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12/14/2007 02:34:33 PM · #501 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Am I surprised you disagree and are able to phrase it in a derogatory way that makes me look like I believe in something a common-sense two year old would know is foolishness? |
Flash just went through and basically agreed with the post line-by-line (except for the last part, where I suggested it was ridiculous). How would you possibly phrase those stories so they DON'T sound foolish? |
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12/14/2007 02:37:26 PM · #502 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Flash just went through and basically agreed with the post line-by-line (except for the last part, where I suggested it was ridiculous). How would you possibly phrase those stories so they DON'T sound foolish? |
How about how they are phrased in the Bible? Then the "rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would say it, can be digested.
Message edited by author 2007-12-14 14:38:11.
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12/14/2007 02:55:09 PM · #503 |
Originally posted by Flash:
How about how they are phrased in the Bible? |
Sorry, my Aramaic is a little rusty, however the points do appear to be accurate per the Bible (as you confirmed). |
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12/14/2007 03:06:26 PM · #504 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Flash:
How about how they are phrased in the Bible? |
Sorry, my Aramaic is a little rusty, however the points do appear to be accurate per the Bible (as you confirmed). |
You still have yet to answer if you agree that these are basic core beliefs in christianity or not? And if not, then what do you see them as. You argue with way too much knowledge of scripture to be just an Atheist. You have developed your arguments over time with great deliberation. Your frustration with believers, is that they have not reached the same conclusions as you have, possibly from their own ignorance - thus your "tone".
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12/14/2007 03:25:18 PM · #505 |
Originally posted by Flash:
You argue with way too much knowledge of scripture to be just an Atheist. You have developed your arguments over time with great deliberation. Your frustration with believers, is that they have not reached the same conclusions as you have, possibly from their own ignorance - thus your "tone". |
I have a fair amount of knowledge of Greek mythology, too. If I wrote about that in the same "tone," you might just think it was funny. ;-)
Whether or not all Christians believe that's the core message does not change my earlier contention that the resulting course of action is entirely subject to manmade rules and interpretation (if not the core message itself). If the message and course of action were clear, there would only be a single church. |
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12/14/2007 03:35:06 PM · #506 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Flash:
You argue with way too much knowledge of scripture to be just an Atheist. You have developed your arguments over time with great deliberation. Your frustration with believers, is that they have not reached the same conclusions as you have, possibly from their own ignorance - thus your "tone". |
I have a fair amount of knowledge of Greek mythology, too. If I wrote about that in the same "tone," you might just think it was funny. ;-)
Whether or not all Christians believe that's the core message does not change my earlier contention that the resulting course of action is entirely subject to manmade rules and interpretation (if not the core message itself). If the message and course of action were clear, there would only be a single church. |
In my mind there is only a single church, that happens to have "evolved" into the current day schism ladden doctrinal differentiating manmade law inserting church. The single church today is the catholic church (small "c") = df Whole Christian Church. Just like it was intended. It would include Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and all of the Protesters. Even the Protesting Protesters. You asked for a core belief of THE christian church, the Whole Christian Church.
Message edited by author 2007-12-14 15:37:24.
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12/14/2007 04:11:42 PM · #507 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Christianity, at its core, is much more interested in our relationship with God as that will last for an eternity than with our relationship with each other (as that will be fleeting). |
"Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me." |
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12/14/2007 04:35:07 PM · #508 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The book says "Love your neighbor as yourself". How is this any more subject to interpretation than your own version? |
Perhaps because in "Do unto others ..." the "others" is indeterminate and all-inclusive. The person who lives next door is my "neighbor," but I doubt if many US citizens would so consider some guy living in Iraq or England or Australia ...
BTW: Is that commandment what inspired the storyline for Desperate Housewives?
Message edited by author 2007-12-14 16:36:19. |
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12/14/2007 04:36:03 PM · #509 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Christianity, at its core, is much more interested in our relationship with God as that will last for an eternity than with our relationship with each other (as that will be fleeting). |
"Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me." |
Most true. Fortunately Christianity is singular among world religions in that it discounts works as a means to achieve a relationship with God.
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12/14/2007 04:38:38 PM · #510 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The book says "Love your neighbor as yourself". How is this any more subject to interpretation than your own version? |
Perhaps because in "Do unto others ..." the "others" is indeterminate and all-inclusive. The person who lives next door is my "neighbor," but I doubt if many US citizens would so consider some guy living in Iraq or England or Australia ...
BTW: Is that commandment what inspired the storyline for Desperate Housewives? |
You gotta be joking. Christ wasn't even speaking english so I'm nowhere near being willing to discuss the nuance between "others" and "neighbor".
If you want more, then go back to the actual law Jesus was quoting...Leviticus 19:18 ("Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD." and Leviticus 19:34 ("But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God").
Seems pretty all inclusive to me.
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12/14/2007 04:43:06 PM · #511 |
I agree the citations from Leviticus are more inclusive than your version of the summary.
Given that the vast majority of people who are following that commandment today are doing so in English and not Aramaic, I find it wholly pertinent to consider the varying meanings and connotations which may be ascribed to those (English) words. |
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12/14/2007 04:43:58 PM · #512 |
| BTW: The previous BTW was supposed to be a joke. Sorry. |
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12/14/2007 04:50:00 PM · #513 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
BTW: The previous BTW was supposed to be a joke. Sorry. |
Ya. I caught that one. :)
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12/14/2007 04:52:52 PM · #514 |
By a coincidence (I swear!) this joke entitled "Neighbors" came in today's email:
One week after moving into his apartment, Ed called his mother to complain about his neighbors: "One woman cries all day, another lies in bed, moaning, and then there's the guy who keeps banging his head against the wall."
"You'd better keep away from them," his mother said.
"I do. I stay inside all day, playing my tuba." |
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12/14/2007 05:11:52 PM · #515 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Am I surprised you disagree and are able to phrase it in a derogatory way that makes me look like I believe in something a common-sense two year old would know is foolishness? |
Flash just went through and basically agreed with the post line-by-line (except for the last part, where I suggested it was ridiculous). How would you possibly phrase those stories so they DON'T sound foolish? |
1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Also I Cor 2:14.
God realizes that these things look like foolishness to the world. In fact it's by design. Why would He create something obvious? It would be like creating a being forced to love Him. Free will and worldly foolishness proves the love genuine.
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Christianity, at its core, is much more interested in our relationship with God as that will last for an eternity than with our relationship with each other (as that will be fleeting). |
"Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me." |
Jason is right. Luke 14:26 says that our Earthly relationships, even our self love and preservation, should pale as hatred by comparison to our love for Him. |
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12/14/2007 05:44:19 PM · #516 |
Originally posted by smurfguy:
Jason is right. Luke 14:26 says that our Earthly relationships, even our self love and preservation, should pale as hatred by comparison to our love for Him. |
"Earthly relationships" including one's own spouse and children, I assume. One more reason to reject the whole ball of wax utterly and with extreme prejudice. |
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12/14/2007 05:47:00 PM · #517 |
Originally posted by smurfguy:
God realizes that these things look like foolishness to the world. In fact it's by design. Why would He create something obvious? It would be like creating a being forced to love Him. Free will and worldly foolishness proves the love genuine. |
No, just the depthless gullability of people. |
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12/14/2007 05:49:13 PM · #518 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by smurfguy:
God realizes that these things look like foolishness to the world. In fact it's by design. Why would He create something obvious? It would be like creating a being forced to love Him. Free will and worldly foolishness proves the love genuine. |
No, just the depthless gullability of people. |
Louis, as one who has taken offense at things people have said in these threads ("patently offended" I think I've heard you say more than once), how can you not think I am just as patently offended at such a remark?
Message edited by author 2007-12-14 17:50:12. |
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12/14/2007 06:53:10 PM · #519 |
Let's change gears a bit. I want to hear from the agnostics and atheists.
Where do you guys go in those dark moments when you are alone and in despair? Is it a stiff upper lip? or is there something you draw strength from.
This question was prompted by some great lyrics by Mike Doughty's song "His Truth is Marching On". He's a completely secular singer, but I think he does well nailing the yearning which, I think, is universal among people.
They say that God is great
They say that God is love
And I believe them
Don̢۪t fear the random fate;
I trust the hand of the almighty and the infinite
His truth
Is marching on
His truth is marching on
Let me know your enormity and my tininess and
Help me see your infinity and my finite-ness and
I̢۪m fucking starved for love
I deeply need to feel connection with the infinite
I want the nourishment
I need to drink it just like water, and it will sustain me
My heart is yearning now
My arms are aching for some girl or other...didn̢۪t want me
And still I need you more
Need you to soothe this searing sadness, and the nameless gnawing
Another awesome song is "Mohammed" by the Dandy Warhols:
"Again and again
I get up and say
I only want to get it right
I only want to do the right thing
but all these demons harass my soul
I won't be today
I'm alone again
no one can make that alive
no one can say they're better, not when
all this freedom you get is a lie"
Anybody wanting to check out some good music should check out these two groups. Anyway, I want to hear from the atheists.
Message edited by author 2007-12-14 18:54:00. |
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12/14/2007 07:09:12 PM · #520 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Fortunately Christianity is singular among world religions in that it discounts works as a means to achieve a relationship with God. |
Ah, the irony. Jesus wasn't trying to make Judaism easier; he wanted more moral and spiritual diligence. Yet that very plea to turn inward and examine the inner motivations of everything you do was twisted into an excuse to ignore the laws of Leviticus and to discount the need for good works.
[21] "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, `You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.'
[22] But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.
[23] So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
[24] leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
[25] Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison;
[26] truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
[27] "You have heard that it was said, `You shall not commit adultery.'
[28] But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
[29] If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
[30] And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
[31] "It was also said, `Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
[32] But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
[33] "Again you have heard that it was said to the men of old, `You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.'
[34] But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
[35] or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
[36] And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
edited to add: Matthew 5
Message edited by author 2007-12-14 19:10:43. |
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12/14/2007 07:12:10 PM · #521 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by smurfguy:
Jason is right. Luke 14:26 says that our Earthly relationships, even our self love and preservation, should pale as hatred by comparison to our love for Him. |
"Earthly relationships" including one's own spouse and children, I assume. One more reason to reject the whole ball of wax utterly and with extreme prejudice. |
Yep, also Luke- "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
Interestingly, when a mother or father is on trial for killing a member of his or her own family because God instructed him or her to do it, it's considered an insanity defense. |
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12/14/2007 07:21:29 PM · #522 |
| You need to start contributing to this thread Shannon. It isn't going to survive your snide comments forever... |
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12/14/2007 07:23:59 PM · #523 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Fortunately Christianity is singular among world religions in that it discounts works as a means to achieve a relationship with God. |
Ah, the irony. Jesus wasn't trying to make Judaism easier; he wanted more moral and spiritual diligence. Yet that very plea to turn inward and examine the inner motivations of everything you do was twisted into an excuse to ignore the laws of Leviticus and to discount the need for good works.
[21] "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, `You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.'
[22] But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.
[23] So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
[24] leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
[25] Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison;
[26] truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
[27] "You have heard that it was said, `You shall not commit adultery.'
[28] But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
[29] If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
[30] And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
[31] "It was also said, `Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
[32] But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
[33] "Again you have heard that it was said to the men of old, `You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.'
[34] But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
[35] or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
[36] And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
edited to add: Matthew 5 |
Your point and my point are what I would call "true-true, unrelated". They are both true, but they do not have to do with each other.
Achieving rightness with God is not accomplished through deeds as we can never do enough.
Jesus definitely brought the idea that the law is about "the spirit" and not "the letter". In other words, your motivations are most important when it comes to judging deeds. |
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12/14/2007 07:33:07 PM · #524 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You need to start contributing to this thread Shannon. It isn't going to survive your snide comments forever... |
Listing the relevant passage and making an observation about law isn't contributing? I didn't even make a snide comment there! That's what the Bible says (a direct quote), and that's what happens in court. What's the problem?
Message edited by author 2007-12-14 19:34:25. |
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12/14/2007 07:41:11 PM · #525 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Achieving rightness with God is not accomplished through deeds as we can never do enough. |
I realize these things are unprovable, but my feeling is that this idea of "we can never do enough" came along long after Jesus's (un)death. From my own research on this topic, I think Jesus was exhorting people to do more. When so exhorting, it makes sense to give people a sense of "it's not enough." But this was hardly the core of what he was trying to teach. He wanted *more* doing, lots of doing, doing for the right reasons, doing quietly and not for credit. He wanted active goodness. Personally, I think this was his central message, and he would be quite dismayed to hear that he had not only been deified, but set up as a free pass to anyone who believed in him.
Obviously, I've taken the idea too far to prove scripturally, since the scripture was written after Jesus had any say about it, and Paul's miraculous resurrectioning Christ was grafted onto his story. Unfortunately, the document record is too sparse to prove or disprove my contentions. Instead, one looks at various attempts to "reverse engineer" earlier traditions and uses one's own instincts to try to hear "texts" or "voices" through the haze. I've been tuning in Jesus for a long time, slowly refining my ideas about him. For a while I thought he didn't exist at all, but then I read "Jesus the Jew" by Guy Vermes and realized that I do hear a voice there hiding behind it all, the same way I can hear Shakespeare's voice (and thus do not believe the people who say that someone else or some group of people wrote his plays). Yes, it is ultimately as an English major that I come to Jesus.
And by the way, this Jesus that I am finding, well, he's one of my favorite people. And this fellow called "Mark" is a literary genius. The Gospel of Mark is one of the greatest collaborations in history. |
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