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07/24/2008 03:09:21 PM · #426 |
Originally posted by krafty1:
Other than a single bridge that collapsed due to poor inspection, I don't see a huge degradation of our infrastructure. |
The remaining residents of New Orleans might disagree with this position.
Also, that bridge collapse triggered a review of bridge inspections, which found that something like 80-90% had some degree of deterioration, and a significant percentage were in as bad or worse shape as the one which collapsed. |
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07/24/2008 03:29:32 PM · #427 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by krafty1:
Other than a single bridge that collapsed due to poor inspection, I don't see a huge degradation of our infrastructure. |
The remaining residents of New Orleans might disagree with this position.
Also, that bridge collapse triggered a review of bridge inspections, which found that something like 80-90% had some degree of deterioration, and a significant percentage were in as bad or worse shape as the one which collapsed. |
Actually, according to Louis Farrakhan(among others), Bush and the government blew up te levee in New Orleans. So I guess it is is fault. |
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07/24/2008 03:48:02 PM · #428 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by krafty1:
Other than a single bridge that collapsed due to poor inspection, I don't see a huge degradation of our infrastructure. |
The remaining residents of New Orleans might disagree with this position.
Also, that bridge collapse triggered a review of bridge inspections, which found that something like 80-90% had some degree of deterioration, and a significant percentage were in as bad or worse shape as the one which collapsed. |
To lay the failure of the levees in New Orleans at the feet of president Bush is to deny how those levees are maintained and who is responsible for funding the maintenance and over what period the lack of proper maintenance occurred. Many levels of management local and above had a hand in those levees.
I'm sure all of the problems with those bridges spontaneously came to being when Bush was elected. The funding for infrastructure projects originates in Congress. If Bush had vetoed a bill that specifically addressed this need you may have some case. If I remember correctly, everyone was shocked when the collapse occurred indicating that the problem was theretofore unrecognized/unknown. Addressing unknown problems is whose responsibility? |
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07/24/2008 03:48:23 PM · #429 |
George W Bush....FOUR MORE YEARS!!!
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07/24/2008 03:49:26 PM · #430 |
Originally posted by egamble:
George W Bush....FOUR MORE YEARS!!! |
by the way..Just kidding.
:p
I am hoping for McCain. Obama is just a afternoon school special rolled up in a LIFETIME sunday matinee. He want's to make you feel good without offering anything substantive.(just watch his recent speech from Berlin....then compare it to this..SOURCE MATERIAL FOR OBAMA SPEECH
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 15:55:19. |
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07/24/2008 04:31:43 PM · #431 |
Originally posted by krafty1:
To lay the failure of the levees in New Orleans at the feet of president Bush is to deny how those levees are maintained and who is responsible for funding the maintenance and over what period the lack of proper maintenance occurred. Many levels of management local and above had a hand in those levees.
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The failure of the levees themselves is one thing. The failure to mount an adequate response after they failed is another. The former is the result of inadequate design, planning and maintenance over a number of years. The latter is a moral failure on the part of those appointed by the president to be responsible for responding to just such an event. Their failures are ultimately Bush's failures. |
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07/24/2008 04:33:38 PM · #432 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
The failure of the levees themselves is one thing. The failure to mount an adequate response after they failed is another. The former is the result of inadequate design, planning and maintenance over a number of years. The latter is a moral failure on the part of those appointed by the president to be responsible for responding to just such an event. Their failures are ultimately Bush's failures. |
What about the morons the choose to live in a city that is at or below sea level?
You know what my grandfather always told me? Dont play with fire, if you don't want to get burned.
The same can be said for thosthat choose to live right next to the ocean (on TOP of being at or below sea level) and then blame the government when a Hurricance comes and does what Hurricanes do. I don't understand why WE have to pay for the mistakes that people make.....they chose to live there...they should live with so consequences.
It isn't like Katrina just sprang to life out of nowhere. They had days to 'get the hell out of Dodge'. But they didn't.
The ONLY people that had any excuse for being left behind...were children (under teenage age...and very old or handicapped people) any person with a working pair of legs and a healthy set of lungs should have just walked away.
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 16:36:55. |
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07/24/2008 04:36:22 PM · #433 |
Originally posted by egamble:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
The failure of the levees themselves is one thing. The failure to mount an adequate response after they failed is another. The former is the result of inadequate design, planning and maintenance over a number of years. The latter is a moral failure on the part of those appointed by the president to be responsible for responding to just such an event. Their failures are ultimately Bush's failures. |
What about the morons the choose to live in a city that is at or below sea level?
You know what my grandfather always told me? Dont play with fire, if you don't want to get burned.
The same can be said for idiots that choose to live right next to the ocean (on TOP of being at or below sea level) and then blame the government when a Hurricance comes and does what Hurricanes do. |
Way to blame the victims...
By your logic if a woman is wearing a short skirt, she deserves to get raped. Nice.
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07/24/2008 04:37:56 PM · #434 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Way to blame the victims...
By your logic if a woman is wearing a short skirt, she deserves to get raped. Nice. |
You are comparing apples to oranges.
The people hit by Katrina were not assaulted by a fellow human being. They were simply living in a hole...when a hurricane rolled over them.
VICTIMS? Give me a break. When these 'victims' came here..they caused problems. Do you realize that gang violence and OVERALL violence in the local high schools shot through the roof when the LA kids got to North-West Arkansas? Not to mention the fact that we have story after story of the EMERGENCY FUNDS being used for things like expensive purses...etc. Now, most of them didn't take advantage. BUT ALOT OF THEM DID. I don't count them among the victims. And I don't count the people heading back to 'REBUILD' as victims either.
If I am standing in the middle of a railroad....staring at an ONCOMING TRAIN...and I just say 'will somebody please help me?'...but I keep standing there....the train hits me. Am I a victim or an idiot?
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 16:41:53. |
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07/24/2008 04:41:06 PM · #435 |
Originally posted by egamble:
[quote=Spazmo99]
What about the morons the choose to live in a city that is at or below sea level?
You know what my grandfather always told me? Dont play with fire, if you don't want to get burned.
The same can be said for thosthat choose to live right next to the ocean (on TOP of being at or below sea level) and then blame the government when a Hurricance comes and does what Hurricanes do. I don't understand why WE have to pay for the mistakes that people make.....they chose to live there...they should live with so consequences.
It isn't like Katrina just sprang to life out of nowhere. They had days to 'get the hell out of Dodge'. But they didn't.
The ONLY people that had any excuse for being left behind...were children (under teenage age...and very old or handicapped people) any person with a working pair of legs and a healthy set of lungs should have just walked away. |
I don't think its appropriate to call the victims morons. Yes some choose to live there but some had no choice. Some had the means to leave, others didn't. But what ever side of the fence your on calling them morons, to me, is a little out of line.
Just my opinion
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 16:50:44. |
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07/24/2008 04:41:40 PM · #436 |
Originally posted by egamble:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Way to blame the victims...
By your logic if a woman is wearing a short skirt, she deserves to get raped. Nice. |
You are comparing apples to oranges.
The people hit by Katrina were not assaulted by a fellow human being. They were simply living in a hole...when a hurricane rolled over them.
VICTIMS? Give me a break. Everywhere these 'victims' went..they caused problems. Do you realize that gang violence and OVERALL violence in the local high schools shot through the roof when the LA kids got to North-West Arkansas?
If I am standing in the middle of a railroad....staring at an ONCOMING TRAIN...and I just say 'will somebody please help me?'...but I keep standing there....the train hits me. Am I a victim or an idiot? |
Your compassion is overwhelming.
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07/24/2008 04:43:12 PM · #437 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Your compassion is overwhelming. |
That doesn't answer the question. Am I a victim? Or an idiot?
I think we both know the answer. The problem is that so many people want the government to do EVERYTHING for them. When they don't.....they blame the government instead of themselves.
The job of the US government is not to run your life for you.
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 16:44:18. |
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07/24/2008 04:49:26 PM · #438 |
Dude New Orleans has been around since 1718 and has been a hub of commerce and art. So over 200 years of history and residents should be condensed into one word. Idiot?!! Man I bet you are the type that blames a car for a drunk driving accident. I can't believe you could make such an ignorant statement.
A. It was not the people of New Orleans who are to blame for Katrina
B. The government's response to the disaster made things worse.
and what do you suppose should happen now close down the city and let its culture and history rot?
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 16:50:55. |
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07/24/2008 04:53:53 PM · #439 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Dude New Orleans has been around since 1718 and has been a hub of commerce and art. So over 200 years of history and residents should be condensed into one word. Idiot?!! Man I bet you are the type that blames a car for a drunk driving accident. I can't believe you could make such an ignorant statement.
A. It was not the people of New Orleans who are to blame for Katrina
B. The government's response to the disaster made things worse.
and what do you suppose should happen now close down the city and let its culture and history rot? |
If you wan't to straw man. We could also talk about how long slavery was around...and how it was THE REASON for alot of US trade and commerce. How would you condense that practice?
A.) If the people are not to blame for their own plight..neither is the government. We didn't force them to live there. We didn't force them to stay when the storm was approaching. Those are CHOICES made by those people.
B.) Blaming the government is a cop-out. Could they have done better? Sure. But that is no excuse for sitting in your house while a Hurricane (still days away) barrels for your coastline.
C.) Let the people who want to rebuild..rebuild. But not on my dime..or anyone (besides their insurance companies...and anyone that wants to DONATE) else's. Why should I have to pay for their choice of lifestyle?>
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 16:55:20. |
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07/24/2008 05:01:20 PM · #440 |
Hate on brotha! And there is no "Straw Man" argument. You choose to misdirect the blame and I truly hope, should you ever be in need of assistance from the government or people in general, that you don't run into a person as apathetic as yourself.
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 17:13:41. |
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07/24/2008 05:02:18 PM · #441 |
Originally posted by egamble:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Your compassion is overwhelming. |
That doesn't answer the question. Am I a victim? Or an idiot?
I think we both know the answer. The problem is that so many people want the government to do EVERYTHING for them. When they don't.....they blame the government instead of themselves.
The job of the US government is not to run your life for you. |
Since you asked; I think you're an idiot, but not because you're standing in front of a train. |
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07/24/2008 05:21:53 PM · #442 |
| There was plenty of blame to go around for the Katrina debacle. Mayor Nagin, Governor Cathleen Blanco (sp?), the local authorities who oversaw the levee system, the Corp of Engineers, the 100 year old outdated water handling system, and yes the federal government AND residents of New Orleans who did not evacuate. All contributed to varying degrees, none are blameless. |
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07/24/2008 05:44:05 PM · #443 |
I live in N.O. I'm 45yrs old and I don't even remember NOT hearing that the levees will break and/or overtop in a CAT 3 hurricane or higher. We knew for 40 years..since hurricane Betsy that the levees would break.
The people that wanted to stay...stayed....
It was reported locally that there were two reasons the feds didn't/couldn't come in FAST...
One was Gov. Blanco did not want to give up power of the guard to the Federal Government...so that delayed the process of getting federal help in here.
Also...the city was shut down...no food...no water...the feds had to have all the "logistics" (am I using that word right?) in place before it could just send in the troops...
I tell ya...one thing that really pissed me off as a citizen was that every time I saw Blanco's sourpuss on the TV from my evacuation site, right by her side was Senator Vitter (R) and Senator Landreau (Demo). They didn't say anything or move out of the picture frame. All they did was make damn sure they were in the picture. It was comical.
Skid |
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07/24/2008 06:41:14 PM · #444 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Hate on brotha! And there is no "Straw Man" argument. You choose to misdirect the blame and I truly hope, should you ever be in need of assistance from the government or people in general, that you don't run into a person as apathetic as yourself. |
Sure it is....you take the first statement 'people that stayed in NO and then cry about it afterwards are idiots' and then STRAWMAN it into saying 'EVERYONE SINCE 1718 that has lived in NO is an idiot'.
That is a basic strawman arguement. You take an original arguement, you leave it untouched, then you use a hyperbole arguement that was never uttered and knock it down.
---Also, there is a difference between people that need and deserve help and people that stand in harms way and just WAIT to be rescued.Here is a good way to portray the people that stayed (if they had the means, IE legs and a healthy set of lungs to get out) View here
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 18:44:48. |
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07/24/2008 06:42:13 PM · #445 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Since you asked; I think you're an idiot, but not because you're standing in front of a train. |
Very cute. But then again, people that use Katrina as a reason to hate the government can very rarely back up their viewpoints with rational and logical points.
they only use emotional appeal. |
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07/24/2008 07:05:03 PM · #446 |
Originally posted by egamble:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Hate on brotha! And there is no "Straw Man" argument. You choose to misdirect the blame and I truly hope, should you ever be in need of assistance from the government or people in general, that you don't run into a person as apathetic as yourself. |
Sure it is....you take the first statement 'people that stayed in NO and then cry about it afterwards are idiots' and then STRAWMAN it into saying 'EVERYONE SINCE 1718 that has lived in NO is an idiot'.
That is a basic strawman arguement. You take an original arguement, you leave it untouched, then you use a hyperbole arguement that was never uttered and knock it down.
---Also, there is a difference between people that need and deserve help and people that stand in harms way and just WAIT to be rescued.Here is a good way to portray the people that stayed (if they had the means, IE legs and a healthy set of lungs to get out) View here |
Yes thanks "Straw man"
"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position).[1] A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2]"
That is not what I did.
You are however attempting to make my position a "Straw Man" argument in order to discount it. I was stating that you can't just "Close" New Orleans. The fact that it has existed since 1718 puts it a very special historical place and since we know what can happen to New Orleans in a disaster we should be prepared for it. Do the best we can so to speak. But you want to blame people for living in a city that has existed for over 200 years and that they should not live there because a disaster can happen. That is misdirected blame. I am sure you would blame the residents of San Francisco for their earthquakes. My point is that there exists the possibility for a natural disaster to strike anywhere in the USA and blaming the people, in the aftermath of said disaster, for not leaving before hand is silly. Like I said hate on. But your apathy is sad and you can pretend that my argument is what ever you like.
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 19:11:38. |
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07/24/2008 07:52:52 PM · #447 |
Straw Man:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Man I bet you are the type that blames a car for a drunk driving accident.
"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position).
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07/24/2008 07:57:46 PM · #448 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
You are however attempting to make my position a "Straw Man" argument in order to discount it. I was stating that you can't just "Close" New Orleans. The fact that it has existed since 1718 puts it a very special historical place and since we know what can happen to New Orleans in a disaster we should be prepared for it. Do the best we can so to speak. But you want to blame people for living in a city that has existed for over 200 years and that they should not live there because a disaster can happen. That is misdirected blame. I am sure you would blame the residents of San Francisco for their earthquakes. My point is that there exists the possibility for a natural disaster to strike anywhere in the USA and blaming the people, in the aftermath of said disaster, for not leaving before hand is silly. Like I said hate on. But your apathy is sad and you can pretend that my argument is what ever you like. |
1.) It doesn't matter how long the city has been there. The fact that they blame the government and then ask for MY money to help rebuild is a crying shame. I don't care i fyou live in a hole..but if your hole gets flooded during a hurricane..don't ask me to pay for it.
2.) A Tornado..or an earthquake are COMPLETELY different than a HURRICANE.
The former two usually give NO warning....the Hurricane is forecast days in advance of it hitting land...giving you time to get out of the way. Also..it isn't like we have EARTHQUAKE SEASON...the threat is existent...but usually not from year to year to year..like earthquakes are.
3.) I don't hate them. I just think it is ignorant and naive of people to automatically assume they are VICTIMS....and I think that it is selfish of them to blame the government for their own choices.
4.) Your position is a straw man. Please who me where I ever said we need to CLOSE down New Orleans....if they want to spend their own money...or Brad Pitt's money...to rebuild..let them. But don't blame the government and ask for my tax money to rebuild.
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 20:03:28. |
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07/24/2008 08:16:18 PM · #449 |
Originally posted by larryslights:
Straw Man:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Man I bet you are the type that blames a car for a drunk driving accident.
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Nope that is just being a Dick!
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 20:20:24. |
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07/24/2008 08:18:19 PM · #450 |
Originally posted by egamble:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
You are however attempting to make my position a "Straw Man" argument in order to discount it. I was stating that you can't just "Close" New Orleans. The fact that it has existed since 1718 puts it a very special historical place and since we know what can happen to New Orleans in a disaster we should be prepared for it. Do the best we can so to speak. But you want to blame people for living in a city that has existed for over 200 years and that they should not live there because a disaster can happen. That is misdirected blame. I am sure you would blame the residents of San Francisco for their earthquakes. My point is that there exists the possibility for a natural disaster to strike anywhere in the USA and blaming the people, in the aftermath of said disaster, for not leaving before hand is silly. Like I said hate on. But your apathy is sad and you can pretend that my argument is what ever you like. |
1.) It doesn't matter how long the city has been there. The fact that they blame the government and then ask for MY money to help rebuild is a crying shame. I don't care i fyou live in a hole..but if your hole gets flooded during a hurricane..don't ask me to pay for it.
2.) A Tornado..or an earthquake are COMPLETELY different than a HURRICANE.
The former two usually give NO warning....the Hurricane is forecast days in advance of it hitting land...giving you time to get out of the way. Also..it isn't like we have EARTHQUAKE SEASON...the threat is existent...but usually not from year to year to year..like earthquakes are.
3.) I don't hate them. I just think it is ignorant and naive of people to automatically assume they are VICTIMS....and I think that it is selfish of them to blame the government for their own choices.
4.) Your position is a straw man. Please who me where I ever said we need to CLOSE down New Orleans....if they want to spend their own money...or Brad Pitt's money...to rebuild..let them. But don't blame the government and ask for my tax money to rebuild. |
Like I said pretend what ever you want. I will blame the government for their slow response to people in need. If you want to see them as ignorant and not help so be it.
Message edited by author 2008-07-24 20:18:58. |
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