Should you get paid? - DPChallenge Forums

11/20/2007 12:26:46 PM · #1

For all those amateur photographers shooting for peanuts and thinking it's going to open doors to the world, don't forget that you're giving it away and pissing off alot of people doing it.

-RETRACTED TO KEEP ON TOPIC- :)

Watch This

It's an excerpt of Harlan Ellison ranting about MGM doing what I talk about above for the Babylon 5 DVD. Enjoy.

Message edited by author 2007-11-20 12:31:17.

Simms

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon FD 70-210mm f/4.0 MF

11/20/2007 12:27:50 PM · #2

Wooohoo, I hope this is a dig at me offering my services for free to that guy in LA.

This is ONE argument I always enjoy.

shutterpuppy

Sony Alpha a7

11/20/2007 12:31:11 PM · #3

I would think your response to those people is that the kid down the street is probably worth $500 bucks and you get what you pay for.

11/20/2007 12:32:36 PM · #4

LOL, the comment referred to wasn't targeted at anyone, but I removed to keep a bit more focused on the video clip. Hopefully.

No Simms, promotion is one thing, what Harlan is talking about is completely another.

Simms

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Pentax SMC- DA * 50-135mm F2.8 ED (IF) SDM

11/20/2007 12:36:02 PM · #5

Originally posted by sea2c:

Fair enough... :)

travis_cooper

Pentax K10D

11/20/2007 12:51:14 PM · #6

Are you worried about a little competition? Good competition in the market place has always helped out the consumer, IMO. My wife's friend did the pictures for our wedding. They were well done, she was working at a studio at the time, but they weren't the quality of a professional wedding photographer. We understood that going in though, I wasn't willing to spend $1000 or more and not even have access to the shots other than printing them through the studio. However, her working for a dinner, or whatever we did for her, didn't hurt her studio, I would have never paid for them to take my pictures anyway because it was out of my price range. Now if somebody wants the highest quality photos rather than the cheapest photographer they can find they will go to one of those $1000+ package people. So you can't really compare an amateur to a professional IMO. Now when you are looking at two professionals that work for very different amounts of money it is just market place competition. Either they make enough money to stay in business or they will be gone soon anyway so you don't really have to worry.

If I was asked to shoot a wedding, since I have never done one before, I wouldn't start out my pricing at $1000 or anywhere near that neighborhood, because my skills don't match that right now. So your saying I should charge them similar to your prices even though you would do a better job, and somehow this gives you more business? I don't think it would work like that. Everybody is looking for the cheapest thing they can get at a certain level of quality. If I go looking for a house I already know I can't afford a million dollar home, so I don't even bother looking at those homes, but the homes in my price range don't take away business from the million dollar homes. I hope this makes sense somehow to somebody.

travis_cooper

Pentax K10D

Pentax SMC- DA * 50-135mm F2.8 ED (IF) SDM

11/20/2007 12:58:23 PM · #7

Another thing on the video. What is his interview really worth? If it added value I could see paying him for it. I have never once bought a dvd because it had some cool interview on it. He even mentioned that it isn't good publicity for him because nobody is going to watch it and think oh that is so great, let me go buy his book now. Since his interview isn't adding value to the dvd I don't think he should get paid either, at least not much. The people making these dvds know that, so if they can get people to do it for free they add it, if they can't get somebody to do it for free they don't. I bet they didn't even really care that they couldn't get his interview on there, they found something else to add that is just as non-interesting to most people.

Camabs

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 35mm f/2.0

11/20/2007 12:58:51 PM · #8

Originally posted by sea2c:

For all those amateur photographers shooting for peanuts and thinking it's going to open doors to the world, don't forget that you're giving it away and pissing off alot of people doing it.

Actually, that's not what he says and that's not what he is pissed of by. :)

Fun to watch though.

Camabs

Canon EOS-20D

Canon EF 35mm f/2.0

11/20/2007 01:01:29 PM · #9

Originally posted by travis_cooper:

I hope this makes sense somehow to somebody.

Your hope is fullfilled ;)

treyvus

Nikon D7200

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 16-85 f/3.5-5.6G ED VR

11/20/2007 01:06:03 PM · #10

Everything at the end of the day boils down to supply and demand...

Kaveran

11/20/2007 01:06:21 PM · #11

Originally posted by sea2c:

For all those amateur photographers shooting for peanuts and thinking it's going to open doors to the world, don't forget that you're giving it away and pissing off alot of people doing it.

I dont think its that cut and dry. By your logic a honda accord should cost as much as a ferrari.

If the amature can shoot as good as and supply a product of the same quality as the pro down the street then he should be charging close to the same price. But if the amature is truely an amature and cant deliver the goods, charging pro prices is detrimental to his future as a photog and the client.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

11/20/2007 01:12:13 PM · #12

Kavera/Mark,
Sorry, my point here was more to those taking the offer of nothing or next to it to do a job. Not them offering it to promote themselves/gain experience. We all have to.
But when someone comes to us and says, can you do this for nothing knowing you're a paid photog/writer/etc., especially when that someone is more than able to pay for what they're asking for.

And Travis, I do agree and hear what you're saying. But what he's talking about is a studio, not a friend to a friend.

It's always in the response that you realize what you say sounds like. For that, I'll leave the OP as is but hope people actually at least skim through all this.

KaDi

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

11/20/2007 01:17:10 PM · #13

I don't care if I piss anyone off by giving away my work. It's my work and it's mine to give away. I'm not giving away someone else's work, just mine.

The argument that amateurs are hurting pros is just poppycock. By that logic I should never repair my own toilet without hiring a plumber. I should never give money to charities that give away food or clothing to people who "should" be supporting supermarkets and department stores.

There's also nothing wrong with insisting that one be paid for their work or setting a high price. He's right, MGM is not "standing on a corner with and eye patch and a tin cup..." And I have no problem with his "selling his soul" at the highest price. But my price, from free to a million bucks, is my business...and if Harlan Ellison can't compete with me it's time he retired.

travis_cooper

Pentax K10D

Pentax SMC- DA * 50-135mm F2.8 ED (IF) SDM

11/20/2007 01:17:30 PM · #14

Originally posted by sea2c:

...
But what he's talking about is a studio, not a friend to a friend.
...

And I agree that he should get paid, assuming his work has monetary value. I just don't know that those interviews on dvds have a monetary value, and if they do it isn't much, at least in most cases. I wonder if the Seinfeld cast got paid for their extensive interviews on the Seinfeld dvds because they probably added value. I would have bought the dvds anyway, I still stand by that I have never bought a dvd based on the interviews, but I think those interviews were something that people who buy them are interested in. I just don't know why he gets so worked up, in most cases those interviews are worthless IMO.

Message edited by author 2007-11-20 13:17:54.

NVPhoto

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

11/20/2007 01:20:26 PM · #15

To all those who get mad at someone for doing a job for cheaper than they do, fix your business model because your costs are too high. I could care less that people think I do stuff too cheaply... The bottom line is I am 1. making a profit, 2. very busy and 3. pleasing my customers. If I undercut other photogs, thats not my problem and I wouldn't appologize for it either. My business includes multiple streams of revenue so I can keep prices down and a full schedule.

Word of mouth also travels fast when you have happy clients. People don't call me expecting some amazing deals, they call and say they heard I could do some work for them and then ask my rates.

No one should ever feel that they are doing the photography world a disservice by doing work for less than the competition. Its not your problem its the problem of those complaining.

muckpond

Nikon D200

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

11/20/2007 01:25:15 PM · #16

Originally posted by KaDi:

The argument that amateurs are hurting pros is just poppycock. By that logic I should never repair my own toilet without hiring a plumber. I should never give money to charities that give away food or clothing to people who "should" be supporting supermarkets and department stores.

so will you come fix my toilet? maybe i'll throw in dinner.

KaDi

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

11/20/2007 01:28:15 PM · #17

Originally posted by muckpond:

Originally posted by KaDi:
The argument that amateurs are hurting pros is just poppycock. By that logic I should never repair my own toilet without hiring a plumber. I should never give money to charities that give away food or clothing to people who "should" be supporting supermarkets and department stores.

so will you come fix my toilet? maybe i'll throw in dinner.

Send me air fare and I'm there! :)

11/20/2007 01:31:16 PM · #18

No one is complaining about you doing things at a lower cost Justin, or anyone else. My model sounds much the same as yours. I have other revenue and can afford to give a better deal.

The complaint in the clip is about a client trying to get something for nothing.

Whether or not it really adds value to a final product or not is irrelevant. If they ask you for something, there should be something in return.

Now, if I could get a Ferrari for the price of a Honda...

Prof_Fate

11/20/2007 01:43:38 PM · #19

Originally posted by Jmnuggy:

Generally I agree. A $300 wedding photographer is not hurting me, they are hurting themselves. One cannot stay in business and turn a profit at that price so directly it is not a threat to my income. Longterm it may be. It will dilute the quality of 'professional photography' (if not in fact then in clients (or potential clients) opinions of it), it will give us a black eye and may one day force changes upon the industry - and that will effect me.

Ferraris cost more than Hondas cause they are a luxury. Professional photography is a luxury too. Charge accordingly. People will pay for it. If you don't believe in yourself, no one else will either.

FocusPoint

XIAOMI Redmi Note 8 Pro

11/20/2007 02:00:10 PM · #20

I always wonder how all those car salesmen make money. I mean there are tons of dealerships around, they all give good deals and not all of them sells 60grand cars. Some sells around 18grand cars; yet, they all make money. I don't even know what is the problem here. There are good photographers, and not so good photographers, and there are customers could hire the best or not so best, depends on budget and quality. Competition is good. I don't think any money kills anyone. If it does anything, it helps.

my 2 cents

PS: I DID NOT compare photographers to used car salesmen. It was just a sample for "earning money with competition".

Kaveran

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

11/20/2007 02:00:42 PM · #21

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

Ferraris cost more than Hondas cause they are a luxury. Professional photography is a luxury too. Charge accordingly. People will pay for it. If you don't believe in yourself, no one else will either.

I understand that and agree, but as I said its not a cut and dry case.

There are many "pros" who give their work away. Their are many amatures who give their work away. Their are many "pros" who dont give their work away and should because their work sucks (ie the guy who did my wedding) and then there are amatures who charge pro rates and shouldnt. And there are many variances between all these.

The guy in the video is standing up and stating "my time is worth money and I want to be paid." Thats cool, and if he makes enough, doesnt need publiity or what have you thats his right to ask for payment or turn the job down.

Who can truely say what anyones work is worth? The value of your work is what you can get paid for it. I can go out and advertise that I do wedings for 5K, if no one hires me is my work worth 5k? If someone hires me is it worth 5k?....well it would be to someone if they paid it and where happy with the results right?

I think the whole point of this thread is to simply not underestimate your value but aside from saying that there is no real standard that can be applied.

smilebig4me1x

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

11/20/2007 02:25:59 PM · #22

I totaly understand the "time is money" mentality. if hes so adament about this then he mustve been paid to do the interview already...and who did the interview? was it MGM..if so then why cant they just use it anyway. wouldnt that make the call he got asking to use the interview a polite thing to do. whats a little free publicity gonna do to his image...surely isnt going to break the bank and might even boost him up on that pedestal a little higher.

on a side note...I know two photographers here. one charges $5K for weddings and his work sucks! the other photog does his photos for cost of prints (free) and hes awesome! he does it for "free" not just because he loves to snap off photos but because he doesnt feel his work is near good enough to charge anything for it. yeah...sure the "free" guy is hurting the "professional" bizz some but not because hes "free" but because his work is outstanding. Im slowly getting him to understand this and maybe get him on my team...lol

option

Nikon D200

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

11/20/2007 02:44:01 PM · #23

Get with the times, I posted that a week ago!

But ya, great rant.

CalamitysMaster00

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM II

11/20/2007 02:51:34 PM · #24

So is Wal-Mart an amateure then? Because some of you are directly associating price with quality (ie the honda for the price of a ferrari). There are different consumers: One who will by the expensive brand thinking its so much better because its expensive and the average consumer who needs or wants a service and can't afford to go crazy. If you are assuming the amateurs are catering to the lower class because they are cheap - then so be it, they are not taking the market you want to make a career... right? So stop crying.

If you are saying amateure because they don't have the experience and thus have to reflect price with portfolio wisdom... then everyone starts somewhere and growth is natural for any business. Who are the "Professionals" to say that someone shouldn't be reasonable and take their time.

Why does it really matter anyway? I have learned that with art/photography you can sell it for any price as people's tastes, opinions and sense of worth will always vary. If you have confidence and are enjoying what you do - you are living the dream. AND you can't make everyone else happy and I don't give a rat about my "competition" because I thank them for keeping me up to speed and on my toes.