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01/23/2008 03:04:24 PM · #51
Originally posted by Gordon:


Sure we could go out and buy tilt/shift lenses and maybe work around it

No you can't that would be an unfair advantage an I will complain loudly :P
01/23/2008 03:13:31 PM · #52
Originally posted by Bear_Music:


Now, I understand Brad to be saying that he'd wish we couldn't use ANY of this newfangled image manipulation technology in our submissions, and I don't understand that. But then, he's a master mechanic who tools around in a beat-up, completely unmodified 1960's VW bug, so clearly that's his general mindset; "keep it simple, resist the bells and whistles."

For one, it's a 1973 ;)
Actually you have it all wrong Robert. I embraced technology and what it can do for me.

In the course of daily life, individuality is an important thing to me. Unless one is wealthy, most drive around in same/similar vehicles. I don't always like blending in, following along in the Lemming ways of society so to speak. That car is not the most comfortable to drive, has no ammenities, but it has what no other car on the road has - memories. The sentimental value of it to me is priceless, as I drove it in high school, sat it in in the showroom, and was the very first car my mother owned and drove, until she gave it to me a couple years ago. I much prefer driving the 2000 Mercedes ML320 AWD I drive now, with all it's comforts, safety features and it's whistles & bells.

If a cross-country race were to take place, it would hardly be a challenge pitting them against each other. Now a cross-country race with only 1973 Bugs, unmodified, with an automatic stick transmission would be another, and would be a level playing field.

Message edited by author 2008-01-23 15:13:52.
01/23/2008 03:16:02 PM · #53
yup, side challenges are great though.
01/23/2008 03:18:20 PM · #54
Originally posted by goodman:

yup, side challenges are great though.


Yeah I can't wait for those to start!
01/23/2008 03:28:05 PM · #55
Originally posted by Gordon:

[It might be a challenge, but it is also ignoring most of the standard tools that architectural photographers use.
If it is a learning site, then allowing standard tools like perspective shifts, skew adjustments and HDR to be used, which are the basics for architectural work these days, would make more sense than banning them in the architecture challenge.


See I think thats where most people get confused, this isnt a learning site anymore. Its a shame too, cause when I started it was a learning site, and the forums further back then that were just amazing. Now its not even close to being a learning site.

MattO
01/23/2008 03:29:36 PM · #56
Originally posted by Simms:



Thats confirmed it, when I actually find myself agreeing with Gordon, the time for a break has definitely come! :)


Take a break if you feel like one, just make sure to return. :)
01/23/2008 03:34:02 PM · #57
Originally posted by biteme:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

No kidding. My jaw hit the floor when I saw this challenge. As a retired professional architectural photographer, I'm perhaps more aware than most how downright silly this is. The photography of architecture is one of the most technically demanding fields there is. HDRI imaging was tailor-made for this subject.

R.


Robert, can't you see this as a challenge? Photographing architecture without the HDR-stuff?


And without the ability to use perspective correction? Of course it's a challenge. The last architecture challenge was done in basic also. It's not a big deal, really it isn't. But "architecture" is a subject that cries out for advanced editing, even IF we didn't have HDRI, because of perspective issues. Hardly any of us have tilt/shift lenses (I certainly don't), so we need PS control over that aspect to "do it right"...

R.
01/23/2008 03:35:00 PM · #58
I'm new to this site and to photography in general, beyond the occasional snapshot... but am pretty excited. I have wondered myself (during the past week)if there are other sites out there where less post processing takes place... Not for anything, but fear I will not become toooooo photoshop savvy, even over time... However, I'm too excited with this one and the challenges to go searching...and will submit photos which will be ok (in my mind) without tooooo much tampering.

ps - What does HDRI stand for?
01/23/2008 03:35:48 PM · #59
Originally posted by Brad:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:


Now, I understand Brad to be saying that he'd wish we couldn't use ANY of this newfangled image manipulation technology in our submissions, and I don't understand that. But then, he's a master mechanic who tools around in a beat-up, completely unmodified 1960's VW bug, so clearly that's his general mindset; "keep it simple, resist the bells and whistles."

For one, it's a 1973 ;)
Actually you have it all wrong Robert. I embraced technology and what it can do for me.

In the course of daily life, individuality is an important thing to me. Unless one is wealthy, most drive around in same/similar vehicles. I don't always like blending in, following along in the Lemming ways of society so to speak. That car is not the most comfortable to drive, has no ammenities, but it has what no other car on the road has - memories. The sentimental value of it to me is priceless, as I drove it in high school, sat it in in the showroom, and was the very first car my mother owned and drove, until she gave it to me a couple years ago. I much prefer driving the 2000 Mercedes ML320 AWD I drive now, with all it's comforts, safety features and it's whistles & bells.

If a cross-country race were to take place, it would hardly be a challenge pitting them against each other. Now a cross-country race with only 1973 Bugs, unmodified, with an automatic stick transmission would be another, and would be a level playing field.


Hopefully you realized that was a sort of tongue-in-cheek comment I made? Anyway, I've BEEN THERE with you, and my firsthand experience is that you're sort of the opposite of a consumer-culture guy :-)

R.
01/23/2008 03:36:43 PM · #60
Originally posted by Iraklis:


ps - What does HDRI stand for?


High Dynamic Range Imaging: making of several different exposures and blending them together in post processing to control the tonal range of the image.

R.
01/23/2008 03:39:51 PM · #61
Thanks for the support everyone who PM'd me, I am pretty sure that "Birds" challenge will be my last for a while (if I shoot something worthy of entering).

One thing to bear in mind, last years "Best of 2006" had over 700 entires, this years is below 500.. So maybe the site is starting to scare people away.. As some of those who have emailed me said, the `rant` (although it isnt a rant) sounds better coming from someone who has proved themselves over the past few months, stating that rulesets are getting a bit too hard to keep up with, than coming from someone who isn't doing so well in challenges and it coming across as more of a case of "sour grapes"..

I still think the site is a great place to be, but at the moment its not so hot for me and where I want to take my photography.

Does this make sense??



Message edited by author 2008-01-23 15:42:58.
01/23/2008 03:41:08 PM · #62
Thanks Bear. Sounds complicated.
01/23/2008 03:41:39 PM · #63
Originally posted by Simms:

Thanks for the support everyone who PM'd me, I am pretty sure that "Birds" challenge will be my last for a while (if I shoot something worthy of entering).

One thing to bear in mind, last years "Best of 2006" had over 700 entires, this years is below 500.. So maybe the site is starting to scare people away.. As some of those who have emailed me said, the `rant` (although it isnt a rant) sounds better coming from someone who has proved themselves over the past few months, stating that rulesets are getting a bit too hard to keep up with, than coming from someone who isn't doing so well in challenges and it coming across as more of a case of "sour grapes"..

I still think the site is a great place to be, but at the moment its not so hot for me and where I want to take my photography.

Does this make sense??


Everyone needs a break sometime. Enjoy your time away and come back with new eyes for the site. ;o)
01/23/2008 03:55:25 PM · #64
I have been walking the fence as well. I don't know if dp has become boring actually, but I have finally concluded that I can't take shots like those that win. I don't have that kind of subject nearby. I also spend too much time behind the computer trying very hard to process my entries in a pleasing manner, and with the hours I spent, and the lack of result in the challenges, I realized it was kind of a negative thing. I mainly found that I was only shooting for challenges, period, and many were far from interesting. I just shot for the sake of entering. I think I am wiser now. I did not reup my membership when it ran out in August of last year. However, due to the best of 2007, I did pay for one month so I could enter. Guess what. It is up for dq because of what I did, so even that was a wasted $5.00. I did not mean to break the rules. I just happened to be lazy, posted an image I had done for another site, without realizing I might have pushed the rules a bit, perhaps using an illegal manuever. I will probably know by tonight, though I fully expect it to be dq'd. So the marraige between myself and dp is now in need of counseling. It ain't workin', and I think the break is imminent. I hope newbies will get excited and learn. I just think that though I am still way behind photographically, dp has not been of much help to me for at least 8 months, which is another reason why I have been on the fence. I might have gotten all I can from it. Now I need to move on.
I'll still be around every so often, but not like before.
01/23/2008 04:04:20 PM · #65
It really IS nice to see the sentiment coming from someone with... umm... well, a better reputation than mine. :D

I think you have to decide what it is you want from DPC and approach it from that direction, and you can't let yourself get distracted. Me, I'm still a total and complete newb and I know that DPC causes a lot of struggle for me. Like you mentioned, us newbs get a skewed idea of what 'good' photography is. I know I had really thought I nailed it in my last challenge and was really disappointed in how I placed, which seems a common theme around here.

I did join a local photograhy club and that has helped correct my perspective quite a lot - while people may have upwards of $25k more equipment than I do, they aren't outpacing me much (and only when that $25k REALLY made the difference and I seriously can't compete with the eagle shots out of raw stubbornness) and they really can't compete when it comes to Photomanipulation (I don't even HAVE Photoshop - I'm using the GIMP).

The one thing I've really noticed that makes me grumpy-pants is the movement of 'average'. I used to consider it an accomplishment if I placed in the top 50% and I find that the same scores that got me into the to 50% are now landing me more around the bottom 30% or 20%. When I started here, a 4.x was a disappointing score and now it seems that 5.x is a disappointment. That's a hard trend to keep up with, but I guess it's a symptom of the general populace scoring generally higher.

I suppose I should have gotten my own rant. Suffice to say - decide what you want from DPC and then take it, but don't expect anything more and don't let the rest get ya. Take a break if you want and try to remember to have fun. Someone suggested to me awhile ago that I needed to revisit why I bought a camera in the first place, so whenever I find myself in a slump I take a lot of pictures of my cats that only I could ever love. :P They hate the flash though....

Message edited by author 2008-01-23 16:06:10.
01/23/2008 04:22:37 PM · #66
Originally posted by Simms:

As some of those who have emailed me said, the `rant` (although it isnt a rant) sounds better coming from someone who has proved themselves over the past few months, stating that rulesets are getting a bit too hard to keep up with, than coming from someone who isn't doing so well in challenges and it coming across as more of a case of "sour grapes"..



This is part of the problem around here. It's OK when someone with a 6+ average expresses their concerns about things that aren't acceptable to them around here. When someone with 5 average complains it's "sour grapes." Everybody is entitled to their opinion around here unless select individuals don't like your opinion then your labeled as a complainer.
01/23/2008 04:34:15 PM · #67
Originally posted by Simms:

One thing to bear in mind, last years "Best of 2006" had over 700 entires, this years is below 500.. So maybe the site is starting to scare people away.. As some of those who have emailed me said, the `rant` (although it isnt a rant) sounds better coming from someone who has proved themselves over the past few months, stating that rulesets are getting a bit too hard to keep up with, than coming from someone who isn't doing so well in challenges and it coming across as more of a case of "sour grapes"..


Well, I certainly respect you as a photographer and quite an accomplished one at that, however I fail to see why or how the rules are scaring people away. One change that in reality doesn't change much at all is scaring people away? Wow, interesting. I've heard of folks being afraid of change, but that's just damn silly if you ask me.

Message edited by author 2008-01-23 16:35:49.
01/23/2008 04:35:45 PM · #68
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:

Originally posted by Simms:

As some of those who have emailed me said, the `rant` (although it isnt a rant) sounds better coming from someone who has proved themselves over the past few months, stating that rulesets are getting a bit too hard to keep up with, than coming from someone who isn't doing so well in challenges and it coming across as more of a case of "sour grapes"..



This is part of the problem around here. It's OK when someone with a 6+ average expresses their concerns about things that aren't acceptable to them around here. When someone with 5 average complains it's "sour grapes." Everybody is entitled to their opinion around here unless select individuals don't like your opinion then your labeled as a complainer.


Well you also have to factor in Simms has been here for a while so that carries more weight then some low scoring newbie who just signed up and already wants to change things.
01/23/2008 04:40:57 PM · #69
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:

Originally posted by Simms:

As some of those who have emailed me said, the `rant` (although it isnt a rant) sounds better coming from someone who has proved themselves over the past few months, stating that rulesets are getting a bit too hard to keep up with, than coming from someone who isn't doing so well in challenges and it coming across as more of a case of "sour grapes"..



This is part of the problem around here. It's OK when someone with a 6+ average expresses their concerns about things that aren't acceptable to them around here. When someone with 5 average complains it's "sour grapes." Everybody is entitled to their opinion around here unless select individuals don't like your opinion then your labeled as a complainer.


Now I know why no-one ever talks to me or answers my posts!! I will wear the label with pride..although no-one else will know cos I don't exist! You have stated exactly how I have felt this past year. Guess, I need to find another site or interest, perhaps back to writing??
01/23/2008 04:58:41 PM · #70
Originally posted by SteveJ:


Now I know why no-one ever talks to me or answers my posts!! I will wear the label with pride..although no-one else will know cos I don't exist! You have stated exactly how I have felt this past year. Guess, I need to find another site or interest, perhaps back to writing??


I'll talk to you! I'm not sure I'm worth much, really, but I can be really chatty some days (those days often coincide with boring days at work).
01/23/2008 05:06:05 PM · #71
I admit that I do get bored with DPC from time to time because it seems like the same type of image wins over and over and over. I'm kind of tired of seeing the liquid splash, the curly paper on the lightbox, the wine glasses on a mirror, the sunsets over very smooth water, etc. But over and over those are the shots that win. I actually have to admit that my entry for the Yellow challenge was an experiment in DPC cliche. I wanted to see if I would score better if I shot a total DPC cliche shot. I purposely looked for something I could shoot on a mirror so that I would have a reflection. I wanted to create a shot that looked totally DPC, just to see how it would score. It ended up at 6.3 and is now my third highest score. I have absolutely no personal connection to that shot at all and it was very simple to shoot, I just shot for the challenge and it ended up scoring higher that shots that I really really put a lot of effort and heart into. That's kind of frustrating and discouraging to me, because I feel like the type of photography that I really love is never going to win a challenge, so sometimes I wonder why I keep entering.

But on the other hand, I have learned SO much from this site. The creativity of some people here absolutely blows me away. It has helped me to think outside the box, and really challenge myself to try something new. I was a little dissapointed by the new HDR rules at first because I have absolutely no idea how to create an image like that and I feel like now I'm at a disadvantage, but then I thought about it some more and realized that there's no reason why I can't LEARN HDR. I'll figure it out. It's just one more thing to challenge myself with and I guess really that's the point of this site and the reason that I keep coming back. And dang it, one of these days I'm going to ribbon, and I'm going to do it with a shot that I really love!!! :)
01/23/2008 05:22:22 PM · #72
I would hesitate to use this year's "Best of 07" challenge as a guage. I certainly would've found something to post if I did not post those in the monthly Free Studies. So I'm sitting this one out as I feel I've posted my cherry picked shots from the months already. Some also don't feel right in re-posting a side challenge shot that's been in their portfolio for months. Didn't feel like digging any deeper for more shots.
01/23/2008 05:33:20 PM · #73
Oh sure, Simms -- take all your blue ribbons and run. {cries}

hehe, just kidding. Needing to take a break is normal. It's human nature and the nature of the internet. Maybe the site is not really challenging for you? For a beginner like me, the presence of experienced, talented photographers is terrific. I think all the shining lights of DPC who stick around are doing a kind of service.* But yeah, you've got to nurture your own self, too. As others have said, take a break, but we hope you'll come back.

- larry in nyc

* (not to get all ass-kissy about it) :-p

Message edited by author 2008-01-23 18:26:08.
01/23/2008 05:33:42 PM · #74
Originally posted by Wenders11:

I admit that I do get bored with DPC from time to time because it seems like the same type of image wins over and over and over. I'm kind of tired of seeing the liquid splash, the curly paper on the lightbox, the wine glasses on a mirror, the sunsets over very smooth water, etc. But over and over those are the shots that win. I actually have to admit that my entry for the Yellow challenge was an experiment in DPC cliche. I wanted to see if I would score better if I shot a total DPC cliche shot. I purposely looked for something I could shoot on a mirror so that I would have a reflection. I wanted to create a shot that looked totally DPC, just to see how it would score. It ended up at 6.3 and is now my third highest score. I have absolutely no personal connection to that shot at all and it was very simple to shoot, I just shot for the challenge and it ended up scoring higher that shots that I really really put a lot of effort and heart into. That's kind of frustrating and discouraging to me, because I feel like the type of photography that I really love is never going to win a challenge, so sometimes I wonder why I keep entering.


Don't loose faith in what you shoot! You have some wonderful shots in your portfolio.

As for the "yellow" shot, beh, not my cup of tea but congrats on the good score. ;)
01/23/2008 05:44:42 PM · #75
I have posted quite a bit on this subject in the green thread //www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=726361 I think we should have a vote on the issue of advanced editing and the new rule change. I don't believe that HDR imaging belongs in the advanced rules. I think advanced rules should be one photo. I do think that special challenges, like the occasional landscape challenge, or the recent river and streams challenge do lend themselves to HDR, and it could be used there as a special rule. I don't think it is fair to have HDR imaging in a Free Study, because it allows a select few to use ten photos, when everyone else can only use one. Thats ten times the megapixels to work with.

I think a vote is in order to see what most of us want in advanced editing.
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