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02/15/2008 04:11:10 PM · #26 |
Moose...
I think I would worry if you thought your photos were great. Not that they aren't, but I have found that those that don't like their own shots generally improve at a greater rate cause they want it so bad. Those that think theirs are already good tend to get stuck in a groove and hence... don't improve very much, if at all.
You are your own worst critic. Join the club. Most (actually all) of the photos I have entered for challenges here do not meet my expectations... and LOL obviously not anyone else's either... but at close to rollover, they are still the best I can do to them at the time.
Your Flikr pictures are nice. Some post processing could do wonders. Some of the better ones just appear a little flat, but using Photoshop, Paintshop Pro or any of the other pp software could change that easily, just don't ask me how. If I did know...I would probably have a ribbon or two in my profile by now! :)
Your photos are well setup and the subject and arrangement are too. You have a good eye. I think the words "fine tuning" are what is needed here. Drive on, soldier! You are closer than you think!
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02/15/2008 04:50:18 PM · #27 |
| Haven't read all the responses, so not sure if this has been suggested yet, but find a local photography club and join it. If it's anything like the ones in my area (two of which I belong to) they usually offer a focused presentation each month, and at least one competition a month. I learn a lot during the presentations; I learn even more during the competitions, when a judge (always some highly respected member of the photography scene) sits and gives specific critique on the photos. DPC is a great place, but I have learned more in 6 months there than I have here in 2 years, mostly because of what's taught during the presentations and the lessons learned from hearing the critiques in person. |
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02/15/2008 04:51:29 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Moose408:
...As for post-processing...I don't know what to change on my image to make it look good. I follow along on video tutorials so I know all the steps and as I watch it happen I say, yeah that looks better, but when it comes to my own photos I don't know what to try. Is it the saturation that is the problem, should I adjust the levels, or curves? Which area should I lighten vs. darken? etc.
My shooting time is limited and typically the only time I can go out an shoot is mid-day so perhaps I should focus on shooting something else that doesn't rely on outside light... |
Post-processing: you want to start out with a decent exposure (CameraRAW settings and levels are the first/easiest tools to address this). Levels (and curves), especially when combined with blending modes are also excellent contrast tools. Which areas to lighten/darken (again, levels and/or curves combined with blending modes), is something (like all else) that should be dictated by each individual image. Look at the foreground, this area here and that there: is the detail discernible, too brightly reflective, are the whites blown out at the top of the railing? Does the image need contrast/pop? What will happen to saturation and shadows if you increase the contrast here, there or uniformly? Try it out, try everything, go to extremes, so can see what the effects will do. Then go back and mute, fade, reduce, deduce and fine-tune.
Is there a particular look you want for this image? Yes, you took it at high noon, but would it look better at dawn, dusk under moonlight. Would it be more interesting with stronger reds to bring out the rust there or muted to reveal the wood?
Is there enough contrast for a black and white, enough surface texture, emotional interest?
I'd ask questions of each shot, play, try, exaggerate, reduce, see what gives and learn from the image itself. Compare the versions you create, select and narrow your selections to learn what you love.
If you shoot at midday, watch your exposure on bright and reflective surfaces (water, grass, a white shirt). I like to use a spot meter for this. Alternately, you can point the camera at covered (shady) areas and expose more evenly or... go out on cloudy days, increase your ISO a little and get great images (waterfalls are particularly suited for overcast conditions). |
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02/15/2008 05:03:54 PM · #29 |
Never known the Master  zeuszen offer so much advice or speak so much! The advice is always great, sometimes cryptic, but sound.
Follow the Master, Moose :)) |
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02/15/2008 05:10:13 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by SteveJ:
Never known the Master zeuszen offer so much advice or speak so much! The advice is always great, sometimes cryptic, but sound.
Follow the Master, Moose :)) |
Well, it's the end of the week and raining. There's no master here. |
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02/15/2008 05:11:52 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by SteveJ:
Never known the Master zeuszen offer so much advice or speak so much! The advice is always great, sometimes cryptic, but sound.
Follow the Master, Moose :)) |
Well, it's the end of the week and raining. There's no master here. |
You're right:) Okay Master:) |
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02/15/2008 05:15:11 PM · #32 |
I am the first to admit I am not the best - or anywhere near the mediocre - when it comes to photography. I don't do well here (even I don't vote my images high when I look at what else is out there) and I was getting kind of low. So I joined a local camera club and - eh! voila! - I am still not very good at digital projections but my prints are up there with the best of them!
Why?
Because it made me think about the whole process and what I wanted out of photography - and I realised that I *like* the printing process as much as the work behind conceiving and taking the original images. Net result: a much happier photographer who is not really any better but who has rediscovered his love for the art as I was reminded of the whole process, and not just a part.
Moral? Listen to the wise words of zeuszen (among others) and then get with people in the real as well as the virtual world. Clubs and GTGs make a real difference and listening and watching others is often all you will need to move you on. After all, I am living proof that you can get away with very little talent :-) |
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02/15/2008 05:23:58 PM · #33 |
You're right in one way, Carl. But talent isn't everything. Digital photography is harder than film is a lot of ways. I used to take my films to a processor and get prints back. Now, I have to do it all myself.
The one beauty with digital is it is all your work. Practice makes perfect:))
Why haven't you put your name down for the London GTG?? |
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02/15/2008 08:20:43 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by Moose408:
My shooting time is limited and typically the only time I can go out an shoot is mid-day so perhaps I should focus on shooting something else that doesn't rely on outside light. |
Well that doesn't help. Around here, the midday light is the worst of the entire day, wouldn't surprise me if the same is true where you are. Do you have days off where you could shoot at other times of day?
As you said, another avenue is to try things that don't rely on the outside light. For example you could try things around home - still life, macro shots if you have the equipment (warning: can be addictive!), portraits using softened window light.
In the old days of film, you were considered to be doing quite well if on a roll of 36 exposures, you had one really great shot and six good ones. In these days of being able to shoot off lots of digital frames, I'd expect the success rates to be lower.
Another option - use a tripod, even in scenarios that don't need it. It forces you to slow down, which can help you think about composition. Also, if you can find someone else to go out shooting who is also a keen learner, you can help and learn from each other. I had a group of friends a few years back who enjoyed going out on shoots - everyone was willing to share their knowledge, learn from each other, share bits of inspiration; I found it very helpful, sharing my ideas forced me to think more about them, and sharing other peoples' ideas gave me more to think about.
I'm personally a big fan of doing as much as possible in-camera rather than post-processing |
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02/15/2008 09:30:29 PM · #35 |
I haven't read the entire thread, but have not seen anyone mention about landscape shooting, to just get the camera and tripod ready, and on the scene, and when that's done, just stop and look at the details within the scene for some undiscovered treasures to shoot. There are many times when I shoot several dozen or a hundred or so images, only to find that the jewels are the ones of some of the details in the overall scene.
The opposite is also true. Sometimes I go after a detail, but I always try to get in at least a couple of shots of the whole scene. Sometimes one of the overviews is the best of the bunch.
I have also found that there are times when the early or late light is like magic and I shoot several very good images in 30 minutes, all different aspects and light on the same scene. Two of my best 3 scores here were shot in just 10 minutes on the scene.
My best say is to just keep plinking away, and work on learning how the people here process the images, and develop your own style.
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02/15/2008 09:40:52 PM · #36 |
| Just wanted to reiterate what someone else already mentioned - try a polarizing filter, especially if you must shoot at midday and/or if you want to shoot water. The polarizer is one filter whose effect cannot be duplicated in post processing. It will help with some of the "flatness" people have commented on and also reduce reflections from the water. |
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02/15/2008 10:10:17 PM · #37 |
One thing you can do is sit down with images you like: books by photographers you admire, images that "sing" to you. This is not to learn to copy their style, but instead to be patiently introspective and studious. Study an image that moves you--then ask yourself what about this image is making it work for you. This can be many things: subject, forms, shapes, lighting, tone, etc. Then do this with another image, and so on. This gives you a better sense of exactly what Moves you. Then you go looking for that when you shoot. And you learn how to achieve that feeling from your own images instead of only someone else's.
Periodically, do this same study of your own images: the ones you are most pleased with.
Do NOT measure yourself or your images by the scores here--EVER. Treat that as a game, and look only for the comments that constructively help you to get better, or comments that reveal to you that someone you never met has seen and been moved by your image in the way it moved you. This is the thing worthy of seeking.
I changed to 4x5 view cameras from 35mm many many years ago: the "limitation" this imposed was that I could not go out and shoot 100-200 shots in an outing--maybe 10-15 on a good day. When you have that "limitation", you spend time studying the subject, choosing the shot carefully, composing carefully. I am kinda slow-witted and my reflexes can be measured with a calendar, so this method suited me well. And, I got more satisfying results in a 10-15 image day than a 200 image day with 35mm.
Having recently dived into the digital world, I find that it is TOO EASY to point and snap and walk away with, as you mentioned, hundreds of shots in a single day. This is not actually a good thing: you cannot assess that many images in any practical way, and it is a "get lucky" approach (akin to taking digital video then hunting later for frame grabs). You might impose limits on yourself: My camera will BE on a tripod. I will stop at "x" images.
I suggest that, when you get someplace, try to fire off a few shots to "get it out of your system". If the location/subject/lighting permits, stop and just look. Sit and gaze. Let it soak in. Do the same thing you did with the images at home: study the scene that caught your eye--ask yourself what exactly caught your eye. Often, I find that I end up moving in very close and taking a shot of some small element that is the real thing that is singing to me.
On a really good day, this sort of thing snowballs on itself, and you are in the 'zone'. When this happens, shoot and shoot and shoot.
Then shoot some more.
Above all: shoot for yourself, for your own approval, from your own heart. Enjoy it. And be patient with yourself.
Message edited by author 2008-02-15 22:17:51. |
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05/01/2008 06:14:53 PM · #38 |
Wow... 2 months ago you ( Moose408) complained that you sucked at photography and now look at you... A proud owner of a brand new blue ribbon. Congratulations!!! |
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05/01/2008 07:09:33 PM · #39 |
It can certainly be about what you're shooting also. I get very frustrated taking landscape photos; it's very difficult for me. But I have a good eye for closeup work, portraits, and event photography.
Landscapes, in my opinion, are extremely difficult, especially if you live somewhere with boring scenery like I do (it's all trees and nothing is flat).
Find an area you're strong in and master it, then you can start improving in other areas. |
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05/01/2008 07:15:59 PM · #40 |
As long as this was bumped. I'm sure it's happened before, but I personally have not seen anyone improve so much in such a short time. I am curious how much time and effort has been going into getting to this point so quick. Very impressive.
Message edited by author 2008-05-01 19:16:46.
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05/01/2008 07:23:26 PM · #41 |
So a couple of questions, is it normal to take hundreds of photos and only have a couple that you like?
I don't think its abnormal, I take hundreds of shots myself and only come up with 2 or three that I really like. There are always some others that I keep because I think I might be able to play with them. On the shots that I really want to be good, I take my time framing the shot and usually take it at multiple exposures (bracketing)just to be on the safe side and even then I may not get the results I wanted. If I get one truly good shot out of 100, I'm happy. It's a truly lucky or ungodly skilled photographer that gets every shot perfect. |
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05/01/2008 08:57:46 PM · #42 |
Does anyone find this kinda weird that the OP said he thinks he sucks at PS and takes crappy pictures and yet just won a blue for the odd challenge. hahaha
WTG man not sure what you did but whatever it was it worked.
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05/01/2008 09:07:10 PM · #43 |
Moose,
Congratulations on the "blue".
I am sorry that I am not much of a poster, more of a forum lurker.
However you have inspired me to recall an article a few years back where a now prominent world class photographer ( can't remember who) took a year of self imposed study to learn composition, photography and the "art of seeing".
As I recall he would go to the same place in his back yard each day. close his eyes, and turn around a couple of times, then ever so quickly he would open his eyes and close them again to evaluate the resulting view that presented itself each time. The idea was to analyse the shapes, areas of contrast and elements of composition that prevailed after his eyes closed. by doing this every day for a year (or maybe it was a week) the person was able to get a real sense of the visual elements that make for a great image.
For me, learning composition, visual impact and the "art of seeing" has become easier with the advent of digital viewing screens on the back of our cameras. As a part time photography instructor, I try to encourage students to first "find the light" look around the scene and decide where to position the camera so that the light is creating the mood, then hold the camera to your eye or with Live View watch the screen and move the camera to compose the image. Remember that most great images have a clear subject and any distraction to that subject must be removed by depth of field, camera angle, lack of illumination, cropping or Photoshop.
Have a clear idea of what your subject is then create the image.
One final thought on distraction (and I am the Guru of distraction). A great image is about what others see in it, not what you see in it.
Some of my personal favourite shots are great to me for all the wrong reasons. while I was taking the photo my favourite tune was on the radio, it was the first sunny day in two weeks, I had just finished a great breakfast and my visa was all paid off. None of that counts. It's all about what others see and they just see that 2 dimensional image.
For a really great explanation of composition, type "Photographic Composition" in Wikipedia.com
I am humbled and impressed with the calibre of posts and replies to the DP Forums. This is the place for you to learn great photography.
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05/01/2008 09:50:34 PM · #44 |
| Moose...just join Team Suck in our Monkey House. We're all very nice people, helpful and supportive and no, our photos do not necessarily suck...there are many ribbon winners amongst us. Check us out! |
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05/01/2008 09:59:01 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by yospiff:
As long as this was bumped. I'm sure it's happened before, but I personally have not seen anyone improve so much in such a short time. I am curious how much time and effort has been going into getting to this point so quick. Very impressive. |
I tend to go overboard with any new hobby and have really dove into photography. I'm studying like crazy. I spend at least 2 hours a day reading about photography, plus another hour a day listening to photography podcasts.
DPC has been a HUGE help, not so much in teaching the specifics, but in pointing out what I need to study.
First Entry - Bread
My first entry ever was the Bread entry. I had no real idea what I was doing, I knew I wanted a shallow DOF and good light and that was all I was trying for. I took a few inside and everything had a yellow cast so I decided to take it outside for better light. I thought I had taken a good photo, but as soon as I saw mine compared to others I realized how wrong I was. The comments for my photo helped me greatly however. I had one comment that said my lighting was flat. I didn't know what this meant so that is what I went off to study.
2nd Entry - Peace
I had learned about flat lighting so I decided to move the light off to the side for this photo. Comments back were harsh shadows and focus issues. So I go off to learn about softening light. There was also a comment about post-processing so I really dove into learning about Photoshop.
3rd Entry - Color on Color
I thought I had learned about soft lighting. I had what a I thought was a great idea. I took photos every night for 4 nights and couldn't make anything that looked halfway decent. Gave up on the idea and was browsing through some photos and saw something about painting with light. I played around with that for a couple of nights, applied some of newly learned Photoshop skills and broke the 6.0 barrier. I thought I knew what I was doing.
The following entries proved that I didn't but I haven't let that stop me. I still try to learn something new about photography everyday. About 3 weeks ago I started applying Strobist techniques and that has helped significantly with the quality of light in my photos. I'm still just learning and make a lot of mistakes and have a lot of opportunity for improvement but it's coming along.
My biggest issue right now is capturing what's in my mind's eye. I know what shot I want, I can visualize it perfectly, but it comes out looking nothing like what I visualized. Often it's the lighting, sometimes it's the composition. I just keep plugging away and hope that I figure it out.
Lately the biggest thing I've gotten from DPC and the comments I get are the ability to look at my photos with a critical eye. I can now reject photos that I would have submitted a month ago and go back and re-shoot them. I often know what comments I'm going to get now, even though I don't know how to fix them the fact that I can recognize them is a huge step.
Message edited by author 2008-05-01 21:59:20. |
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05/01/2008 10:07:08 PM · #46 |
Moose408 I just looked at you flicker link. Out of the 12 photo's posted, IMO, 4 of them are very good and most of the others are good. Four out of twelve is 1/3 and thats not bad. A little tweaking on the processing and they should pop.
Don't worry... your doing good. Something I have taught myself while going out taking pictures. Even though I have a particular shot(s) in mind, I'm always on the lookout for the hidden gems that I sometime over look while focusing on what I set out to shoot.
ETA: I know it's easy to say don't worry about your score here, but that's hard to do. In the free study that is in the voting stage now, I feel I have the best photograph I have taken in a long time. It also came out of the camera (POV, Light, Focus, DOF, and Composition) just like I wanted it to. The processing technique I did achieved exactly what I was going for and the title seems to fit very well. Does that equate into a good score? no, it has fallen more that a half of a point today alone. So what we think looks good on the real world stage may not be what the vast amount of voters think. Who's right? thats a debate for later but if you like your photos and how you process them, you are doing good. Most of the photos in challenges are very good but receive a sub-average score just because they are not the DPC-Norm
Message edited by author 2008-05-01 22:14:27. |
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05/01/2008 11:30:04 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by SDW:
Most of the photos in challenges are very good but receive a sub-average score just because they are not the DPC-Norm |
So true. You do have to evaluate them based on other things, and figure out if if the shot is lacking or if it was a good entry that just did not have broad appeal. My own Freestudy entry was getting some high votes this morning and then it dropped over the day to a mid 5. I know it's good, but I also knew when I submitted it that it was not the sort of look that would be appealing to everyone. My recent macro entry was different. When I was reviewing my shots from that day I saw the sort of thing that I know scores well, and it did. As good as it is, I like my freestudy entry better.
Remember, DPC standards are high and also the result of mass averages. Something that scores in the 5's here is usually a very good shot somewhere else.
Sort of on a related note, I did a quick spreadsheet to see if my scores have improved over 54 challenges.
[thumb]675277[/thumb]
Interesting. My scores meandered around in the high 4's and 5's for a while, then after I got some 6's, I see wild swings in scores. I have been experimenting sometimes, and other times I'm after comments or humor value instead of high scores. I think it does show some upward trend, but not as clearly as with some others here. Hmmm...
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05/01/2008 11:46:43 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by SDW:
[ Most of the photos in challenges are very good but receive a sub-average score just because they are not the DPC-Norm |
The DPC definitely has a norm and I submitted my winning Odd II photo knowing that it fit within in that norm. My Health Food entry was also picked to fit within that norm and it's going to ribbon too. It's been a interesting trying to fit the norm and I've learned a lot from it. Not sure if I should continue doing so or not. |
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05/02/2008 12:04:17 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by Moose408:
The DPC definitely has a norm and I submitted my winning Odd II photo knowing that it fit within in that norm. My Health Food entry was also picked to fit within that norm and it's going to ribbon too. It's been a interesting trying to fit the norm and I've learned a lot from it. Not sure if I should continue doing so or not. |
I think you nailed it. In combination with busting your butt to learn the skills. I'm very curious to see what you produce when you are shooting what you want. However, the guys that can be original and shoot what they want while still producing ribbons are the ones I need to keep an eye out for.
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05/02/2008 12:21:50 AM · #50 |
| quit your winnin you suck less than i do and i got more glass!!!!!! |
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