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12/16/2007 06:18:57 PM · #576 |
Originally posted by yanko:
So you're saying you can only meditate successfully if you focus on the super natural? What about the concept of positive thinking? I think you are selling those who don't subscribe to a supernatural belief a little short. Almost every poll that comes out shows atheists as the most distrusted group. Seems to me they better have a mechanism for dealing with all the bigotry (direct and indirect) around them. |
I don't know. Tell me different. Maybe I'm so entwined in my own worldview I just can't see it. How can positive thinking help? What are you being positive about? I guess I just don't get it.
I think about Nietzsche. "When you stare into the abyss the abyss stares back at you." When a Christian stares into the abyss, God stares back. What is staring back at you? |
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12/16/2007 06:23:27 PM · #577 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
"When you stare into the abyss the abyss stares back at you." When a Christian stares into the abyss, God stares back. What is staring back at you? |
An opportunity to go spelunking. ;-) |
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12/16/2007 07:11:34 PM · #578 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
@posthumous - The only evidence that the gospels were written after the destruction of the temple is to a priori assume that Jesus was not aware of the future. That assumption makes sense in a secular world, but makes little sense if he is God incarnate. |
No, those assumptions are based on what the writers of the gospels wrote, not just what Jesus said. |
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12/16/2007 07:28:02 PM · #579 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It sounds like you are saying that since there is no God that simple meditation works for the atheist the same way prayer or whatever works for a theist. But I would counter that even if we leave the truth of whether God exists or not, the belief that there is a higher power with your best interest in mind is a powerful boon to those who need help. |
I don't deny the power of belief - but please don't think that theists have a monopoly on empty or irrational belief systems.
As well as the rational and reasonable sources of support (usually through human relationships), people (theists or not) rely on all kinds of odd and irrational things to help them make sense of the world. Whether it is a lucky rabbit's foot, the confidence of a positive horoscope, memory of an inspirational speech, a bad joke etc etc - all kinds of things that people use to give themselves the confidence to participate in the world.
Theists simply add one more irrational source of support to the long list: god.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Atheism is a manly creed, but may not give aid when aid is needed. |
At my times of darkest need I have always been saved by people. I could have thanked god for sending them to me, but that would have belittled their generous help freely given.
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12/16/2007 07:37:47 PM · #580 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
I don't deny the power of belief - but please don't think that theists have a monopoly on empty or irrational belief systems.
As well as the rational and reasonable sources of support (usually through human relationships), people (theists or not) rely on all kinds of odd and irrational things to help them make sense of the world. Whether it is a lucky rabbit's foot, the confidence of a positive horoscope, memory of an inspirational speech, a bad joke etc etc - all kinds of things that people use to give themselves the confidence to participate in the world.
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True enough, but doesn't the "lucky rabbit's foot" counter the materialist foundation of atheism? In other words, isn't it irrational to believe in such a thing because it goes against the logic of materialism (there is nothing outside the physical world) while believing in God is entirely rational within the framework of a dualist worldview (things can and do exist outside the physical world)? |
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12/16/2007 07:38:35 PM · #581 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
@posthumous - The only evidence that the gospels were written after the destruction of the temple is to a priori assume that Jesus was not aware of the future. That assumption makes sense in a secular world, but makes little sense if he is God incarnate. |
No, those assumptions are based on what the writers of the gospels wrote, not just what Jesus said. |
Can you show me some of this? I have to admit I don't know what you are talking about. |
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12/16/2007 08:25:22 PM · #582 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
True enough, but doesn't the "lucky rabbit's foot" counter the materialist foundation of atheism? In other words, isn't it irrational to believe in such a thing because it goes against the logic of materialism (there is nothing outside the physical world) while believing in God is entirely rational within the framework of a dualist worldview (things can and do exist outside the physical world)? |
People are irrational - but most people will ultimately acknowledge that their mental self-trickery is just that when faced with empirical evidence - except perhaps in relation to religion.
We can analyse how and why luck works and is perceived, and how our brains can be fooled. We know how important self confidence can be to performance, and how to trick the mind accordingly using routines and lucky charms. We understand the power of placebo (if not the precise mechanisms).
I don't suggest abandoning these things - but nor do I suggest that we give doctors sugar pills instead of drugs, or insist that drivers carry a lucky rabbit's foot instead of insurance.
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12/16/2007 08:45:23 PM · #583 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Maybe I'm so entwined in my own worldview I just can't see it. |
I think that's about it. And there's no answer, by the way, that an atheist is going to supply you with that you won't counter with, "Well, the better way, that I subscribe to, is..." It seems to me you've done that several times here, and there's no answer you'll simply accept at face value. |
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12/16/2007 08:50:31 PM · #584 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... doesn't the "lucky rabbit's foot" counter the materialist foundation of atheism? |
Somebody once asked Niels Bohr why he had a horseshoe hanging above the front door of his house.
"Surely you, a world famous physicist, can't really believe that hanging a horseshoe above your door brings you luck?".
"Of course not," Bohr replied, "but I have been reliably informed that it will bring me luck whether I believe in it or not."
--Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962) |
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12/16/2007 08:56:43 PM · #585 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Maybe I'm so entwined in my own worldview I just can't see it. |
I think that's about it. And there's no answer, by the way, that an atheist is going to supply you with that you won't counter with, "Well, the better way, that I subscribe to, is..." It seems to me you've done that several times here, and there's no answer you'll simply accept at face value. |
That's just my way of probing thoughts and ideas to see how much is behind them. I know, it's annoying. ;)
I don't think I've pushed a "better" way, but I have tried to follow things to their logical endpoint. I did see a difference between Matthew's irrational lucky rabbit's foot and a rational belief in God. (the irrationality/rationality being a result of the worldview).
That's a good quote Paul. Cute.
Message edited by author 2007-12-16 21:03:01. |
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12/16/2007 10:25:44 PM · #586 |
Jason, out of curiousity, why do you care how atheists see the world? What difference does it make to you? You are very secure in your beliefs, and they in theirs. Why debate it at all?
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12/16/2007 10:41:40 PM · #587 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Jason, out of curiousity, why do you care how atheists see the world? What difference does it make to you? You are very secure in your beliefs, and they in theirs. Why debate it at all? |
Well, I was thinking about this while I was cleaning the garage today. I guess I wonder why an atheist argues in these things. A Christian, at least ostensibly, has the atheist's best interests in mind. If the Christian is right, he is trying to save the atheist from a bummer of an eternity. The atheist doesn't have such a reason available to him. He may be trying to save the Christian from believing in something that is false, but it could be at the cost of a belief system which provides comfort and hope in times of need.
Anyway, the bottom line of why I argue boils down to:
A) I enjoy debate.
B) I do ultimately want to keep people from a poor eternity.
C) It helps my own doubts to see that the other side does not have it all figured out either.
Just being honest there.
EDIT: I'll add a D. While I do not think I will ever change Shannon, Gordon, Matthew or Louis, there are likely lots of others reading and lurking in the thread. I want them to see that Christians are not a bunch of intellectual lightweights who shut their ears when challenged with questions about their faith.
Message edited by author 2007-12-16 22:53:46. |
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12/16/2007 11:03:29 PM · #588 |
| Fair enough. I have no reason nor desire to change your views, nor anyone else's. I also don't mind if I have a crappy eternity. I'm more concerned with the here and now for the people that mean a lot to me, so yes, my worldview is rather selfish. I'm OK with it. :-) |
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12/16/2007 11:09:53 PM · #589 |
But what if the here and now is but a blink of the eye and eternity is forever?
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12/16/2007 11:18:27 PM · #590 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
But what if the here and now is but a blink of the eye and eternity is forever? |
What if there's no such thing as eternity, and you spent so much of your life preparing for nothing instead of living life to its fullest? |
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12/16/2007 11:23:01 PM · #591 |
Please explain what living life to the fullest means. I think I do. I don't believe I am missing out on anything at all.
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12/16/2007 11:45:07 PM · #592 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Please explain what living life to the fullest means. |
It means not wasting a year/month/day/or nanosecond of your life worrying about trying to please Zeus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster in the hope of being not dead after you're dead. |
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12/16/2007 11:54:45 PM · #593 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Melethia:
Jason, out of curiousity, why do you care how atheists see the world? What difference does it make to you? You are very secure in your beliefs, and they in theirs. Why debate it at all? |
Well, I was thinking about this while I was cleaning the garage today. I guess I wonder why an atheist argues in these things. A Christian, at least ostensibly, has the atheist's best interests in mind. If the Christian is right, he is trying to save the atheist from a bummer of an eternity. The atheist doesn't have such a reason available to him. He may be trying to save the Christian from believing in something that is false, but it could be at the cost of a belief system which provides comfort and hope in times of need. |
Well, I think you're leaving out one important aspect and that is Christians in the U.S. (not saying all) are constantly pushing their beliefs onto others and trying to cement it via law. You don't see atheists trying to do the same. They are not trying to get public schools to read statements that god doesn't exist. You don't see atheists trying to define the proper ways to have sex. You don't see atheists claiming the country's culture is their's and needs to be restored. You don't see atheists trying to control people's lives. You don't see atheist training other atheists to be their next generation "warriors" (ok so I saw God's warriors special on CNN. :P). And you wonder why atheists even want to debate the issue? How about it's because they are trying to save themselves from the likes of you? It's the least they can do. Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if you give atheists allergies on purpose. :P
Message edited by author 2007-12-17 00:06:17.
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12/17/2007 12:22:24 AM · #594 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
But what if the here and now is but a blink of the eye and eternity is forever? |
I'm OK with that, too. I'll hang with the Buddhists in wherever it is I get sent. :-) |
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12/17/2007 12:28:36 AM · #595 |
| Here's an Op-Ed piece on this topic from yesterday's NY Times. |
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12/17/2007 12:30:16 AM · #596 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Melethia:
Jason, out of curiousity, why do you care how atheists see the world? What difference does it make to you? You are very secure in your beliefs, and they in theirs. Why debate it at all? |
Well, I was thinking about this while I was cleaning the garage today. I guess I wonder why an atheist argues in these things. A Christian, at least ostensibly, has the atheist's best interests in mind. If the Christian is right, he is trying to save the atheist from a bummer of an eternity. The atheist doesn't have such a reason available to him. He may be trying to save the Christian from believing in something that is false, but it could be at the cost of a belief system which provides comfort and hope in times of need. |
Well, I think you're leaving out one important aspect and that is Christians in the U.S. (not saying all) are constantly pushing their beliefs onto others and trying to cement it via law. You don't see atheists trying to do the same. They are not trying to get public schools to read statements that god doesn't exist. You don't see atheists trying to define the proper ways to have sex. You don't see atheists claiming the country's culture is their's and needs to be restored. You don't see atheists trying to control people's lives. You don't see atheist training other atheists to be their next generation "warriors" (ok so I saw God's warriors special on CNN. :P). And you wonder why atheists even want to debate the issue? How about it's because they are trying to save themselves from the likes of you? It's the least they can do. Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if you give atheists allergies on purpose. :P |
I'll grant that if a Christian "pushes" his/her view on you, you are welcome to push back. But unless atheists have no moral code, I highly doubt atheists do not wish to change the world to their viewpoint. That's human nature and your creed is just as guilty. Maybe your poster child could be Phillip Pullman or Richard Dawkins. Perhaps it could be my Biology 101 professor at WWU who felt it his right to take classtime to call Christianity "damnable lies" (which makes really little sense coming from an atheist). So don't worry Richard, there's plenty of "pushing" to go around...
EDIT: I removed a clearly wrong clause above about atheists having "no morality".
Message edited by author 2007-12-17 14:38:14. |
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12/17/2007 12:34:22 AM · #597 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Here's an Op-Ed piece on this topic from yesterday's NY Times. |
You know, I'm all for a well written op-ed, even if I disagree, but that was sorta rambling, don't you think? He starts with talking about presidential politics, takes a swipe at Pascal in the middle and for dessert lies the ills of the world and religion's feet.
Geez, Eduardo, tell us how you really feel. :/ |
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12/17/2007 12:39:19 AM · #598 |
| Gotta cover a lot in a small space -- the Times doesn't provide unlimited words the way we do here ... :-) |
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12/17/2007 12:53:45 AM · #599 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I highly doubt atheists do not wish to change the world to their viewpoint. That's human nature and your creed is just as guilty. Maybe your poster child could be Phillip Pullman or Richard Dawkins. |
Just as guilty? When did Pullman or Dawkins try to set laws governing people's actions, culture, proper sexual behavior, etc? Perhaps even athiests with high personal standards of morality don't feel the need to change the world to their viewpoint, but merely resist having someone else's mandated for them. ;-) |
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12/17/2007 01:29:00 AM · #600 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Melethia:
Jason, out of curiousity, why do you care how atheists see the world? What difference does it make to you? You are very secure in your beliefs, and they in theirs. Why debate it at all? |
Well, I was thinking about this while I was cleaning the garage today. I guess I wonder why an atheist argues in these things. A Christian, at least ostensibly, has the atheist's best interests in mind. If the Christian is right, he is trying to save the atheist from a bummer of an eternity. The atheist doesn't have such a reason available to him. He may be trying to save the Christian from believing in something that is false, but it could be at the cost of a belief system which provides comfort and hope in times of need. |
Well, I think you're leaving out one important aspect and that is Christians in the U.S. (not saying all) are constantly pushing their beliefs onto others and trying to cement it via law. You don't see atheists trying to do the same. They are not trying to get public schools to read statements that god doesn't exist. You don't see atheists trying to define the proper ways to have sex. You don't see atheists claiming the country's culture is their's and needs to be restored. You don't see atheists trying to control people's lives. You don't see atheist training other atheists to be their next generation "warriors" (ok so I saw God's warriors special on CNN. :P). And you wonder why atheists even want to debate the issue? How about it's because they are trying to save themselves from the likes of you? It's the least they can do. Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if you give atheists allergies on purpose. :P |
I'll grant that if a Christian "pushes" his/her view on you, you are welcome to push back. But unless atheists have no morality (something I've argued, but you guys don't seem to accept), I highly doubt atheists do not wish to change the world to their viewpoint. That's human nature and your creed is just as guilty. Maybe your poster child could be Phillip Pullman or Richard Dawkins. Perhaps it could be my Biology 101 professor at WWU who felt it his right to take classtime to call Christianity "damnable lies" (which makes really little sense coming from an atheist). So don't worry Richard, there's plenty of "pushing" to go around... |
But I'm not an atheist. It's hard to push "I don't know" on to people. Maybe I can push you into the abyss and you can tell me what's down there so I know what to be pushy about? :P
ETA: About that no morality thing. While I'm not an atheist or theist I am pro-life. Why would I be one if I don't get that mandate from a religious doctrine, institution or god?
Message edited by author 2007-12-17 01:36:18.
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