Encouraging people to vote - ideas.

11/10/2007 08:15:09 PM · #151

Originally posted by macrothing:

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
... Sounds good, and I support that concept. Any concrete suggestions on how best to carry that out?

~Terry

I think that's another thread... but I'll give it some thought. Of course, it doesn't matter what I think, nor you (with due respect), first it needs to be established who drives those decisions. Is it the community or is it (still?) langdon and drewmedia? Whoever, it depends what 'they' envision and would like to see, really.

The purpose of the Site Council is to keep Drew and Langdon aware of the needs of the community. The falloff in voting is an issue that I know for a fact has

langdon's attention, and the Site Council's as well.

Ultimately, as the owners of the site, Drew and Langdon have the absolute right to dictate site policy and operation, but in reality they rarely do. Most policy decisions are made by discussion among the Site Council, including Drew and Langdon (Drew has been less active in that capacity recently due to other obligations, but is still active behind the scenes). Those discussions incorporate the feedback we receive from the community and are geared toward doing what is best for the community as a whole, with the belief that what is best for the community goes hand-in-hand with what is best for the site.

It is an important distinction to make, though, that "best" and "popular" are often, but not always, the same thing.

~Terry

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

11/10/2007 09:46:42 PM · #152

I would agree with previous posts which would give the 20% rule some clout in determining whether a submitted image may remain competitive.
Our current voting process is the chosen method of determining a scale of voter/submitter preference. Failure to vote may be construed to mean a failure to complete a challenge responsibility.
My suggestion, if it has not already been made, is to relegate challenge entries to noncompetitive status if a submitter has not voted.
Noncompetitive status would not be a penalty, but rather a choice made by the photographer, and indicated by not voting.
As a legitimate entry, a noncompetitive image, would be ineligible for ranking or ribbons, however it would be maintained, complete with votes & comments at the end of the challenge in a segregated noncompetitive listing above the posted dq images.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

11/10/2007 09:50:46 PM · #153

Originally posted by macrothing:

[quote=macrothing] Not directed at anyone in particular, but how many, in between reading this thread, have one of these windows open as well:

Scene It! II

Popcorn

Single Light Source IV

If not, why not?

I don't have any of those open as I have completed voting on all of them.

Ray

11/10/2007 09:57:22 PM · #154

Originally posted by undieyatch:

Our current voting process is the chosen method of determining a scale of voter/submitter preference. Failure to vote may be construed to mean a failure to complete a challenge responsibility.

I very responsibly pay the site $25 annually. I don't need something that I pay for to start making ridiculous demands of me. Honestly, all that "mandatory voting" would lead me to do is quit altogether, and maybe ask for a prorated refund in the process.

11/10/2007 10:04:48 PM · #155

Originally posted by Rebecca:

Originally posted by undieyatch:
Our current voting process is the chosen method of determining a scale of voter/submitter preference. Failure to vote may be construed to mean a failure to complete a challenge responsibility.

I very responsibly pay the site $25 annually. I don't need something that I pay for to start making ridiculous demands of me. Honestly, all that "mandatory voting" would lead me to do is quit altogether, and maybe ask for a prorated refund in the process.

Noncompetitive status would not be a penalty, but rather a choice made by the photographer, and indicated by not voting.

I view not voting as a choice rather than a demand.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

11/10/2007 10:09:00 PM · #156

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by macrothing:
[quote=macrothing] Not directed at anyone in particular, but how many, in between reading this thread, have one of these windows open as well:

Scene It! II

Popcorn

Single Light Source IV

If not, why not?

I don't have any of those open as I have completed voting on all of them.

Ray

Me either, and I've completed voting on 2 of the 3 (I'm entered in one of them).

I just took a look at the scores threads for all three and I'm failing to see what the problem is overall. Yes, I've been following the threads but I think the reaction is a tad over the top IMO.

Scene It has 81 entries. The last score posted showed this:
Votes: 189
Views: 268

Single Light Source has 198 entries. The last score posted (12+ hours ago) showed this (with 3 days of voting left yet):
Votes: 119
Views: 160

Popcorn has 73 entries. The last score posted (22 hours ago) showed this (with 3 days, nearly 4 from last score, of voting left yet):
Votes: 176
Views: 260

Those look fairly healthy IMO. Yes/No?

11/10/2007 10:10:27 PM · #157

Originally posted by undieyatch:

As was documented earlier in this thread, we have tried this in the past, and the results were so overwhelmingly negative that the idea was quickly abandoned. It's a past mistake I wish not to repeat.

The goal should be to make voting a more attractive/positive experience, not to punish people for not voting.

~Terry

11/10/2007 10:16:57 PM · #158

Originally posted by glad2badad:

I just took a look at the scores threads for all three and I'm failing to see what the problem is overall. Yes, I've been following the threads but I think the reaction is a tad over the top IMO.

Scene It has 81 entries. The last score posted showed this:
Votes: 189
Views: 268

Single Light Source has 198 entries. The last score posted (12+ hours ago) showed this (with 3 days of voting left yet):
Votes: 119
Views: 160

Popcorn has 73 entries. The last score posted (22 hours ago) showed this (with 3 days, nearly 4 from last score, of voting left yet):
Votes: 176
Views: 260

Those look fairly healthy IMO. Yes/No?

A fair question, but keep in mind these are unusually small challenges. Statistics we have run internally show steady decreases over time in average number of votes cast per challenge, as well as total number of votes cast per challenge, in both the member and open challenges.

~Terry

Sony DT 18–55mm f/3.5–5.6 SAM AF

11/10/2007 10:20:01 PM · #159

Originally posted by undieyatch:

Originally posted by Rebecca:

Originally posted by undieyatch:
Our current voting process is the chosen method of determining a scale of voter/submitter preference. Failure to vote may be construed to mean a failure to complete a challenge responsibility.

I very responsibly pay the site $25 annually. I don't need something that I pay for to start making ridiculous demands of me. Honestly, all that "mandatory voting" would lead me to do is quit altogether, and maybe ask for a prorated refund in the process.

Noncompetitive status would not be a penalty, but rather a choice made by the photographer, and indicated by not voting.

I view not voting as a choice rather than a demand.

No, you're demanding that if I enter I must vote. That's a demand, and not what I paid $25 for.

Les_Feck

Sony SLT-A58

11/10/2007 10:21:00 PM · #160

Originally posted by RamblinR:

Originally posted by jonejess:
Teach me how "voting" makes me a better photographer.

I've seen it mentioned dozens of times in dozens of posts that voting on other peoples entries is the best way to learn. If that is the case it should be fairly simple to demonstrate.

If it could be shown that there was a correlation between one's quantity of votes and one's improvement in their own scores than I personally would vote more often, and I suspect others might as well.

Ok, here's my take on it.

When I vote I view others ideas and setups for challenges. I look at their lighting, the angle they have taken the shot from, their creativity for the shot and even get to see the imagination that others use to create a great photo.

This in turn helps me to look at the shot I am going to take more objectively. Don't do something I hated to see in someone else's shot but do do things that impressed me from shots that I liked.

This has taught me that shots that score well have the following qualities:

Focus is important (something has generally got to be in focus to draw your eye - out of focus shots leave you searching all over the shot to find out what your supposed to be drawn to)

Keep the shot simple and to the point (don't clutter it with unneeded material that doesn't help - try to keep distracting colors or items out of the shot if possible)

Lighting (try to create light and shade in a shot to give more feeling and allow better contrast - otherwise it can look flat)

That's just a few but I think that gives the general idea.

Did it take you 8300 votes to come to those conclusions?

I suspect not. Once you get beyond the broad generalities, how do you continue to learn?

What insight have have you gained in the last 1000 votes?

Which cliche shot is better than the next cliche shot. Which butterfly is better than the next? And why?

What do I gain by voting on images that I don't gain by merely viewing the images (without voting) and arriving at the same conclusions you have?

Message edited by author 2007-11-10 22:22:33.

11/10/2007 10:23:44 PM · #161

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by undieyatch:
I would agree with previous posts which would give the 20% rule some clout in determining whether a submitted image may remain competitive.
Our current voting process is the chosen method of determining a scale of voter/submitter preference. Failure to vote may be construed to mean a failure to complete a challenge responsibility.
My suggestion, if it has not already been made, is to relegate challenge entries to noncompetitive status if a submitter has not voted.
Noncompetitive status would not be a penalty, but rather a choice made by the photographer, and indicated by not voting.
As a legitimate entry, a noncompetitive image, would be ineligible for ranking or ribbons, however it would be maintained, complete with votes & comments at the end of the challenge in a segregated noncompetitive listing above the posted dq images.

As was documented earlier in this thread, we have tried this in the past, and the results were so overwhelmingly negative that the idea was quickly abandoned. It's a past mistake I wish not to repeat.

The goal should be to make voting a more attractive/positive experience, not to punish people for not voting.

~Terry

Yes I also lived through that.........
This is simply a suggestion, I am not trying to relive the past. No one is being penalized, a choice to vote or not is the question. 128 votes in a 500+ challenge is pitiful. Surely to engage in this site requires one to contribute through voting if that is the goal - My suggestion is to not require voting if one so desires. Noncompetitive status is a worthy category and should be seriously considered.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/10/2007 10:25:07 PM · #162

Originally posted by jonejess:

Originally posted by RamblinR:

Originally posted by jonejess:
Teach me how "voting" makes me a better photographer.

I've seen it mentioned dozens of times in dozens of posts that voting on other peoples entries is the best way to learn. If that is the case it should be fairly simple to demonstrate.

If it could be shown that there was a correlation between one's quantity of votes and one's improvement in their own scores than I personally would vote more often, and I suspect others might as well.

Ok, here's my take on it.

When I vote I view others ideas and setups for challenges. I look at their lighting, the angle they have taken the shot from, their creativity for the shot and even get to see the imagination that others use to create a great photo.

This in turn helps me to look at the shot I am going to take more objectively. Don't do something I hated to see in someone else's shot but do do things that impressed me from shots that I liked.

This has taught me that shots that score well have the following qualities:

Focus is important (something has generally got to be in focus to draw your eye - out of focus shots leave you searching all over the shot to find out what your supposed to be drawn to)

Keep the shot simple and to the point (don't clutter it with unneeded material that doesn't help - try to keep distracting colors or items out of the shot if possible)

Lighting (try to create light and shade in a shot to give more feeling and allow better contrast - otherwise it can look flat)

That's just a few but I think that gives the general idea.

Did it take you 8300 votes to come to those conclusions?

I suspect not. Once you get beyond the broad generalities, how do you continue to learn?

What insight have have you gained in the last 1000 votes?

Which cliche shot is better than the next cliche shot. Which butterfly is better than the next? And why?

What do I gain by voting on images that I don't gain by merely viewing the images (without voting) and arriving at the same conclusions you have?

Voting is more interactive, and commenting more interactive than that.

The more you have to think about what you like and don't like about photographs you see, the easier and more automatic it becomes to apply that to photographs you create.

As an experiment, try commenting on the photographs in just one challenge per week for about 4-6 weeks. See if it changes the way you approach your own work.

~Terry

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

11/10/2007 10:28:40 PM · #163

Has anyone looked for correlations between the decline in vote totals and:

... the running of the DPL season and subsequent hiatus?

... the recent proliferation of "Side Challenges," which have enjoyed a remarkable level of participation?

Les_Feck

Sony SLT-A58

Sony DT 18–55mm f/3.5–5.6 SAM AF

11/10/2007 10:33:45 PM · #164

Originally posted by macrothing:

I was not being facetious. I would love to see a tutorial by one of the many members who have have voted thousands, or tens of thousands of times, that describes their thought process.

Instead of focusing on how to motivate the non-voters, why not ask those that vote frequently and let them sell the benefits?

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

11/10/2007 10:34:43 PM · #165

Originally posted by Simms:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by Simms:

Originally posted by yanko:
I'm with kirbic on this issue. You can't force people to vote by taking away privileges (sorry Mark but that' what you're suggesting). They have to want to vote so just make the voting experience more enjoyable and see what that accomplishes.

As I suggested earlier if you repeat challenges, choose from the most popular ones only. We have enough data on this to figure out which has generated the most interest. Number of comments received on average of previous challenges might be a strong clue.

Make the voting different but give people the option to still vote the old way. In other words, offer more choices in the way you see the photos. For those who have large monitors give those people the option to see 2-3 photos side by side. For those who only like to vote on subjects they like then give them the option to sort by gallery type. As long as they vote 20% who cares what subject they focus on especially when they might be doing it already (wink wink).

OK, I think you are onto something here.. how about, when they decide to vote, they are presented with 20% of the entries, randomly selected.. now they have to vote on this initial 20% before the other 80% of the challenge is visible? This would stop people looking at the thumbnails page and picking the ones that look interesting. You could even engineer it so that the 20% you get to see are the 20% of the images with the lowest numbers of votes..

This would encourage entrants to vote so they could `unlock` the remaining images to see what they are up against. Even if they stop after the initial 20% at least you have got them to vote and thus pushed the voting up slightly higher.

Or even completely lock out the thumbnails page until 100% of images have been voted on.. granted afew wouldnt even bother to look, but I know that not being able to see the competition would bug the hell out of me and encourage me to vote more. I think this would generate a LOT of votes immediately after rollover.

or even make it 50%..

None of this does anything to actually help or encourage beginners.

read the topic title then come back to me.

I read it before I posted.

If you want people to participate (commenting, voting etc.) they need to feel that they are becoming better photographers and that DPC is helping them in that process. Many (most?) people come to DPC to help them improve and feel frustrated when they don't seem to get any better. That's why there are threads bemoaning the fact that an entry averaged a 4.something and received no comments. If they feel discouraged, they will not vote, comment or otherwise participate and simply let their membership expire and go elsewhere.

If we want the masses to come to DPC and participate, they need to feel they are getting something back to help them improve. Otherwise, the community will stagnate and eventually atrophy as members leave and don't come back.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

11/10/2007 10:34:59 PM · #166

Or the correlation between average length of membership and number of votes? I wonder if for some of the longer-standing members, the shininess has worn off a bit. Have new account registrations kept pace?

Let's try a different tack here:
To whom are you trying to market the idea of voting? The answer is not "everyone". The answer is "to whomever is not voting". You need to figure out who that is before asking why. And you need to ask why before trying to figure out how to win them back.

Who is the typical non-voter? Consider length of membership, league membership, etc. You've got the vote statistics to narrow the search, and then it's not too difficult to send out a quick "demographic" survey asking the more subjective questions your trackers can't track like degree of interest, side challenge participation, lifestyle pace, etc.

Then you can run a regression analysis on what you get back and maybe come up with a few main culprits - which you then can effectively attack.

The problem with simply asking the forums is that many of the people responding are not in the demographic you're trying to reach, and they make suggestions out of their own sense of injustice rather than with consideration given to the other side's viewpoint. Essentially, the research is tainted, possibly even biased against the very people you want to court.

One quick, easy thing to do right off the bat, no research necessary, is to send sweet little "we miss you" letters to anyone who hasn't logged into the site at all for some specified length of time, like two months or whatever. Consider including a brief survey there, too, asking why they left. Radio buttons are your friends.

There's the MBA student's answer, marketing + statistics. Voila.

Message edited by author 2007-11-10 23:03:03.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

11/10/2007 10:37:20 PM · #167

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by glad2badad:
I just took a look at the scores threads for all three and I'm failing to see what the problem is overall. Yes, I've been following the threads but I think the reaction is a tad over the top IMO.

Scene It has 81 entries. The last score posted showed this:
Votes: 189
Views: 268

Single Light Source has 198 entries. The last score posted (12+ hours ago) showed this (with 3 days of voting left yet):
Votes: 119
Views: 160

Popcorn has 73 entries. The last score posted (22 hours ago) showed this (with 3 days, nearly 4 from last score, of voting left yet):
Votes: 176
Views: 260

Those look fairly healthy IMO. Yes/No?

A fair question, but keep in mind these are unusually small challenges. Statistics we have run internally show steady decreases over time in average number of votes cast per challenge, as well as total number of votes cast per challenge, in both the member and open challenges.

~Terry

[Terry] "...keep in mind these are unusually small challenges..."
Is there perhaps a nugget of data in this that correlates with overall DPC interest (voting included) currently?

Spork99

OM System OM-1

11/10/2007 10:37:30 PM · #168

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Personally, I found the DPL a great encouragement to participate.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

11/10/2007 10:38:38 PM · #169

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Valid points. I thought about that as well. This would not only impact votes but overall challenge participation (entering and voting) as well.

Sony DT 18–55mm f/3.5–5.6 SAM AF

11/10/2007 10:56:28 PM · #170

Originally posted by Rebecca:

Originally posted by undieyatch:

Originally posted by Rebecca:

Originally posted by undieyatch:
Our current voting process is the chosen method of determining a scale of voter/submitter preference. Failure to vote may be construed to mean a failure to complete a challenge responsibility.

I very responsibly pay the site $25 annually. I don't need something that I pay for to start making ridiculous demands of me. Honestly, all that "mandatory voting" would lead me to do is quit altogether, and maybe ask for a prorated refund in the process.

Noncompetitive status would not be a penalty, but rather a choice made by the photographer, and indicated by not voting.

I view not voting as a choice rather than a demand.

No, you're demanding that if I enter I must vote. That's a demand, and not what I paid $25 for.

I am only suggesting that competitive status be optional.

Les_Feck

Sony SLT-A58

11/10/2007 10:56:53 PM · #171

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

As an experiment, try commenting on the photographs in just one challenge per week for about 4-6 weeks. See if it changes the way you approach your own work.
~Terry

Better define your terms and I'm all for it. You're assuming that writing my comments for all to view will make me take better pictures? Or, are you assuming that writing my comments for all to view will make me more tolerant and less critical?

Your assumption seems to be that if I am not taking sufficient time or energy before voting on, or commenting on, an image. I often spend a great deal of time on viewing an image (or a challenge) and decide that no vote or comment is the "appropriate" response.

Message edited by author 2007-11-10 22:59:42.

MikeJ

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

11/10/2007 10:57:03 PM · #172

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by MikeJ:
I don't think anyone has come up with something that's complicated enough yet.

Or in other words... if it's not fixable, don't break it worse.

...and that's why the discussion is still going. We're not just looking for a solution, we're looking for the right solution. We're not yet convinced that none exists.

~Terry

For anything to come out of a discussion, there needs to be a solution. I think this thread alone shows that there isn't going to be a solution that pleases everyone... and this is just a handful of people. Just think how anything that changes, forces, requires, gives preferential treatment, or other wise changes how people vote or don't vote now? These discussions will go on forever and there still won't be a consensus of what should be done... people will give up trying to push their favorite choice and the silence will make it seem like there is a consensus, but there really won't be one.

One thing I've seen in the 2 years I've been on DPC, minor changes move at glacial speed and big changes even slower. :D

I think people need to look back at when the apparent slow down started happening and what was going on around then. While it could have been creeping up on DPC for awhile, I think it has become apparent only in the last 4 to 6 months. So what has happened since about Spring time (in the Northern Hemisphere that is) if anything?

The main thing I've noticed is that I'm not seeing enough images in the challenges to get me to want to vote my 20%. I'll go through and look and if there are a number that I think deserve to win, that will get me to vote. Other wise I don't bother. And when I do vote or think about voting, it turns out the winners are ones that don't quit fit the challenge or in my opinion there were better ones. So it comes down to why bother since the majority of those that do vote have a much different view of the entered images than I do.

I suspect, from what others have said in threads, that this is the case with them as well. Add that to those that feel that the same challenges happen over and over (and even in my 2 years here it seems like a large percentage are repeated challenges). So it's no wonder that voting is down. If people are tired of seeing the same thing, it won't matter how many brownie points and stars and special incentives you give them, they won't start voting again. At least not for more than a challenge or two.

I think those that have suggested cutting back on the challenges are probably closer to a valid idea than any I've read on here. Too much, too often, too similar, make for very bored people. Maybe that's why it seems like there have been more instances of grumpiness in the postings in the last few months. Too many bored members that need a project to keep them busy. Give them a choice, vote or help paint the place. ;D

Mike

11/10/2007 10:58:14 PM · #173

Originally posted by undieyatch:

Originally posted by Rebecca:

Originally posted by undieyatch:

Originally posted by Rebecca:

Originally posted by undieyatch:
Our current voting process is the chosen method of determining a scale of voter/submitter preference. Failure to vote may be construed to mean a failure to complete a challenge responsibility.

I very responsibly pay the site $25 annually. I don't need something that I pay for to start making ridiculous demands of me. Honestly, all that "mandatory voting" would lead me to do is quit altogether, and maybe ask for a prorated refund in the process.

Noncompetitive status would not be a penalty, but rather a choice made by the photographer, and indicated by not voting.

I view not voting as a choice rather than a demand.

No, you're demanding that if I enter I must vote. That's a demand, and not what I paid $25 for.

I am only suggesting that competitive status be optional.

You're suggesting that voting be compulsory for those who compete, which makes it not optional, not to mention offensive to those who believe that voting on a challenge which one has entered is undesirable since it biases the vote. I can store my photos elsewhere for free, and the forums are free, so why would I pay $25 for no tangible benefit?

Message edited by author 2007-11-10 22:59:39.

11/10/2007 11:09:09 PM · #174

Originally posted by Rebecca:

Originally posted by undieyatch:

Originally posted by Rebecca:

Originally posted by undieyatch:

Originally posted by Rebecca:

Originally posted by undieyatch:
Our current voting process is the chosen method of determining a scale of voter/submitter preference. Failure to vote may be construed to mean a failure to complete a challenge responsibility.

I very responsibly pay the site $25 annually. I don't need something that I pay for to start making ridiculous demands of me. Honestly, all that "mandatory voting" would lead me to do is quit altogether, and maybe ask for a prorated refund in the process.

Noncompetitive status would not be a penalty, but rather a choice made by the photographer, and indicated by not voting.

I view not voting as a choice rather than a demand.

No, you're demanding that if I enter I must vote. That's a demand, and not what I paid $25 for.

I am only suggesting that competitive status be optional.

You're suggesting that voting be compulsory for those who compete, which makes it not optional, not to mention offensive to those who believe that voting on a challenge which one has entered is undesirable since it biases the vote. I can store my photos elsewhere for free, and the forums are free, so why would I pay $25 for no tangible benefit?

I don't have your problem with my 25 bucks. I am not on this site for tangible benefit.