Certificate vs. Degree - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

01/24/2008 01:48:06 AM · #1

Okay, this question may seem a bit premature, but I tend to move through time mentally a lot more quickly than I do physically. I also have some big decisions to make that will need to be made in the next couple of months (by April) and I'd like to really start thinking on them.

As you may recall (here), back in the fall I applied for my University's Photography program and was rejected with a fantastic form letter. Since I can't take any art classes without being accepted as an art major, I've decided to take the course offered by the New York Institute of Photography.

What I'm trying to decide is if I should reapply to the photography program in fall if I've made good progress or if there is really likely no point in doing so since I'm going through NYIP. If I don't reapply to the photography program, I'm going to have to decide if I want to pursue anything else or just let school go altogether, but I know that's probably way more personal than you guys can help with. ;)

So... what do y'all think?

dwterry

Canon EOS-1D Mark III

01/24/2008 07:05:06 AM · #2

I think .... learn all that you can, any way that you can. :-)

NYIP is one way to learn. Joining your local PPA (professional photographer's association) and attending their classes and seminars is another. Even simply hanging out here at DPC can prove to be beneficial to your art.

And the best way to learn is doing. So if you can get an apprenticeship with another photographer in your area, I think you will learn by doing and learn tons faster than at any school. And while you won't have a degree when you're done, you'll still be hireable by any studio looking for the talent you have to offer. Or you can even go out on your own and start your own company.

School is great. I'm not knocking it. I'd go back to school if I could. All I'm saying is that school isn't the only way to learn. And a degree isn't always necessary to get a job.

Morgan

Nikon D800

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 28-70mm f/2.8D IF-ED

01/24/2008 07:09:17 AM · #3

Hi Charlene,

First of all, forget the idea of letting school go altogether, that would be a colossal mistake. The world is a highly competitive place and for you to take your rightful place in it demands that you equip yourself with the right tools. A well-founded education is a key success criteria in life. So, go to school and you will be happy that you did in the long run.

With regards to your question, I need to wonder why the University declined your application? Is there anyway that you and dig deeper and understand their reasons for rejecting you as a student? Was it based upon grades? Portfolio? Quotas? This information will help you to better prepare yourself by correcting any deficiency for the next application.

When I was a teen, I was rejected by a prestigious University here in Toronto. All I wanted to do was be a photographer. My dream seemed out of reach. However, I was accepted at a lesser College and started studies there. In short order, I was accepted at a Prestigious University to study photography in Tokyo, Japan. So, I transferred and finished my last two years in Japan. There was no better education and the rejection at the Toronto University turned out to be a blessing in disgust. Later in my life, when I was working in association with the famed LucusFilms, the very same University that ten years before had rejected me asked that I serve on their Board of Advisers. I did so for four years. I lectured there this month and will do so again in February. So, life can be a full circle at times.

Well, the NYIP has been in business for decades, but it is still not equal to the University degree. There is a large gap when comparing the two. Generally speaking, a certificate is valuable and the focused education is often ideal for self development, so there is nothing wrong with earning a certificate. However, the University degree is a much higher standard and is therefore more prized and respected. A degree provides you with a more rounded education and prepares you to change directions and pursue other options in the future should you so decide.

In my case, I left photography and evolved into the video broadcasting world. After 32 years, I have never regretted the shift and broadcasting and rich media is where I belong. Photography is still a passionate hobby, but that is about all. Even with the degree from Japan.

One idea that still amazes me is the concept that education happens only during certain years. Consider the far more powerful notion of lifelong learning and you will be on a path that may see you earn both the certificate and the degree. Now, that is a powerful combination - a combination of both the practical mechanics and the theoretical concepts. This joint education is vividly better.

There are more than one University that teach photography and there are Colleges that may allow you to two-step into the University with an Associates of Arts degree first. So, continue investigating your options and shape an education pathway that is a perfect fit for you.

Best wishes for much success in whatever you decide.

Cheers,
Michael

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

01/24/2008 04:21:01 PM · #4

Thanks so much for the replies! I guess I could have provided a little bit more information.

I was rejected by the University program because I was not 'at the level expected of students' (paraphrased), but it was the standard form letter that they sent out. I was trying to findone of the faculty in the program to talk to me, but they all 'reminded' me they have a strict policy against discussing applicant portfolios outside of whether or not you're accepted, so... as far as I know, I'm plain old not good enough.

I received my Associate of Liberal Arts degree a year or so ago, so if I'm going to work on my Bachelor's, I need to find the right program to attend that works around my work schedule in some way, which, unfortunately, my current university does not.

Unless I intend/can manage to get into the photography program, I'll have to face the decision about whether or not I want a different degree just to have it, but I know that's really going to be a personal decision.

It sounds like the certificate program would serve as a good fore runner to a degree, but that a degree really is preferable for photography? But even better than that may be work experience instead?

Edit: by the by - thank you SO much for sharing your story! It's good to know that you've done so well after being rejected, too - I might actually have a chance somehow! And Japan - that's awesome! I would love to hear more about your time there (fascinated by Japanese culture).

Message edited by author 2008-01-24 16:22:01.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

01/24/2008 05:16:39 PM · #5

I have to ask, why would you not consider a photo degree program at another school? Are you that enamored with the program at the Uni you're at now?

As for you not being good enough, I think that often in arts degree programs, they look for students who align with the department's "style" as much or more than someone who is "good enough".

A Bachelors degree in any subject has greater value than some kind of certificate, but you should think twice before undertaking a degree program just to get a degree. If you want to study photography (or whatever) find a degree program somewhere and do it.

Sigma 70-200mm f/2.8 EX DG APO IF for Nikon

01/24/2008 05:26:04 PM · #6

Hi, Spazmo! Actually, I'm totally willing to look at other programs at other universities - that's actually how I found NYIP! I've been having a hard time finding a good university distance program for both (well, not FOR both, but both individually) photography and psychology. I looked into a bunch of places on the thread that...errr... Man_Called_Horse?... has been updating and it's tough going. A LOT of programs insist on you physically showing up and moving just isn't an option for me right now. Do you happen to know of any you can point me towards?

amathiasphoto

Nikon D300

01/24/2008 05:27:46 PM · #7

Certificates and degrees really mean nothing if you are trying to get a job in photography, from my experience. Go in with a "wow portfolio" and know what you are talking about and you'll likely get the job. Go in not knowing, or no good book, and it isn't gonna happen. So it boils down to this: If NYIP helps get you those "wow images" then thats great. If the University gives you better "wow images", then that is the route you need to go.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/24/2008 05:45:55 PM · #8

Originally posted by Morgan:

... the rejection ... turned out to be a blessing in disgust.

Wherever you went to school, that's a beautiful turn of phrase. ;-)

Morgan

Nikon D800

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 28-70mm f/2.8D IF-ED

01/25/2008 07:09:30 AM · #9

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Morgan:
... the rejection ... turned out to be a blessing in disgust.

Wherever you went to school, that's a beautiful turn of phrase. ;-)

My Mother is from Newfoundland here in Canada. They are the most amazing people in North America. The established culture there is well over 500 years old and the European / Nordic arrival predates Columbus' landing at Plymouth Rock by a couple of hundred years (aka Vikings). So, it is an old culture and is built heavily on an Irish legacy. As a result, the everyday language is rather foreign to the English we all speak in Canada and the USA. As a result, it is chocked full of colourful and vibrant terms and phrases. As her son, I simply added a few of her expressions to my own vocabulary and lexicon. I do not even realize that I use them anymore as they have permeated into my everyday use. I suspect that we all inherent traits and characteristics from our parents? So, that is one of her expressions. It is even more powerful when spoken with the think Newfie accent.

If there ever was a place for North Americans to visit for a vacation, it is Newfoundland! Here is just one example of what I am referring too...

9/11 Photographs from Newfoundland

American story: Art for hospitality
Bob Dotson profiles traveler Jim Mott, who paints in exchange for lodging
By Bob Dotson
TODAYShow.com contributor
updated 11:31 a.m. ET, Wed., Jan. 2, 2008
Few of us willingly go out beyond the limits of our settled lives. Certainly, most would be reluctant to do what Jim Mott does. The successful, middle-aged artist travels the country trading paintings for hospitality. Stays with total strangers. Scary, you say?

We found Jim Mott wandering through a fading afternoon in Wisconsin last fall. A shy man. Quiet. Not the kind you would expect could travel through life on his wits and a paintbrush, but he has managed to safely explore 29 states, 15 thousand miles, so far. Cost him nothing but gas.

Along the way he's experienced some things the comfortable majority will never feel. Met people who seem content. Happy to share their hospitality. Open their homes to him.

We are a giving people. We do stories about that all the time, but rarely do we report about what the world gives to us. And that is just as important.

Mottâ��s quest reminds me of a story I did in Newfoundland, Canada, where unemployment in some villages hovers as high as 50 percent.

But that remote island in the North Atlantic â�� Canada's poorest province â�� set a mark for giving to us, worthy of the history books.

It began on September 11, 2001, after the attack on the World Trade Center. Pilots flying from Europe were told to put their planes on the ground as soon as possible.

Thirty-eight jets â�� with more than 6,000 passengers â�� ended up in Gander, Newfoundland.

School bus drivers were on strike back then, but they left their picket lines and worked 24 hours straight to take the stranded travelers to nearby towns.

Passengers thought they were being dropped off at the end of the earth, but they couldn't have been made to feel more at home. Churches took in those who could not find hotel rooms. Travelers, anxious to know about events, found ... they had a television set. They had actually put cable wherever the passengers were going to be.

The tiny coastal town of Lewisporte canceled classes, so their visitors could use school computers to send messages home.

Since luggage was still locked on the planes, passengers were given coins to wash their clothes at the Laundromat.

Those who needed prescriptions were taken to pharmacies for free medicine, while townspeople worked through the night, baking them fresh bread.

Seventy-six people slept in church pews.

One couple â�� honeymooners â�� got the choir loft all to themselves.

"If the passengers had simply stayed in that church until their planes were ready to leave, there wouldn't be much of a story (lots of towns help in times of crisis).

But the people of Lewisporte pulled the travelers out; took them around the bay in their boats, then invited them into their homes.

Susan and Trevor Tetford took in two New York City couples with babies.

Trevor tossed his keys to a total stranger and told him to take a tour.

They became close friends, even though they were together only three days during that terrible week in September.

When their Delta flight was finally able to leave Newfoundland, passengers passed the hat. Two hundred and eighteen ordinary people pledged $35,000 to start a scholarship fund for Lewisporte's children.

One fourth of the children who start school in Lewisporte do not graduate high school. So, the money will be used as an incentive â�� awarded not just to a star student or two â�� but divided among every senior who makes straight A's.

All this happened just because some people in a faraway place were kind to strangers â�� and those strangers happened to be Americans.

Â© 2007 MSNBC Interactive

Message edited by author 2008-01-25 07:10:30.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

01/25/2008 09:42:52 AM · #10

Originally posted by EducatedSavage:

I doubt that you'll find any degree programs in photography that don't have a residency requirement. If you're getting a psych degree anyway, you might consider taking some time off to go through Hallmark Institute of Photography. It's only a 10 month program. Very intense from what I hear, but still, only 10 months.

You don't say why moving to attend another school is not an option and frankly, it's none of my business, but sometimes chasing a dream requires sacrificing something else.

The other posters who say you don't need a degree to succeed in photography are absolutely right. However, a degree, in any subject, has value far beyond the skills and knowledge acquired in the classes taken.

robs

Canon EOS R6 Mk II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

01/25/2008 10:14:25 AM · #11

I probably have a different view from most but I find a lot of degree programs are just a waste of time as far as content compared to the real world [more so in the US where degree's have all this basket weaving stuff included] - my field is IT not photg but I think it applies more so to photg. I have worked with a lot of new IT grads over the years and like most things the good ones at the job have something that lets them just understand the best way to do things regardless of where they placed in the class - maybe it's talent but I think it's more just a certain way of thinking. Hard to believe now but there was a time that IT got a lot of very clever people because the $ were good. There is not really a correlation between the sharpest and the best at the work.

Catch is you gota have the paper to get in the door. There is little doubt to me that the paper has got me in doors that would have been closed otherwise.

Photg is a little different in that it's mostly about the images, so great images open doors. Would there be more doors open with the paper and great images? - probably.