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01/04/2008 11:01:19 AM · #1026 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Melethia:
As a nontheist/pantheist/atheist (pick one from Column A, two from Column B), I don't have a problem with theists conversing with their gods. If they believe that to be true, it's not hurting me at all, and is probably good for them. |
I wish I could agree with that. (Or maybe I don't wish.) But I think hearing divine voices, or pretending to, or most accurately believing you hear divine voices when you're hearing no such thing, is dangerous for all of us. It invites dismissing reason and embracing the supernatural. Like-minded individuals elevate the "listener" and use society's terror of offending the religious sensibilities of the masses into forcing acceptance of this condition. It's bad, bad, bad. |
I guess I look at the local level rather than the international. I just know that the people I know who are very religious are good people, and if they want to have a private conversation with their god, I don't have a problem with it. This includes Christians and as of late Muslims. And yes, even Catholics, should we ever decide where they fall. Anything taken to an extreme is bad. When religion is used as a source of power, it's bad. If that weren't true, I wouldn't be where I am at the moment. But religion at a personal level isn't bad. And as for the supernatural, I've always believed in vampires. :-) |
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01/04/2008 11:01:47 AM · #1027 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Melethia:
As a nontheist/pantheist/atheist (pick one from Column A, two from Column B), I don't have a problem with theists conversing with their gods. If they believe that to be true, it's not hurting me at all, and is probably good for them. |
I wish I could agree with that. (Or maybe I don't wish.) But I think hearing divine voices, or pretending to, or most accurately believing you hear divine voices when you're hearing no such thing, is dangerous for all of us. It invites dismissing reason and embracing the supernatural. Like-minded individuals elevate the "listener" and use society's terror of offending the religious sensibilities of the masses into forcing acceptance of this condition. It's bad, bad, bad. |
I think we are all listening to voices we can't explain and don't understand. I don't know if they are God or gods or demons or ghosts or some combination or just vibrations of the Medulla Oblongata. I think the most dangerous thing is when a sense of certainty is reached about those voices, whether it is the certainty of a Pentecostal or an Islamofascist or a Nazi or a Communist. My heroes are people who approached those voices with humility, whether they were trying to understand them or transcribe them or cure them or avoid them. |
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01/04/2008 11:04:44 AM · #1028 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Melethia:
As a nontheist/pantheist/atheist (pick one from Column A, two from Column B), I don't have a problem with theists conversing with their gods. If they believe that to be true, it's not hurting me at all, and is probably good for them. |
I wish I could agree with that. (Or maybe I don't wish.) But I think hearing divine voices, or pretending to, or most accurately believing you hear divine voices when you're hearing no such thing, is dangerous for all of us. It invites dismissing reason and embracing the supernatural. Like-minded individuals elevate the "listener" and use society's terror of offending the religious sensibilities of the masses into forcing acceptance of this condition. It's bad, bad, bad. |
I think we are all listening to voices we can't explain and don't understand. I don't know if they are God or gods or demons or ghosts or some combination or just vibrations of the Medulla Oblongata. I think the most dangerous thing is when a sense of certainty is reached about those voices, whether it is the certainty of a Pentecostal or an Islamofascist or a Nazi or a Communist. My heroes are people who approached those voices with humility, whether they were trying to understand them or transcribe them or cure them or avoid them. |
Very well said. |
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01/04/2008 11:07:36 AM · #1029 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I think we are all listening to voices we can't explain and don't understand. I don't know if they are God or gods or demons or ghosts or some combination or just vibrations of the Medulla Oblongata. I think the most dangerous thing is when a sense of certainty is reached about those voices, whether it is the certainty of a Pentecostal or an Islamofascist or a Nazi or a Communist. My heroes are people who approached those voices with humility, whether they were trying to understand them or transcribe them or cure them or avoid them. |
I can see that. Now can you tell me how to get the ones in my head to shut up sometimes?? :-) |
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01/04/2008 11:10:26 AM · #1030 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by posthumous:
I think we are all listening to voices we can't explain and don't understand. I don't know if they are God or gods or demons or ghosts or some combination or just vibrations of the Medulla Oblongata. I think the most dangerous thing is when a sense of certainty is reached about those voices, whether it is the certainty of a Pentecostal or an Islamofascist or a Nazi or a Communist. My heroes are people who approached those voices with humility, whether they were trying to understand them or transcribe them or cure them or avoid them. |
I can see that. Now can you tell me how to get the ones in my head to shut up sometimes?? :-) |
That will be my next tutorial, as soon as I can get them to post the ones I've written. |
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01/04/2008 11:15:28 AM · #1031 |
If only I could get the voices in my head to tell me where some pirates buried their treasure. Then I would give the whole âvoices in my headâ more credence. Unfortunately, the voices in my head are arguing about what I should have for lunch.
Hmm ⦠WWJE? What Would Jesus Eat?
Tacos. Jesus would definitely eat tacos. Tacos with hot sauce. Jesus likes âthe spicyâ.
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01/04/2008 11:20:50 AM · #1032 |
| LOL! I just want to get the voices in Shannon's head to channel to mine for a challenge or two. |
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01/04/2008 11:31:30 AM · #1033 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I think we are all listening to voices we can't explain and don't understand. I don't know if they are God or gods or demons or ghosts or some combination or just vibrations of the Medulla Oblongata. I think the most dangerous thing is when a sense of certainty is reached about those voices, whether it is the certainty of a Pentecostal or an Islamofascist or a Nazi or a Communist. My heroes are people who approached those voices with humility, whether they were trying to understand them or transcribe them or cure them or avoid them. |
Julian Jaynes, in his brilliant book "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" (see here) has a fascinating theory. According to him (this is the dumbed-down version as I understand it, so don't hold me to this) Human beings did not become truly "conscious" in the sense that we understand it now until within historical times. Until relatively recently, he says, the human brain, like animal brains, was rigidly segregated into two halves that could not communicate with each other. So when people "heard voices" they were literally hearing the other side of their brain talking to them. The voices were "real".
He says the change came in the second millennium before Christ. He uses, among other things, detailed examination of the Iliad and the Odyssey to back up his conclusions. it's a fascinating theory. Modern-day schizophrenics, in his way of thinking, are still stuck in the "old mind".
R.
Message edited by author 2008-01-04 11:31:44.
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01/04/2008 11:33:58 AM · #1034 |
| Bear - thanks for the link. It looks interesting and I'll check it out. |
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01/04/2008 11:44:44 AM · #1035 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
And as for the supernatural, I've always believed in vampires. :-) |
I believe there really are people in this world who suck, though not necessarily vampires. ;-) |
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01/04/2008 11:48:53 AM · #1036 |
| The thing I find confusing is that if I went around telling people about my invisible friend George, and by the way George is awesome, anything I ask for he gives me, he's always with me talking to me, any nice thing I do it's because he says to, sometimes he says it's OK to kill people that don't believe in him which is unfortunate but that's just the way George is and I'm going to live happily with George forever. I'd find myself straight jacketed so fast I wouldn't have time to take one last photo. But if I call George God well then it's all good. How does that make any sense? |
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01/04/2008 11:49:15 AM · #1037 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Until relatively recently, he says, the human brain, like animal brains, was rigidly segregated into two halves that could not communicate with each other. |
How do we know animal brains are rigidly segregated? Koko may not agree. |
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01/04/2008 11:55:13 AM · #1038 |
Originally posted by Wildcard:
How does that make any sense? |
Religion does not require sense, only faith. Ask George if he's really God. If he says yes, you're in good shape. If he says no, then it's just God testing you... unless, of course, you don't subscribe to the prevailing religion of your location. Then it's really Satan no matter what he says. :-/ |
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01/04/2008 11:56:44 AM · #1039 |
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01/04/2008 12:01:05 PM · #1040 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Until relatively recently, he says, the human brain, like animal brains, was rigidly segregated into two halves that could not communicate with each other. |
How do we know animal brains are rigidly segregated? Koko may not agree. |
Don't bring your argument to ME. Read the link, and hopefully the book; it is fascinating. It basically will back up a lot of your positions.
R.
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01/04/2008 07:56:24 PM · #1041 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Originally posted by ryand:
Call me crazy, but I believe in God and I believe He speaks to us, not just because someone told me so, but because I hear Him speak. |
Why do you believe it's God speaking to you? |
Because I believe in the Bible and what He says to me lines up with what the Bible says.
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01/04/2008 09:08:09 PM · #1042 |
Originally posted by ryand:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Originally posted by ryand:
Call me crazy, but I believe in God and I believe He speaks to us, not just because someone told me so, but because I hear Him speak. |
Why do you believe it's God speaking to you? |
Because I believe in the Bible and what He says to me lines up with what the Bible says. |
Are you trying to tell us that you hear an actual, audible voice in your head? A real voice that says things you didn't already know? Or, are you speaking metaphorically, and is it more of a feeling you have that it's God speaking to you? |
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01/04/2008 09:30:46 PM · #1043 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by ryand:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Originally posted by ryand:
Call me crazy, but I believe in God and I believe He speaks to us, not just because someone told me so, but because I hear Him speak. |
Why do you believe it's God speaking to you? |
Because I believe in the Bible and what He says to me lines up with what the Bible says. |
Are you trying to tell us that you hear an actual, audible voice in your head? A real voice that says things you didn't already know? Or, are you speaking metaphorically, and is it more of a feeling you have that it's God speaking to you? |
I believe he can speak audibly, but I hear in more of a conversation in which it's not audible, but words run through my head that I know can't be my own, it isn't really something I can describe. It is something where when I ask Him something, I "hear" something that comes along with an incredible sense of peace, where it is a revelation, not something i could of thought up on my own.
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01/04/2008 10:14:39 PM · #1044 |
Originally posted by ryand:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by ryand:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Originally posted by ryand:
Call me crazy, but I believe in God and I believe He speaks to us, not just because someone told me so, but because I hear Him speak. |
Why do you believe it's God speaking to you? |
Because I believe in the Bible and what He says to me lines up with what the Bible says. |
Are you trying to tell us that you hear an actual, audible voice in your head? A real voice that says things you didn't already know? Or, are you speaking metaphorically, and is it more of a feeling you have that it's God speaking to you? |
I believe he can speak audibly, but I hear in more of a conversation in which it's not audible, but words run through my head that I know can't be my own, it isn't really something I can describe. It is something where when I ask Him something, I "hear" something that comes along with an incredible sense of peace, where it is a revelation, not something i could of thought up on my own. |
Thanks. That ain't God. I'm glad, though, that you didn't say you heard an actual audible voice, which would indicate an auditory hallucination, and which would come recommended with a psychiatric evaluation. |
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01/04/2008 11:11:07 PM · #1045 |
Originally posted by ryand:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Originally posted by ryand:
Call me crazy, but I believe in God and I believe He speaks to us, not just because someone told me so, but because I hear Him speak. |
Why do you believe it's God speaking to you? |
Because I believe in the Bible and what He says to me lines up with what the Bible says. |
I would strongly suggest you re-read your bible and perhaps not follow-through on some of the proposals contained therein... I would truly hate for a promising young person like yourself to get into trouble with the law.
Ray |
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01/04/2008 11:29:39 PM · #1046 |
Originally posted by ryand:
I hear in more of a conversation in which it's not audible, but words run through my head that I know can't be my own |
uh-oh, you know my secret for writing poetry.
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01/05/2008 11:58:07 AM · #1047 |
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01/05/2008 01:17:35 PM · #1048 |
| Insulted? Me too, when, here in a thread intended for atheists to discuss how to live in a Christian society, they started with the prosyletizing, the affirmations about how christian god-belief is absolute, how the rest are damned to eternal suffering by their eternally loving deity. Welcome to my world. |
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01/05/2008 11:51:18 PM · #1049 |
nm
Message edited by author 2008-01-06 02:33:17.
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01/06/2008 12:32:17 AM · #1050 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by ryand:
I'm outta here |
Just you, or are you taking the voices in your head with you? |
I don't see the need to be insulting. Honestly, folks, try to be reasonably civil. Persecution doesn't look any better from the other side. |
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