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01/10/2008 11:52:07 AM · #1 |
Ok
Here is my story. I don't really know there is anything I can do, but I wanted to vent and see if anyone had any suggestions.
My wife and I had our wedding photographed. Our package included a 30 page 11x14 album that will be designed and collaged together and printed on quality thick stock. We will get the rights to the photos as well. All combined we spent over $3000.
Our proofs came back and we were happy with the pictures. What the photographer had done was lay out which pictures would be on which pages. ie. page 1--photos 3, 7, 9, page 2, photos 304, 323, 492, 275, etc. We were supposed to look through and make any changes to photos that he had selected. We had a tough time visualizing, so we said, design as is and once we see the design we'll make a few changes, but we're basically trusting you design judgement (we loved everything is his portfolio). However, what we didn't realize is that he designed 10 extra pages worth. So we had our proof book returned to us and they said its $50 a page for the extra pages totalling $500!
We had looked through the pages and decided it generally looked good and we were happy with it. Now we have to decide what to eliminate and what isn't as important. The design had a good theme to it--general flow of the wedding, bride pages, groom pages, wedding party, family, reception, etc.
So, what to do? I feel kind of swindled--we have forked out a TON of money already and now they seem to be grubbing for more. I know this is how photographers make their living, and I eventually would like to turn my hobby into something of a side gig for me, but I was pretty dissappointed that they didn't at least say "hey, by the way, we've designed ten extra pages that will cost you and extra half a grand" up front.
Ok, done ranting, what do you think? |
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01/10/2008 12:01:07 PM · #2 |
It's interesting to read this on this forum from the perspective of a customer rather than from the photographer's point of view.
There are a few folks here who preach that we should be doing this kind of thing... while a client is reaching into one pocket to pay for services, sneak into their other pocket to see if there's any more money they can possibly spend.
I'm really against this kind of treatment as this isn't how *I* would expect to be treated. I make every attempt to be right up front with everyone, and what I say is what they pay (that rhymes!).
I don't think anyone here can make this decision for you... it's a case of whether you want to bend over and pay more than you were expecting (and stick to your sense of what's right), or settle for less. |
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01/10/2008 12:05:28 PM · #3 |
I'm not sure what the problem is. He gave you a $3,000 proposal you had a "hard time visualizing", so you told him "Lay out a book, we trust your judgment". The book came back bigger, and you were told it was bigger and how much more it would cost. You have the option of pruning the book yourself, now that you can see it and not have to "visualize" it. So what's the problem? He took too many nice pictures and you can't choose?
C'mon, you ASKED him to give it his best shot, and you LIKE the results he came up with. If the $500 is a major issue for you, you have the option of scaling back and you can choose exactly what to eliminate...
R.
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01/10/2008 12:07:24 PM · #4 |
I am kind of torn on this one and let me give you my rationale. First it is always nice to give someone a heads up that they are about to spend more money. My problem is that I think this happened. When you turned over creative control of your book to your photographer you asked him or her to put together what looks the best and has the best flow. While I am sure it looks as though this is "money grubbing" you said that it has great balance and flow. Your photographer did exactly what you asked them to do. If up front you would have said this looks good but make sure to keep it to 30 pages and your photographer went over I would have a major major issue here. I think my dilemma is that you gave over creative control and now want it back because it isn't priced how you would have liked.
I am really torn on this because I think photographers should always be incredibly customer service oriented whenever possible. However I think that is exactly what your photographer did. You trusted their design judgment to provide you the best possible album and that is what happened.
With where to go from here. If you still have the ability to change the album (it sounds like from the post that you do) then change the album down to your pages that you want. Not sure what the problem is there. If that is not the case and you cannot change the album I think you are stuck because in my opinion you authorized the product that was developed. |
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01/10/2008 12:07:44 PM · #5 |
| Cut back the pages and spend the $500 on something nice. In 5 years time the book will be gathering dust on a shelf somewhere anyway. :-p |
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01/10/2008 12:10:28 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Cut back the pages and spend the $500 on something nice. In 5 years time the book will be gathering dust on a shelf somewhere anyway. :-p |
Ditto! |
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01/10/2008 12:13:30 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by SaraR:
Originally posted by jhonan:
Cut back the pages and spend the $500 on something nice. In 5 years time the book will be gathering dust on a shelf somewhere anyway. :-p |
Ditto! |
I also agree!!! My wedding book doesn't even get touched. Well Im divorced now, but even before that.
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01/10/2008 12:16:14 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by bennettjamie:
Originally posted by SaraR:
Originally posted by jhonan:
Cut back the pages and spend the $500 on something nice. In 5 years time the book will be gathering dust on a shelf somewhere anyway. :-p |
Ditto! |
I also agree!!! My wedding book doesn't even get touched. Well Im divorced now, but even before that. |
The value of the wedding book doesn't really come into play until you've been married a whole bunch of years. For sure, if you get divorced it becomes worthless. But it is precious when you have grandkids and 50th anniversary celebrations etc :-)
R.
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01/10/2008 12:17:28 PM · #9 |
| I completely agree with Bear and Mike. Take some pages out if you wish and save the cash. I realize you are already spending a lot of money but, to recieve the rights to the images as well, thats a serious deal if your photographer is good quality. $3,000 is the middle range for our wedding packages and we never give out the rights even for weddings more than twice that. |
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01/10/2008 12:27:27 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I'm not sure what the problem is. He gave you a $3,000 proposal you had a "hard time visualizing", so you told him "Lay out a book, we trust your judgment". The book came back bigger, and you were told it was bigger and how much more it would cost. You have the option of pruning the book yourself, now that you can see it and not have to "visualize" it. So what's the problem? He took too many nice pictures and you can't choose?
C'mon, you ASKED him to give it his best shot, and you LIKE the results he came up with. If the $500 is a major issue for you, you have the option of scaling back and you can choose exactly what to eliminate...
R. |
Sorry, let me clarify. He had already laid out the pages for me before we asked him to do that. So I got that sheet back with what pictures were where. That sheet had the extra ten pages on it. They had told us to look it over and make switches where you want to--this is where we had trouble visualizing because each picture would be sized diffently, etc. so we just wanted to see the finished digital layout. We returned it, and said, go ahead design the book. This is when the bill was sent for the extra pages--we were told either pay for the extra pages or elimate what you want to. Thats why I was frusterated. I should have seen there were extra pages but I really wasn't even thinking about it....
I know there is really nothing I can do, I guess I just wanted perspectives. |
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01/10/2008 12:30:45 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by Mike_Adams:
With where to go from here. If you still have the ability to change the album (it sounds like from the post that you do) then change the album down to your pages that you want. Not sure what the problem is there. If that is not the case and you cannot change the album I think you are stuck because in my opinion you authorized the product that was developed. |
I can change the album and will have to--but the whole point was them designing it for me in the first place. So i have to find the pictures I need from the extra pages and remove pictures from the first pages, or figure which pages can be removed entirely. In the original 30 pages there is a 120 picture limit including backgrounds...
I think this is also the source of irritation, that now I have to make decisions where I wanted to just trust the original judgement.
Lesson learned I guess.... |
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01/10/2008 12:54:13 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by tpbremer:
Originally posted by Mike_Adams:
With where to go from here. If you still have the ability to change the album (it sounds like from the post that you do) then change the album down to your pages that you want. Not sure what the problem is there. If that is not the case and you cannot change the album I think you are stuck because in my opinion you authorized the product that was developed. |
I can change the album and will have to--but the whole point was them designing it for me in the first place. So i have to find the pictures I need from the extra pages and remove pictures from the first pages, or figure which pages can be removed entirely. In the original 30 pages there is a 120 picture limit including backgrounds...
I think this is also the source of irritation, that now I have to make decisions where I wanted to just trust the original judgement.
Lesson learned I guess.... |
I still don't see the problem; normal practice would be client tells shooter what images s/he wants in album, shooter designs album. Sounds like that's what's happening here.
R.
Message edited by author 2008-01-10 12:54:21.
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01/10/2008 12:57:19 PM · #13 |
Here's my take...
Even though you told the photog that you couldn't decide and trusted his judgement on the book, you paid for a 30 page book. For him to go ahead and put together one that was that much bigger is not right. I feel this is his way of trying to milk more money out of you. You already had an agreement on the size of the book. |
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01/10/2008 01:06:04 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by tpbremer:
Originally posted by Mike_Adams:
With where to go from here. If you still have the ability to change the album (it sounds like from the post that you do) then change the album down to your pages that you want. Not sure what the problem is there. If that is not the case and you cannot change the album I think you are stuck because in my opinion you authorized the product that was developed. |
I can change the album and will have to--but the whole point was them designing it for me in the first place. So i have to find the pictures I need from the extra pages and remove pictures from the first pages, or figure which pages can be removed entirely. In the original 30 pages there is a 120 picture limit including backgrounds...
I think this is also the source of irritation, that now I have to make decisions where I wanted to just trust the original judgement.
Lesson learned I guess.... |
I still don't see the problem; normal practice would be client tells shooter what images s/he wants in album, shooter designs album. Sounds like that's what's happening here.
R. |
I think I see the problem here.when he told the photog he trusted his judgement he was thinking that the book was laid out with the 120 photos and was not informed that more pages had been added and that it would be an extra fee for said # of photos. IMHO this is no way to do bizz. I would have informed the client that it would be an additional fee for the book as I have it designed...not just send a bill.If you have the balls to run a bizz and deal with the public then have the balls to be totaly honest with everyone. and NEVER assume that the client knows anything.
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01/10/2008 01:06:54 PM · #15 |
| Ok, now I understand more. To be honest I would have loved that. My wife and I had to pick out all the pictures for all 30 pages of our book. We sorted through the proof books and picked them all out on our own. To have to narrow down 10 extra pages instead of have to wade through 900 proofs isn't too bad of a deal in my humble opinion. |
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01/10/2008 01:09:57 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Mike_Adams:
Ok, now I understand more. To be honest I would have loved that. My wife and I had to pick out all the pictures for all 30 pages of our book. We sorted through the proof books and picked them all out on our own. To have to narrow down 10 extra pages instead of have to wade through 900 proofs isn't too bad of a deal in my humble opinion. |
That's the way I'm looking at it. I just can't see where the photographer has done anything "wrong"; sure, he may be fishing for a little more money, but the client's in control and anyway the photographer can't read the client's mind, he doesn't know which images are most important to the client once you get past, say, the halfway point of "obvious inclusions".
R.
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01/10/2008 01:10:45 PM · #17 |
This is a fairly common, and oft recomended sale practice - add in extra pages and let the customer sweat it out as to what gets cut.
I've done this ONLY when the client exceeds my recomendations on how many images will fit their book. I tell them 100 and they give me 140 what am I to do? I warn them before the design starts though.
In all honesty, $50/page is pretty good price, especially for 11x14! Not much above cost depending on the album and allowing for design time and all. And most albums only come in page counts of 10,20,30, etc so there isn't a way to do 34 or 36.
If the 'list' of images/pages you got was 10 beyond the contract, why didn't say somehing then? "Hey, umm, we wanted 30 pages and you have these spread over 40. Is that gonna cost me extra?"
Is he charging for changes or limit how many you do? If not, just tell him "Hey, our deal was for 30 pages. Put those images into 30 pages and let us see it then".
He's working on speculation that you'll just buy the extra pages (probably most people do).
I'd be tempted to tell him "We agreed to 30 pages, and you're showing us 40. While we like the design and the price isn't unreasonable, we hadn't planned on any extra ezpenses right now. - We just bought a new house/new job/new car (come up wiht a plausible high ticket item here, to get understanding more than sympathy). Can you redesign that to fit the 30 pages as per the contract? If that's gonna be too much work, can we take it as is for only $200 and save you the redesign time?"
Or perhaps..."Can we do this layout, all 40 pages, but in a smaller album for the same price as we already paid?"
Message edited by author 2008-01-10 13:11:36.
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01/10/2008 02:57:22 PM · #18 |
The photographer is wrong by virtue of not considering the customer. He should have been up front what the cost of the book that "he" laid out would be if it was above the agreed upon price. When you do this, even if the photographer is not wrong per se in doing it, it does exactly what has happened here... it leaves a bad taste in the customer's mouths. A customer oriented photographer would have shown them a book as agreed upon and THEN brought out the additional pages and showed what could be done for an additional cost. Then let the customer decide if they want to upgrade or not.
Frankly I've always thought a lot of the after wedding stuff is way over priced... and the mark up that some photographers do on the albums and other add ons make the cost of the wedding pictures seem trivial in comparison.
Anyone that does a little bit of google searching can find albums and books that are excellent quality and if they are willing to spend a little bit of time with their prints, can put something together that is probably a quarter the cost and be just as good... and they (the couple and family) get the feeling of saving money and doing something together as well.
In this case, take the book minus the last 10 pages, buy the prints and add your own last 10 pages and save the money.
Mike
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01/10/2008 03:56:48 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by MikeJ:
Frankly I've always thought a lot of the after wedding stuff is way over priced... and the mark up that some photographers do on the albums and other add ons make the cost of the wedding pictures seem trivial in comparison. |
My time = Money.
The materials may not encompass most of the cost, but I don't work for free and I'm sure not many other photographers do either. How many hours does it take to make a GOOD album?
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01/10/2008 04:01:39 PM · #20 |
If it's a hobby then the time spent on it has no financial value (think boating, golfing, gardening, beer drinking, watching sports, playing the Wii, etc).
You might like cooking a fine meal, but that does not make a restaraunt meal overpriced. Or perhaps you've never hired an interior decorator, landscaper, or had your car detailed for $150.
Perhaps you can cut your own grass, clean your own house, fix your own car, but that does not mean those that do it for a living are overpriced.
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01/10/2008 04:08:45 PM · #21 |
I'd say don't hire him for your next wedding. :P
Actually, I'm with bear - his actions seem reasonable - but as others (Prof_Fate) have mentioned, you may be able to negotiate. The important thing is to communicate your frustration honestly and hear his side as well. His failing to mention it may have been an oversight and he might just offer a reasonable compromise. |
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01/10/2008 04:18:27 PM · #22 |
Sounds to me that the photographer is going out of his way to do "something special" for you ...he doesn't seem to be trying to swindle you ... but time is money ...
The recommendations here are sound. Work with him ... he may cut you a deal
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01/10/2008 04:27:32 PM · #23 |
I'm just gonna watch this thread and not comment as a wedding photographer.
However, I will agree with Chris (prof_fate), I think he's not charging you much over cost, which says a lot to me.
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01/10/2008 05:11:49 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
"Hey, our deal was for 30 pages. Put those images into 30 pages and let us see it then".
"We agreed to 30 pages, and you're showing us 40. While we like the design and the price isn't unreasonable, we hadn't planned on any extra ezpenses right now. - We just bought a new house/new job/new car (come up wiht a plausible high ticket item here, to get understanding more than sympathy). Can you redesign that to fit the 30 pages as per the contract? If that's gonna be too much work, can we take it as is for only $200 and save you the redesign time?" |
GREAT ADVICE HERE As I was reading the thread I was thinking along the same lines...try to compromise, or get him to redesign album back down to 30 pages.
edit: i can't spell worth a crap
Message edited by author 2008-01-11 00:17:24. |
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01/10/2008 05:22:36 PM · #25 |
You were not swindled, you made a contract and now you want to go over the contract....the photographer only has to honor the contract.
Let this be a lesson in your marriage....you are going to have contractors give you contracts to make additions to your house...learn from this lesson so you don't make major financial mistakes with them. |
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