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02/22/2004 11:05:31 PM · #1 |
I've only been in three competitons here, and I'm a little confused about scoring. I've never given out a 1, 2, or a 3. Mostly 4s, 5s, and 6s, some 7's, a few 8's, a couple of 9's and 10's.
However last time I got 21 1s. and a 33 2s, and 54 3s. Many people didn't like the name I gave it. I haven't seen any photos submitted that I would give such low points to. Maybe it is the worst photo of all times... but still, I am confused about scoring, and would appreciate a little advice about judging.
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02/22/2004 11:18:40 PM · #2 |
At a guess I would say the pattern in low votes along with the comments suggest that a lot of people didnt see the connection with the challenge of 'letting go' and voted as if it was off topic.
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02/22/2004 11:19:40 PM · #3 |
There are rules about voting but they are very hard to enforce. I would dare say they are impossible. regardless there is a criteria by which folks are supposed to vote. Meeting the challenge is supposed to be held in the highest regard when voting, followed up by foto techniques such as lighting, composition, etc..
I wouldn;t get yourself too down about the voting patterns. sometimes they work for you & other times they can disappoint you. All in all, if you are pleased with your own shot then nothing any voter scores you should take that away.
Welcome & good luck in future challenges!
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02/23/2004 12:33:00 AM · #4 |
| Don't get discouraged- it's all in the eye of the beholder. Even the best photos rarely get an average score over 8. If you look through the past challenges, you'll find first-place images that got over fifty 10s, yet some people voted those same shots a 3 or worse. Personally, I think that anyone who scores the eventual winner a 1 or 2, deserves an email from a site administrator! That person either doesn't understand the voting process or is purposefully trying to skew the results- neither of which should be acceptable. To me, a 1 is only valid for a horrible shot that also has nothing to do with the challenge, while a 10 is reserved for the truly exceptional image that anyone would be proud of. I try to weight my scores so that average photos get a 5 or 6 and everything else is ranked accordingly. I hope that others agree. |
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02/23/2004 03:15:07 AM · #5 |
Well thanks... I mean I agree, I think ones, twos and threes on a photo in the top dozen or so deserve a rude email, or even a period of time when they can't vote.
But this rude voting may well skew the results. |
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02/23/2004 08:56:32 AM · #6 |
| Someone is rude because they don't have the same taste in photography as the group? Why don't we just eliminate the 1, 2 & 3 off the voting page. That will raise everybody's scores and we'll all be better photographers. |
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02/23/2004 04:36:01 PM · #7 |
| A score of 1 for the winning photo is not an issue of taste. Whether or not you happen to agree with a particular concept or technique, a photo that scores 50 or more 10s is obviously not so horrible that it deserves a 1... there must be some redeeming value! I might not always agree with the top three choices, but I'd probably have each of them rated at least a 6. I'm only suggesting that a person rating a top photo a 1 or 2 (especially without a comment) be sent a query from an administrator asking why. Maybe that person really did find the image terrible, but it could also be that the person thought that 1 was the best possible score or enlisted a friend to skew the results (the same would be true of a photo at the bottom of the pile getting a 10). It's just a follow-up to encourage fairness. |
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02/23/2004 04:37:47 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Someone is rude because they don't have the same taste in photography as the group? Why don't we just eliminate the 1, 2 & 3 off the voting page. That will raise everybody's scores and we'll all be better photographers. |
I don't think that is my beef. I've watched alot of ice skateing and never seen a judge give a 1 or 2. There are just different ways of scoring. Perhaps my question should be, "Ought I give out a some of all numbers?" Just as I am looking for the best in my subjective search, ought I be looking for the worst, and the almost worst? I guess I should, when I think about it. It makes all my higher scores more valuable.
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02/23/2004 04:47:08 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
A score of 1 for the winning photo is not an issue of taste. Whether or not you happen to agree with a particular concept or technique, a photo that scores 50 or more 10s is obviously not so horrible that it deserves a 1... there must be some redeeming value! |
In this cloud pic , one person gave it a 10 and 2 gave it a 9. It's sort of the reverse of what you are saying... here is a photo and over a 100 votes were 3 or below, and these folks gave it a 9 or 10? There should be no redeeming value! lol what a world. But I am going to use low numbers in my voting after reading this thread so thanks.
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02/23/2004 04:53:32 PM · #10 |
You have a scale of 1-10 so use it.
Why give an atrociously, out of focus ,not meeting the challenge pic a score of 3 ?
If it is bad it is bad so score it accordingly. Use the full scale, it gives you more scope for grading how bad or good a shot is.
There...I've said my bit,
Paul. |
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02/23/2004 05:17:40 PM · #11 |
| I think my average score-giving is around 5. When I see a photo I envision it on it's own - say ..in a gallery, not just in the masses at DPC. How would it fair in real life? When you think about it that way, compare it to itself and not to all the others, the scores tend to drop a bit. |
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02/23/2004 05:40:30 PM · #12 |
| I gave you a 3 and left a comment saying why I did. If you'd like more insight on my vote, PM me and I'll share my thoughts. |
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02/23/2004 07:21:29 PM · #13 |
I think part of the problem is with people who do not vote under 4. It appears if you are able to press the shutter release, that is good enough for some people to award you a vote of 3.
Being the average is between 4.5 - 5.5, someone who receives a 4 is put pretty much in the same category as a person who just pressed the shutter release.
If you say you have never given out a 1 or a 2, I would like to show you some pictures and ask why not? The rules state you should vote on each and every image. Given that criteria, what score will you give a picture containing total blackness (2 entries from previous challenges)?
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02/23/2004 07:26:30 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by garrywhite2:
I think part of the problem is with people who do not vote under 4. It appears if you are able to press the shutter release, that is good enough for some people to award you a vote of 3.
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I don't think that people who just "press the shutter" bother to post their photos here. Or seldom do.
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02/23/2004 07:26:36 PM · #15 |
| I give ones to photos which are not photos anymore (overphotoshoped digital collages) |
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02/23/2004 07:38:54 PM · #16 |
| I have never given out a 1 or a 10. To me, no photo is so bad that it deserves a 1. Sure, I have seen plenty I haven't liked but that doesn't mean they deserve a score that low. On the other hand, a 10 would be reserved for what I consider to be the perfect photo. I haven't seen one yet. |
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02/23/2004 07:47:39 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by leskataus:
I have never given out a 1 or a 10. To me, no photo is so bad that it deserves a 1. Sure, I have seen plenty I haven't liked but that doesn't mean they deserve a score that low. On the other hand, a 10 would be reserved for what I consider to be the perfect photo. I haven't seen one yet. |
So I can leave the lens cap on, and safely receive a 2 or 3. Want to see samples of that? Search thru the archives. |
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02/23/2004 07:52:24 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by leskataus:
I have never given out a 1 or a 10. To me, no photo is so bad that it deserves a 1. Sure, I have seen plenty I haven't liked but that doesn't mean they deserve a score that low. On the other hand, a 10 would be reserved for what I consider to be the perfect photo. I haven't seen one yet. |
So you are restricting yourself to a scale of 2-9
I have seen plenty of shots that would have ended up in the waste bin if they had been prints just back from the developers.To give these type of shots scores of 2 and above only encourages them to continue in their methods and not to improve on their shots.
How else will they know the difference between a good or bad photograph?
Paul. |
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02/23/2004 08:07:10 PM · #19 |
The full scale is there to be used... however, the extremes should be reserved for just that. In other words, the scale is a continuum, try not to "vote the extremes", ignoring the 2,3,8 & 9 choices. To me, a "1" is something almost unimaginably bad. I think I've given maybe three or four ones in over 20,000 votes over a year and eight months. I've given maybe a half-dozen tens in the same timeframe; to me a 10 is virtually perfection, and that is a rare thing.
As I've honed my voting technique, my average has gotten closer to 5.5, as I would expect it to.
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02/23/2004 08:15:14 PM · #20 |
A modest proposal...
Lets just change the voting scale. Since no photo deserves a 1, since obviously the person who took it had the intention that it be something really meaningful, we should remove it from the voting options. Leave the number in the list of votes, just disable the link. That way everyone can feel like the could have gotten a one, and therefore their two is somewhat more meaningful.
And lets remove 10. After all, is any photo actually capable of reaching perfection? Surely not. And besides, giving one photo a 10 is hurtful to the person who's photo got a 2. So no 10s.
And since, the unclickable 1 notwithstanding, a 2 is really now the lowest a photo could ever score, some people might not find it enough that they were at least spared a 1, but still feel the sting of receiving the lowest possible score, so 2 should also be eliminated as an option. And of course, 9 is now the ultimate unfair reward, so it should be cast aside as well.
But that leaves similar problems with 3 and 4, and 7 and 8, so lets disable those links as well. This will ensure that every photo gets the recognition it deserves as at least representing the photographer's intention to meaninfully communicate their artistic expression, even if technical details got in the way. Why else would anyone submit a photo to a contest if they hadn't had, in their mind, some deep and thoughful truth which was worthy of recognition.
But, that still leaves a problem. There is still the possibility that some photos might get unfairly judged as being less worthy than others taken by those who just have the luck of being able to afford a better camera, or the unfair advantage of having learned proper technique. After all, it's more important to try than it is to achieve. So lets disable 5 for being too judgemental (who are we to judge anyway), and 6 for expressing too much favoritism (is anyone really more deserving of praise than anyone else). We can call each challenge a tie, list the submitted photos in order of submission, and we can all stop wasting our weeknights voting.
...or...
We could use the scale given us (yes, that means every score from 1 to 10), vote as we see fit (which is really the only fixed criteria for voting) and accept the fact that everyone has some reason for how they vote (even if you think it's stupid/judgemental/narrow-minded/unfair/overly-literal/underly-literal/etc./etc./etc.). |
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02/23/2004 08:17:03 PM · #21 |
| On my voting scale I consider a 5 average. Since this is a photography web site and people chose only one picture to enter in the challenge, an average photo here should blow just about every photo the average person picks up at the walmart one hour photo out of the water. Thus, a 5 from me means average for this site, not just an average photo out of aunt betty's photo album. To get a "1" from me, typically you have to make me say, out loud, how the heck can anyone consider that a good photo. |
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02/23/2004 09:33:27 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by louddog:
an average photo here should blow just about every photo the average person picks up at the walmart one hour photo out of the water. Thus, a 5 from me means average for this site, not just an average photo out of aunt betty's photo album. To get a "1" from me, typically you have to make me say, out loud, how the heck can anyone consider that a good photo. |
This is exactly how I feel about this site, and the photos posted here. I just finished voting... I didn't see any 1's.
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02/23/2004 09:45:00 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by ScottK:
A modest proposal...
We could use the scale given us (yes, that means every score from 1 to 10), vote as we see fit (which is really the only fixed criteria for voting) and accept the fact that everyone has some reason for how they vote (even if you think it's stupid/judgemental/narrow-minded/unfair/overly-literal/underly-literal/etc./etc./etc.). |
I couldn't agree more. It's a ten point scale, folks, so I use it. All of it. I don't throw around 1's and 2's, OR 9's and 10's, with careless abandon, but I DO use the whole scale. I want the score on my entry to reflect the whole scale, too, not be artificially inflated because people are afraid to hurt feelings by rating an entry low.
Those of you who use only the top six numbers on the scale are guilty of "leniency effect," those of you who stay near the bottom demonstrate "severity effect," and those who hover around 4-6 have "central tendency." All of these sources of rater error contribute to an artificial final score. However, given the number of raters, you probably balance one another out.
My source of angst when rating is the entries which are wonderful pictures but I can't see how they fit the theme. I hate to mark them down when they are such great images but -- at the end of the day, I try to evaluate how well they met the challenge of the theme, not just how good they are technically and/or artistically. I'm still working on this, however.
That said, I favor using the full scale, not taking ANY of it too personally, learning from the comments, and having fun along the way.
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02/23/2004 10:29:42 PM · #24 |
Very good post boomer.
I, too, hate to mark low a very good photo that is off topic, but I hate to see them end up near the top end of the results. Some of them almost seem to be thumbing their nose at the topic. |
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02/23/2004 10:54:42 PM · #25 |
Some examples of 1 votes that I totally agree with
Vehicles - Broken rec'd 75 - 1's
Simplicity - Finding Death In Greed rec'd 92 - 1's
Money - The Devil Within Us, Floating, and untitled all
rec'd over 90 - 1's for containing images of money that
was explicitly prohibited
Still Life - Fall Is Here rec'd 106 - 1's
Grace - Christmas Is Coming rec'd 108 - 1's
Weather - Late Afternoon rec'd 117 - 1's
Time - Burt Reynolds ( Complete black image )
rec'd 114 - 1's and to it's credit 3 - 10's
Road Signs Revisited - Puppy's Nose rec'd 119 - 1's
Photojournalism - Time rec'd 138 - 1's
Light Source - My Hand rec'd 176 - 1's
Shadows - The Engineering Marvels of General Electric (Total Black)
rec'd 151 - 1's
(Sorry for the edit, posted 1st time by error)
Message edited by author 2004-02-23 23:00:25. |
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