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11/17/2007 12:27:54 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by rox_rox:
It was rare for a customer to come into the kitchen; and everyone usually panicked because kitchens are a real mess when it's busy. But I always made a point of passing customer praise along to the cooks. |
When I go back to the kitchen, I tell the servers to let them know a chef is coming in to pay his respects. So I'm always welcome, more or less. They know I know the score.
R.
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11/17/2007 12:35:50 PM · #27 |
Let's remember that hairdressers and restaurant servers often get a low wage, so the tips are the mainstay of their income. If they do a good job, consider yourself their paycheck. I remember when I did hair back in the 80s. Haircuts were 9.00 at the salon. I got half of that before taxes, so tips were a matter of my survival. Sometimes I spent up to an hour on one person. $4.50 (before taxes). There were days back then had I not gotten tips I wouldn't have been able to eat or have gas to get to work the next day.
Oh, and let's not forget the massage therapist! If you can afford 65.00 for a massage, throw them a tip. Most likely they are only getting about 25.00 for that one very physical and exhausting hour, the rest goes to the house. |
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11/17/2007 12:36:02 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by rox_rox:
It was rare for a customer to come into the kitchen; and everyone usually panicked because kitchens are a real mess when it's busy. But I always made a point of passing customer praise along to the cooks. |
When I go back to the kitchen, I tell the servers to let them know a chef is coming in to pay his respects. So I'm always welcome, more or less. They know I know the score.
R. |
Very cool. I bet you have made many a person's day.
Something I did see a lot (and find quite humorous) was the customer requesting the chef to come out into the dining room to receive their praise. There was always a scramble while he/she tried to get someone to take over the grill and look for a clean apron. |
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11/17/2007 01:08:18 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by CalliopeKel:
Let's remember that hairdressers and restaurant servers often get a low wage, so the tips are the mainstay of their income. If they do a good job, consider yourself their paycheck. I remember when I did hair back in the 80s. Haircuts were 9.00 at the salon. I got half of that before taxes, so tips were a matter of my survival. Sometimes I spent up to an hour on one person. $4.50 (before taxes). There were days back then had I not gotten tips I wouldn't have been able to eat or have gas to get to work the next day.
Oh, and let's not forget the massage therapist! If you can afford 65.00 for a massage, throw them a tip. Most likely they are only getting about 25.00 for that one very physical and exhausting hour, the rest goes to the house. |
It could be argued that is a vicious cycle. The owner figures he/she can get away with paying minimum wage because he/she counts on us to supplement the worker's wages. What other industry has some crazy scheme like that?
I'm also not sure I could feel sorry for someone earning 25.00/hour. Couldn't my tip money be spread much more effectively if I just donated it to those in actual poverty?
(I'm just debating here Kelly, not jumping on you personallY) |
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11/17/2007 01:28:30 PM · #30 |
A lot depends on the actual situation. My mother, who has been a diner waitress her whole life, makes $1.88/hr. Diners are notorious for cheap dinner specials, so a bill could be less than $20 for a couple and a small child. They stay an hour and leave $2.00. Multiply this by the 4 table maximum that each waitress gets. That's 9.88/hr. Not much in NJ with our high cost of living. She's worked a 12 hour day many times and left with less than $75 after tipping out the bus boys/bartender/hostess, that's $6.25/hr. The fault lies not with the waitress, her service or the price the diners charge. It lies with the system that lets the diners pay those types of wages.
I also waitressed nights for a year, while going to school. I also made less than $2/hr. I jumped around to maximize my income, and the best tips came from chain restaurants. A six hour shift at Red Lobster never netted me less than $150. Add in my $12 for the shift in actual pay, that's $162, a little more than $25/hour. But there were nights that the same 6 hour shift at a restaurant earned me less than $50.
And make no mistake, it is hard work! Lifting, bending, carrying heavy trays and dealing with some truly horrid people. And in my experience the worst tippers are the ones who ran you around like a chicken without a head. Needing something every couple of minutes, ordering the most expensive things and leaving $0 tip.
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11/17/2007 04:38:56 PM · #31 |
I used to deliver pizza. I got minimum wage plus tips. I used my own vehicle and paid for my own gas. I always appreciated tips and regular customers that tipped well got better service. Not just from me, but from all the drivers. We might throw in a handful of coupons for next time, or when making a "run" with several orders in it, we'd deliver their order first, regardless of the order it "should" have been delivered in.
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11/17/2007 04:44:46 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm also not sure I could feel sorry for someone earning 25.00/hour. Couldn't my tip money be spread much more effectively if I just donated it to those in actual poverty?
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Many massage therapists work exactly like hairdressers, they rent space and provide a service. Out of that $65 per massage, they have to cover all of their overhead expenses (rent, equipment, supplies, training, licenses, insurance, etc) Not to mention the work is also physically taxing, so they really can't take doing 8 massages/day 5 days/week. That's a recipe for injury. An injury that means they likely will be unable to work and thus, a loss of income.
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11/17/2007 04:44:47 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
A lot depends on the actual situation. My mother, who has been a diner waitress her whole life, makes $1.88/hr. |
Don't you have minimum wage laws over there? |
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11/17/2007 04:58:17 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm also not sure I could feel sorry for someone earning 25.00/hour. Couldn't my tip money be spread much more effectively if I just donated it to those in actual poverty?
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Many massage therapists work exactly like hairdressers, they rent space and provide a service. Out of that $65 per massage, they have to cover all of their overhead expenses (rent, equipment, supplies, training, licenses, insurance, etc) Not to mention the work is also physically taxing, so they really can't take doing 8 massages/day 5 days/week. That's a recipe for injury. An injury that means they likely will be unable to work and thus, a loss of income. |
I understand that. But if someone isn't working full time, how much do they deserve to earn a year? (that's an honest question.) I'm sure we'd all like to make tons of money, but the truth is some jobs earn less than others for various reasons. Some need little training, some only offer part time hours, some are jobs where lots of people want to do it. That's the product of capitalism (for good or bad).
Here's a pithy quote from CS Lewis for discussion:
"Sometimes our pride also hinders our charity; we are tempted to spend more than we ought on the showy forms of generosity (tipping, hospitality) and less than we ought on those who really need our help."
Message edited by author 2007-11-17 16:59:08. |
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11/17/2007 05:16:30 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by Kelli:
A lot depends on the actual situation. My mother, who has been a diner waitress her whole life, makes $1.88/hr. |
Don't you have minimum wage laws over there? |
Yes, but in a lot of states, jobs where the main source of income is tips have a much lower minimum wage than a normal job.
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11/18/2007 10:46:21 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I understand that. But if someone isn't working full time, how much do they deserve to earn a year? (that's an honest question.) I'm sure we'd all like to make tons of money, but the truth is some jobs earn less than others for various reasons. Some need little training, some only offer part time hours, some are jobs where lots of people want to do it. That's the product of capitalism (for good or bad).
Here's a pithy quote from CS Lewis for discussion:
"Sometimes our pride also hinders our charity; we are tempted to spend more than we ought on the showy forms of generosity (tipping, hospitality) and less than we ought on those who really need our help." |
How much would one expect to pay an employee to do food handling, sales, order taking, delivery, troubleshooting, aerobics, multi-tasking, complaint and abuse handling, collections, heavy lifting and janitorial work all with a smile? Add to that giving up weekends, holidays and benefits. Many servers do work full time, but they usually make less than if they worked a comparable job for regular pay; because the good paying shifts are few and must be split up amongst all employees.
I think server minimum wage is around $2.65 per hour. What's a fair wage for this work? $15.00 per hour plus benefits? I wouldn't do it for less than that. Add whatever the extra taxes would be. My rough guess is that each person would have to pay at least $3.00 per meal to cover the difference.
As long as we are talking capitalism, I also believe we should eliminate farm subsidies and pay a realistic cost for the food we buy. I primarily eat vegetables, chicken and seafood, yet I am paying to subsidize meat, dairy and corn; but that's another thread... |
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11/18/2007 11:56:12 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by rox_rox:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I understand that. But if someone isn't working full time, how much do they deserve to earn a year? (that's an honest question.) I'm sure we'd all like to make tons of money, but the truth is some jobs earn less than others for various reasons. Some need little training, some only offer part time hours, some are jobs where lots of people want to do it. That's the product of capitalism (for good or bad).
Here's a pithy quote from CS Lewis for discussion:
"Sometimes our pride also hinders our charity; we are tempted to spend more than we ought on the showy forms of generosity (tipping, hospitality) and less than we ought on those who really need our help." |
How much would one expect to pay an employee to do food handling, sales, order taking, delivery, troubleshooting, aerobics, multi-tasking, complaint and abuse handling, collections, heavy lifting and janitorial work all with a smile? Add to that giving up weekends, holidays and benefits. Many servers do work full time, but they usually make less than if they worked a comparable job for regular pay; because the good paying shifts are few and must be split up amongst all employees.
I think server minimum wage is around $2.65 per hour. What's a fair wage for this work? $15.00 per hour plus benefits? I wouldn't do it for less than that. Add whatever the extra taxes would be. My rough guess is that each person would have to pay at least $3.00 per meal to cover the difference.
As long as we are talking capitalism, I also believe we should eliminate farm subsidies and pay a realistic cost for the food we buy. I primarily eat vegetables, chicken and seafood, yet I am paying to subsidize meat, dairy and corn; but that's another thread... |
$2.65 /hr? You've got to be kidding. Are you sure the employer's not making these payments under the table?
See: //www.floridajobs.org/resources/fl_min_wage.html
Even in Canada where the minimum wage is considered low, the rate is around $8/hr depending on province.
Message edited by author 2007-11-18 12:05:09. |
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11/18/2007 12:14:55 PM · #38 |
I stand corrected. It appears that it's up to $3.77 now. When I waited tables, about 10 years ago it was $2.13.
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11/18/2007 12:18:41 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by rox_rox:
I stand corrected. It appears that it's up to $3.77 now. When I waited tables, about 10 years ago it was $2.13. |
Just another scam so employers don't have to pay a fair wage. Tips should be a bonus based on level of service. |
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11/18/2007 12:49:38 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Just another scam so employers don't have to pay a fair wage. Tips should be a bonus based on level of service. |
Here's the thing of it: employers aren't just liable for the actual cost of the wages they pay ΓΆ€” they also pay TAXES etc on those wages, to the tune of at LEAST another 25%. So, hypothetically, if I bumped all my servers up from, say, $3.00 an hour to $9.00 an hour, my actual cost would go up from $3.75 an hour per employee to $11.25 an hour per employee. That's a HUGE hit.
And the hospitality business is VERY labor-intensive; it takes, relatively speaking, MUCH more labor to serve you a nice meal then it does to, say, rent you a rowboat.
Meanwhile, "eating out" involves pretty much 100% discretionary spending. If it costs me more to eat out, I eat out less often. So as a consumer I can eat out more often if I "pay" the servers directly (avoiding all the added-on employer taxes), as compared to having the employer pay a higher wage.
There are "social arguments" pro and con this system, of course, but the bottom line is that if restaurants were forced to abandon tipping and pay a "living wage", then a LOT fewer people would be able to make a living as food servers, cooks, whatever, because there would be less traffic for the same amount of revenue collected.
R.
Message edited by author 2007-11-18 12:50:34.
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11/18/2007 01:34:51 PM · #41 |
And...servers are required to pay taxes on a percentage of their sales. When I worked in the business it was 11%. The IRS is very interested in making sure that these low-wage workers pay their due. I've heard many stories about entire restaurants being audited, with tax collectors actually following servers to verify how much they make.
The restaurants get to keep their prices lower by avoiding further taxation, the customers get to determine how much to pay for service while the servers have to approach each day like a crap shoot. If they don't feel well, or if someone else screws up, they still take the financial hit.
Message edited by author 2007-11-18 13:37:24. |
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11/18/2007 01:36:14 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Just another scam so employers don't have to pay a fair wage. Tips should be a bonus based on level of service. |
Here's the thing of it: employers aren't just liable for the actual cost of the wages they pay ΓΆ€” they also pay TAXES etc on those wages, to the tune of at LEAST another 25%. So, hypothetically, if I bumped all my servers up from, say, $3.00 an hour to $9.00 an hour, my actual cost would go up from $3.75 an hour per employee to $11.25 an hour per employee. That's a HUGE hit.
And the hospitality business is VERY labor-intensive; it takes, relatively speaking, MUCH more labor to serve you a nice meal then it does to, say, rent you a rowboat.
Meanwhile, "eating out" involves pretty much 100% discretionary spending. If it costs me more to eat out, I eat out less often. So as a consumer I can eat out more often if I "pay" the servers directly (avoiding all the added-on employer taxes), as compared to having the employer pay a higher wage.
There are "social arguments" pro and con this system, of course, but the bottom line is that if restaurants were forced to abandon tipping and pay a "living wage", then a LOT fewer people would be able to make a living as food servers, cooks, whatever, because there would be less traffic for the same amount of revenue collected.
R. |
I said nothing of a 'living wage'. I said a fair wage. They are not the same thing.
I'd say there's a huge lobby from the service industry to government to keep the system set up the way it is. As far as I'm concerned it's an excuse to legalize cheap labour. Sorry, but $3.00/hr for any job is not a fair wage. And no, every job does not warrant a living wage either.
Message edited by author 2007-11-18 13:38:43. |
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11/18/2007 01:42:36 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by rox_rox:
And...servers are required to pay taxes on a percentage of their sales. When I worked in the business it was 11%. |
Yeah, but that's INCOME tax, which the employer is not required to pay. All who earn in come have to pay tax on it directly to the government. What we're talking about is the cost of doing business, and the delicate balance between making a business so expensive to run that it STOPS doing business.
The restaurant industry employs as many people as it needs to to serve the customers who come in to buy food. If fewer people are eating out, if people are eating out less often, then there are fewer jobs, and ultimately fewer restaurants. So (the argument goes), forcing restaurants to raise wages will eventually result in fewer jobs in this segment of the economy.
It's what is called a "conundrum". I don't have the answer to it.
R.
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11/18/2007 01:46:09 PM · #44 |
There are several excuses for keeping wages low.
Last I looked, there are still a large number of restaurants in business and doing a good business and paying their employees fairly. |
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11/18/2007 01:47:46 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Sorry, but $3.00/hr for any job is not a fair wage. And no, every job does not warrant a living wage either. |
"Fair" is such a nebulous concept. The argument can be made that a "fair" wage is whatever I'm willing to work for. I've known more than a few lifelong, professional waiters/waitresses who have made minimum wage their entire careers and put their kids though college on their tip income.
Is it "fair" to set the system up this way? I don't know. But my ex-wife worked as a waitress for years, and she didn't complain about being underpaid. She made much better money waiting tables than she did in her previous job as a bank teller.
R.
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11/18/2007 01:49:17 PM · #46 |
People tend not to complain when the feel their complaints will go nowhere.
Also, it's easier to go with the flow than to try and change things for the better. |
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11/18/2007 02:00:13 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by rox_rox:
And...servers are required to pay taxes on a percentage of their sales. When I worked in the business it was 11%. |
Yeah, but that's INCOME tax, which the employer is not required to pay. All who earn in come have to pay tax on it directly to the government. What we're talking about is the cost of doing business, and the delicate balance between making a business so expensive to run that it STOPS doing business.
The restaurant industry employs as many people as it needs to to serve the customers who come in to buy food. If fewer people are eating out, if people are eating out less often, then there are fewer jobs, and ultimately fewer restaurants. So (the argument goes), forcing restaurants to raise wages will eventually result in fewer jobs in this segment of the economy.
It's what is called a "conundrum". I don't have the answer to it.
R. |
Right. The servers are required to pay their due to the government for what they make, but the employer pays taxes on a much reduced rate.
I agree it's a conundrum. Americans want their food, and they want it cheap. If we eliminated farm subsidies and if farm and restaurant workers were subject to the same minimum wage laws as other workers, almost everyone would be forced to prepare their own food.
Message edited by author 2007-11-18 14:00:43. |
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11/18/2007 02:02:55 PM · #48 |
Or how about my brother? He spent half his life in the food-service business, as a bartender, a waiter, and a restaurant manager. The manager job paid him a "fair" wage, it was more than I was making at the time for sure, and he hated it. He was paid a fixed salary, he had to work awful hours, the pressures were huge, and he made less money than he did as a server or a bartender.
In the restaurant where I worked as a chef, the servers regularly took home $300-400 a shift in tips. This was a "fine dining" establishment, so of course it was fairly pricy, but not stratospheric. There were 6 servers working most nights, so that's something like $2000/night in tips paid out.
If the owner had to pay that amount in wages, with the taxes added on that would be something like $2,500 a night more he'd have to charge for his food to earn the same amount of money. And his servers would get paid the same on slow nights as on busy nights. Tough to make that work... $2,500/night x 30 nights/month = $75,000 a month in additional expense for the owner that he has to earn back somehow to break even.
Restaurant owners I have known (and I've known quite a few) believe their waitstaff works harder and does a better job when they rely on tips for their income. It's a great motivator, and it helps weed out the people who really SHOULDN'T be serving the public, as they tend to get much lower tips.
I tend to look at food servers as being pretty close to self-employed; their income is determined by the quality of the service they give, not by the hours they put in.
R.
Message edited by author 2007-11-18 14:03:37.
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11/18/2007 02:04:28 PM · #49 |
| A small correction to my previous post after checking with my mother, she now makes $2.13/hr, which is the new minimum wage for tipped workers in NJ. |
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11/18/2007 02:04:38 PM · #50 |
Do any of you think its funny that we are expected to make up what the employer isnt willing to pay in the first place? I mean really if the employee was paid a fair wage then we wouldnt be expected to pay them extra, simply for doing their job. Now dont get me wrong I do tip for good service, but it always burns me that restraunts and other places are allowed to pay such terrible wages.
MattO
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