Yet ANOTHER "What Would YOU Charge?" thread

01/10/2008 10:38:39 AM · #1

I asked the client what his budget was. He said he had NO idea. I openly admitted that I have never done anything like this and my prices are geared towards portraits and weddings and at that rate would be WAY too expensive. So, we discussed other aspects of the job and decided to come up with a reasonable amount later on. I would like to go in armed with some knowledge, that is where all of you come in. :)

Here is what he told me:
1.)He does stone work (backsplashes, kitchens, mosiacs, tile, etc...) remodels in homes.
2.)There are between 10 and 20 jobs he would like photographed from all angles for use in brochures, on a website, business cards, etc...
3.)We are looking at maybe doing some before and after shots.
4.)He will want a disk with the best images from each location (depending on the number of jobs, will determine the number of images probably between one and two thousand) which I will release for him to print as he wishes.
5.)If I do an excellent job, he will call upon me again in the future. Possibly the very near future and possibly very often.

So, my question is, what is the NORMAL going rate for something like that? Keep in mind that is a fledgeling business that WILL grow and this man has a lot of contacts in a pretty good sized city.

Any and all suggestions are welcome and they will all be thought on very carefully. So, waddya say?

NVPhoto

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

01/10/2008 10:59:16 AM · #2

most will tell you to charge him an arm and a leg or his first born child because your photos will bring him work blah blah blah. My opinion is that if you are asking for pricing info you are fairly new to this kind of work and should price yourself accordingly. I would find a number that you can both be happy with. If $1000 will make you some money and make him feel like he got a deal than do it, if you quote him $2000/day he will probably take his business elsewhere. You can make him aware that as your business grows your rates in teh future will change.

Find out what other pros in the area charge and do it for less. Some people will probably not appreciate that, but who cares, this is your business and you need to A. make some money and B. acquire clients. The way I look at it is if he wanted to spend $2000/day on an established pro he wouldn't even be talking to you.

I would have rates of competition so when I sit down with the guy you can show what others charge. Design him a custom package to fit his needs and do it for less than the other guy. This will exceed his expectations and the word of mouth will deliver you more business. Some people think that will only get you new business thats looking for a deal. I think thats a very easy thing to overcome. All I say when someone asks for the $600 wedding that I did when I first started is. "I did XXX's wedding for that rate because I was new to the wedding photography business. Demand for my work has caused me to increase rates, but I will still work with you to find a package that best fits your needs, and I assure you, you will be happy with the final results."

Prof_Fate

01/10/2008 11:55:22 AM · #3

Ever been to a new restaraunt or bought a car from a new salesman or dealership, been to a new haridresser? Do they reduce their prices beacause they are new? Not the ones I know. They charge the market rate for their products and services.
Ask the homebuilder if he works cheap because it's the first time he's done this or that on a house? I bet he charges more because he has more unknowns on his end to deal with!

Commercial work, and that's what this is, is charged in two parts - the creation fee (usually by the day or half day) and then each image is sold based on usage rights. Most buyers of commercial images take them with no PP as they're ad or art department will do that work based on the use of the image.

Most commercial photogs around here charge $2000 or more a day. For my work if I can average $100 an hour or better I'm happy with that, so $800 for an 8 hour day is fine, although I'd be tempted to quote it higher, perhaps $950/day, 500/half day. That would include shooting and editing to the proof stage (like I do weddings, so I'm familiar with what I'll have and how long it will take) For good shots of homes you'll have to work with WB a lot, mixed perharps, etc (daylight from windows and incandescent interiors). If you add lighting add incandescent, no flash needed, or wanted.
How many images you can create in an hour or a day is a but tougher to gage. Some jobs go quick and others will be a PITA. How much time will you spend setting up the shoot itself (scheduling access to finished homes for example). Will you be working full 8 hour days or an hour here and an hour there (and that means a lot more time spent (wasted) traveling that you should be compensated for in some way.

Once you have the images, now what? You can do a proof deal and let him pick images at say $5 each. OR perhaps come up with a flat price and a guaranteed minimum purchase - $2/file, but he must buy 500 files minimum. He'll want to know how many you'll deliver per job so as not to be jerking him around and making money just because you're shutter happy. But then, you don't want him to have you PP 1000 images at $2 each if he only wants to use 5 images.

I'd try and estimate how many images per job, and how long that would take. Maybe 30 minutes to drive, an hour to set up, shoot, look at what you shot, make adjustments, shoot again, etc. Perhaps shoot tethered to see the images BIG and not have to go back. I could see 6 to 10 images on a kitchen at the most. So two hours and 5 images for his use in any way (simpler for both of you that way). $250 a job? You could (at these guesstimated numbers) do 4 jobs a day, so the overall numbers are not far off base from my initial thoughts.

Back in the day when I sold real estate the company had a TV show and a guy would come and shoot 4 or 5 slides of a home, $120 was the fee (8 or 9 years ago) and he was there 15 minutes and did no setup of anyting - the agent or homeowner would do that, as well as decide what needed shot. The images were on TV for just a few seconds (30 homes in 30 minutes was their tagline for the show, and they had some other bits in there, so a slide was seen for 8 seconds maybe). No fine art or advertising quality image was required.

Good luck, sounds like a fun project!

Message edited by author 2008-01-10 11:56:23.

01/10/2008 12:50:00 PM · #4

Originally posted by TCGuru:

1.)He does stone work (backsplashes, kitchens, mosiacs, tile, etc...) remodels in homes.

This means most images will be "details", as opposed to overall room shots. Much easier to light. "Styling" the shots will be important; you will need props; knives and cutting boards and fruit/veggies in the kitchen, bath oils and towles in the bathroom, and so forth. Will you be providing the props or using whatever you can find? if the former, you need a LOT of props so you don't get repetitive, if the latter you are at the mercy of the style sense of the homeowner.

Originally posted by TCGuru:

2.)There are between 10 and 20 jobs he would like photographed from all angles for use in brochures, on a website, business cards, etc...
3.)We are looking at maybe doing some before and after shots.
4.)He will want a disk with the best images from each location (depending on the number of jobs, will determine the number of images probably between one and two thousand) which I will release for him to print as he wishes.

You've got to be kidding? 2000 images on 20 jobs is 100 images per job. Even on large architectural projects we rarely produced 100 images on a single job, let alone detail work like this. If he really wants this many shots, he is gonna have to pay an arm and a leg. If I were shooting kitchen stonework in a largish kitchen, I'd expect to shoot MAYBE 10 images total of that area. Keep in mind that details can be, and often are, cropped out of larger shots.

Originally posted by TCGuru:

5.)If I do an excellent job, he will call upon me again in the future. Possibly the very near future and possibly very often.

That's pretty much irrelevant. I'd presume you'd do the best you can possibly do even IF it were sure to be a one-shot thing, right?

Originally posted by TCGuru:

So, my question is, what is the NORMAL going rate for something like that? Keep in mind that is a fledgling business that WILL grow and this man has a lot of contacts in a pretty good sized city.

"Normal" varies from region to region; a photographer in NYC gets paid more, on average, than one in, say, Ames, Iowa.

For my architectural clients, I released all non-publication rights to the images as part of the shooting fee. These people don't, as a rule, make (for example) larger ads in print media on a national scale. I reserved "publication" rights; that is to say, if a publication wanted to do a story about the client using my images, then the client directed the publication to me and they paid me directly (at their going rate) for the use of the images. A lot of "trade" publications don't pay for images; they use images provided by the client, they are essentially PR vehicles. In that case I'd just release copies to them directly when they asked. Local "shelter magazines", on the other hand, have a small editorial budget, and they'd pay me their going page rate for the images. national magazines, of course, paid more.

Things to bear in mind when figuring out your fee include budgeting for travel time, allowing time for setup and dismantling (lights and props, primarily, occasionally even furniture), and (perhaps most importantly) figuring in the time you will use scouting the locations before shooting. As a rule of thumb, we figured if we were spending a day on-site we'd be burning up 2 days of our time; more if the location was a considerable distance away. Part of your calculations will involve deciding if the work will be primarily natural light or primarily lit by you; if the former is the case, you may find that on a job with, say, a kitchen, a bathroom, and some fireplace and hallway stone work, that you need to shoot the bathroom at dawn, the kitchen at dusk, and the hallways/fireplace any time. So even if you only spend, say, 2 hours shooting, you still are stuck on location for an entire day if you want take best advantage of the natural light.

What this means is that it's hard to figure a one-price-fits-all budget. The jobs may vary dramatically in time required to shoot, unless you are taking a "real estate photographer" cookie-cutter approach to the work, which is certainly the most effective way to do it for a budget-conscious client but, in the end, not very satisfying to you. That said, if there are ENOUGH locations being contracted at a single time it is certainly possible to come up with an average fee-per-location. And if the client ends up steadily feeding you work over an extended time, you can safely use this average fee to price out the jobs in aggregate.

So, to sum that up: figure how much time you will spend actually shooting and processing images, and double that to allow for travel and setup/breakdown, multiply that by your day rate, and you have a good ballpark figure for your basic, urban tradesman-client.

Hope this helps.

R.

raish

Olympus C-2500L

01/10/2008 01:37:42 PM · #5

As a self-employed craftsman, he should be familiar with precisely the same sort of problems.

His idea and yours (I'm thinking of 'you' as a generic photographer here, rather than the personal individual) of what sort of pictures are best under the circumstances are likely to differ. The bit about props and synthetically composed settings came from a pro and it's what you expect from brochures etc. The man, though, no doubt thinks there's nothing more beautiful than the work itself. He'd also take pride (I speak for myself) in the way in which the work is suited to the environment in which it is done. Yet another point may well be if there is another party or parties involved who are sort of advising him on this little marketing venture. It's too speculative to say a lot about all that, but there are a few bases to touch there, which might mean a few more than ten shots per location - at least before you throw the rest of them away :-)

Don't reduce prices on the promise of future contracts. Even consider demanding the day rate (or whatever) up front before he gets to see anything. That may seem a rough way to treat the-customer-who-is-always-right, but the ones who haggle most about the price before you start are the same ones that are never done complaining about the standard of the finished product. I'm saying all this from a craftsman's (carpenter's) point of view and trust me, he knows what I'm talking about.

Having said that, as long as he's cool and I'm cool then I'd probably do it for peanuts so as to learn by doing and establish a reference.

Be warned - I am not rich.

Best of :-)

01/10/2008 01:45:41 PM · #6

Originally posted by raish:

His idea and yours (I'm thinking of 'you' as a generic photographer here, rather than the personal individual) of what sort of pictures are best under the circumstances are likely to differ. The bit about props and synthetically composed settings came from a pro and it's what you expect from brochures etc. The man, though, no doubt thinks there's nothing more beautiful than the work itself. He'd also take pride (I speak for myself) in the way in which the work is suited to the environment in which it is done. Yet another point may well be if there is another party or parties involved who are sort of advising him on this little marketing venture. It's too speculative to say a lot about all that, but there are a few bases to touch there, which might mean a few more than ten shots per location - at least before you throw the rest of them away :-)

This all makes sense, but a few comments:

1. OP specified DELIVERY of 1000-2000 images, which is extreme. I suggested delivery of maybe 10 shots per location would be more normal. Of course I'd SHOOT more than that, but many would be variations on a common theme.

2. I, of course, did a LOT of work for craftsmen like you. Some of them even thought they needed to show "nothing but the tile". Without exception, they ended up thinking otherwise when they saw the finished, styled work. We're not talking anything extreme here; just little touches that bring in a sense of functionality or purpose to the environment. These are not "synthetically composed"; indeed, they tend to be "decomposed"; that is to say, normally you have to REMOVE stuff to get a good shot, unless the project has yet to be inhabited by humans.

3. For sure if he has marketing people working with him, OP should be consulting with the marketing people every step of the way.

R.

jpochard

Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM

01/10/2008 01:51:37 PM · #7

Something else not mentioned that you might consider....

Need any tiling or stonework done at your house? Sometimes you can actually get more value by bartering than by paycheck. All depends on what you need /want. Just a different idea.

raish

Olympus C-2500L

01/10/2008 01:56:17 PM · #8

Thanks, Robert. You da pro. I was sort of looking for a way to express some of that - nothing beats dialogue :-)

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

01/10/2008 02:10:53 PM · #9

Originally posted by raish:

As a self-employed craftsman, he should be familiar with precisely the same sort of problems.

His idea and yours (I'm thinking of 'you' as a generic photographer here, rather than the personal individual) of what sort of pictures are best under the circumstances are likely to differ. snip...

Having said that, as long as he's cool and I'm cool then I'd probably do it for peanuts so as to learn by doing and establish a reference.

Be warned - I am not rich.

Best of :-)

This is one of the issues, as Bear mentioned, 100 photos per job is an awful lot when you measure it x10 (haha) but not so much when you think about what the client wants. We aren't really sure.

I think I would like to try it both ways (with and without props) now that you mention it and give him a variety. Plus, I would gain both for a portfolio for the future. So, win win. May take me a little longer to do it that way, but I would like to make him happy so I'm gonna go for it since he doesn't really know what he's looking for. And thanks for the suggestion of props Bear!

Also, I will talk to him about other PR. He will understand that only HE will be given rights of reproduction. :)

No marketing people, just us. Travel will be minimal (these 10-20 are pretty close to one another) and my setup goes up FAST (now, anyway). I can usually set up in under 20 minutes (this is WITH a backdrop and all) and break down in 10.

He saw my body of portrait and wedding work and decided he liked the quality and creativity and that is what he is basing this on.

Prof, you make a lot of sense here. I am considering those numbers carefully and will probably end up on the lower end. ;)

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

1. OP specified DELIVERY of 1000-2000 images, which is extreme. I suggested delivery of maybe 10 shots per location would be more normal. Of course I'd SHOOT more than that, but many would be variations on a common theme.

And therein lies the problem. I would like to get all angles, some closeups, etc... and that should yield between 50 and 100 shots per room.

Originally posted by jpochard:

Well, if I did, I would certainly consider that!! That is a great suggestion!!

This is great information guys!! I am learining a lot here. Keep it comin :)

Spork99

OM System OM-1

01/10/2008 02:14:56 PM · #10

Have you asked him how much he has budgeted for this work?

01/10/2008 02:16:10 PM · #11

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Have you asked him how much he has budgeted for this work?

That was my first question, actually, he said he doesn't know but doesn't want to have to sell a kidney to pay for it LOL

rossbilly

Nikon D200

01/10/2008 02:20:45 PM · #12

Originally posted by TCGuru:

... doesn't want to have to sell a kidney to pay for it LOL

why - what are kidneys going for these days? (and, did you ask HIM that question) :D

Message edited by author 2008-01-10 14:21:39.

01/10/2008 02:34:27 PM · #13

Originally posted by TCGuru:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

1. OP specified DELIVERY of 1000-2000 images, which is extreme. I suggested delivery of maybe 10 shots per location would be more normal. Of course I'd SHOOT more than that, but many would be variations on a common theme.

And therein lies the problem. I would like to get all angles, some closeups, etc... and that should yield between 50 and 100 shots per room.

Pardon my saying so, but this is insane. Are you being paid to be a recording device, or a photographer? As an architectural/product photographer, your job is to make those decisions. Nothing will kill you spirit (and your business) faster than feeling you have to cover every millimeter of the project exhaustively from every conceivable angle. And you can't afford to do it. If you're working fast enough to do it economically, you're not optimizing things like lighting, props, and camera angles. If you're optimizing each view, it takes forever to do 100 of them.

We used to figure an hour per interior shot, MINIMUM. I have done single shots that took 8 hours to make, though that's extreme. Admittedly, doing more detail-oriented work goes quite a bit faster, but even so...

Go for quality over quantity, is my advice.

R.

01/10/2008 02:34:57 PM · #14

Originally posted by rossbilly:

Originally posted by TCGuru:
... doesn't want to have to sell a kidney to pay for it LOL

why - what are kidneys going for these days? (and, did you ask HIM that question) :D

HEY, QUIT GUNKIN UP MY THREAD!!! hehe

I think around 12,000?? I could be wrong though. I did not ask him that (thought it was better to be professional)

:P

01/10/2008 02:40:12 PM · #15

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by TCGuru:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

1. OP specified DELIVERY of 1000-2000 images, which is extreme. I suggested delivery of maybe 10 shots per location would be more normal. Of course I'd SHOOT more than that, but many would be variations on a common theme.

And therein lies the problem. I would like to get all angles, some closeups, etc... and that should yield between 50 and 100 shots per room.

Pardon my saying so, but this is insane. Are you being paid to be a recording device, or a photographer? As an architectural/product photographer, your job is to make those decisions. Nothing will kill you spirit (and your business) faster than feeling you have to cover every millimeter of the project exhaustively from every conceivable angle. And you can't afford to do it. If you're working fast enough to do it economically, you're not optimizing things like lighting, props, and camera angles. If you're optimizing each view, it takes forever to do 100 of them.

We used to figure an hour per interior shot, MINIMUM. I have done single shots that took 8 hours to make, though that's extreme. Admittedly, doing more detail-oriented work goes quite a bit faster, but even so...

Go for quality over quantity, is my advice.

R.

Yes, it's probably crazy. But, again, this is the first job and I have nothing to show him to base what he is looking for off of. I may just do the first job that way and let him decide which way to take the next ones. That would make it easier.

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8 VR DG IF-ED

01/10/2008 02:42:49 PM · #16

Originally posted by TCGuru:

OK, I can live with that; but don't base any estimates on this, you will have to cut back sooner or later. And take your time doing it! Spend 2 days if you have to! Do it right! Then you and he can decide which images are right as "templates" for future jobs, and you have a basis on which to quote him for the rest of the work.

R.

ErikV

Nikon D7000

01/10/2008 02:47:50 PM · #17

Originally posted by TCGuru:

Originally posted by rossbilly:

Originally posted by TCGuru:
... doesn't want to have to sell a kidney to pay for it LOL

why - what are kidneys going for these days? (and, did you ask HIM that question) :D

HEY, QUIT GUNKIN UP MY THREAD!!! hehe

I think around 12,000?? I could be wrong though. I did not ask him that (thought it was better to be professional)

:P

Kidneys are usually donated for free in the organ transplant community (at least in the US). So you definitely want to get paid a lot more than the price of a kidney!

01/10/2008 03:03:50 PM · #18

Originally posted by ErikV:

Originally posted by TCGuru:

Originally posted by rossbilly:

Originally posted by TCGuru:
... doesn't want to have to sell a kidney to pay for it LOL

why - what are kidneys going for these days? (and, did you ask HIM that question) :D

HEY, QUIT GUNKIN UP MY THREAD!!! hehe

I think around 12,000?? I could be wrong though. I did not ask him that (thought it was better to be professional)

:P

Kidneys are usually donated for free in the organ transplant community (at least in the US). So you definitely want to get paid a lot more than the price of a kidney!

Yeahhhhhh but you can buy em too :) Then they are all yours and you don't have to wait on a list :) bwahhahahhaa

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

01/10/2008 03:04:38 PM · #19

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by TCGuru:

Yes, it's probably crazy. But, again, this is the first job and I have nothing to show him to base what he is looking for off of. I may just do the first job that way and let him decide which way to take the next ones. That would make it easier.

OK, I can live with that; but don't base any estimates on this, you will have to cut back sooner or later. And take your time doing it! Spend 2 days if you have to! Do it right! Then you and he can decide which images are right as "templates" for future jobs, and you have a basis on which to quote him for the rest of the work.

R.

OK, I will do the first one and we will go from there :)

THANKS BEAR!!! <<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Spork99

OM System OM-1

01/10/2008 03:13:47 PM · #20

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Ditto all of that.

rossbilly

Nikon D200

01/10/2008 05:57:57 PM · #21

Ok JoJo - no kidding this time... I've posted on another forum, ~~and these are the responses I've received so far:~~

I'll quote the responses later (tonight?) on IM. No biggie, just easier for us to talk it out.

(I agree with 98% of what's here.)