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DPChallenge Forums >> Business of Photography >> Problems with a webdesigner/bride
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 11/02/2007 09:39:33 AM · #1
This summer I did a barter deal with a bride, that doesn't seem to be working itself out. I spent 8+ hours with the bride and groom in July shooting their party, wedding, and celebration afterwards. Yes, it was in that order, the day was a little different, but I digress. I was promissed a website for the work that I did for her. I put her images on my then current site so that she couild take a peek at them while she worked on my website design. Unfortunately I mistakenly didn't put a watermark on the images. I had right click protected them but she did screen capture all of the images I had placed on the site.

Now we are in November, four months post the wedding and I have this: //www.kimberlynicholephotography.com, which still says it's coming soon, and has for months. This is all I've had for four months. She had started a design that I shot down it looked like this://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g218/scrapbooklady/layout-test6.jpg
Then she recreated this:
//i57.photobucket.com/albums/g218/scrapbooklady/layout2-test1.jpg

Now I had shot both of these down and explained these were nothing like the sites I had sent her as guidelines.

I have worked on my site that I've had on smugmug during the last week and created this: //www.picturesbykim.smugmug.com
Which I am happy with, and it allows me the flexability to edit how I see fit.

I have explained to the designer that I would like my domain name back, or have the domain name directly link to the smugmugsite.

I don't feel she has held up her end of the bargain in this at all. I just would like some feedback from folks here in what they would do.

Message edited by muckpond - changed large images to links.
 11/02/2007 09:45:56 AM · #2
and what were your examples you sent her?

this looks rather cheezy to me...sorry...
 11/02/2007 09:49:02 AM · #3
Get your domain name back and move on. The deal didn't work, get out now.
 11/02/2007 09:49:31 AM · #4
Did you sign any sort of contract or memo of understanding or something similar? if so you may have legal options there. Was the domain registered in your name?? if so again you have options there to get it to a host of your liking.

Other then that if you're not getting what you like it may be time to find a new website designer. also if she took screen shots of pictures you took, even if they are of her, she is in copyright violation. and photo you take is your intelectual property until released by you. As she hasn't payed for them, she has no right to use them in anyway.
 11/02/2007 09:50:56 AM · #5
Originally posted by Puckzzz:
and what were your examples you sent her?

this looks rather cheezy to me...sorry...


Oh I absolutely agree! Here are some site I sent her:

//www.christianothweddings.com/
//www.cantrellportrait.com/
//www.brycevickmark.com/wedding/pages/04.htm
I told her this was a favorite:
//www.stephanieclarkphotography.com/#null
 11/02/2007 09:53:10 AM · #6
Originally posted by picturesbykim:
Originally posted by Puckzzz:
and what were your examples you sent her?

this looks rather cheezy to me...sorry...


Oh I absolutely agree! Here are some site I sent her:

//www.christianothweddings.com/
//www.cantrellportrait.com/
//www.brycevickmark.com/wedding/pages/04.htm
I told her this was a favorite:
//www.stephanieclarkphotography.com/#null


Made them clickable links for you...
 11/02/2007 09:54:21 AM · #7
Originally posted by cudjoem:
Did you sign any sort of contract or memo of understanding or something similar? if so you may have legal options there. Was the domain registered in your name?? if so again you have options there to get it to a host of your liking.

Other then that if you're not getting what you like it may be time to find a new website designer. also if she took screen shots of pictures you took, even if they are of her, she is in copyright violation. and photo you take is your intelectual property until released by you. As she hasn't payed for them, she has no right to use them in anyway.


Yes there are two contracts that were signed. I would hate for this to have to go to court but I figured I would have that option. The domain name was not registered in my name. She likes to register everyone's stuff in her name to keep control, I understand why now.

I have created my new website at
//www.picturesbykim.smugmug.com/#null

I don't feel I need a designer now, I've done it myself.
Thanks for the feedback on the copyright violation, I was pretty angry when I found out she had taken the shots.

Message edited by author 2007-11-02 09:59:33.
 11/02/2007 10:00:33 AM · #8
Originally posted by picturesbykim:
Yes there are two contracts that were signed. I would hate for this to have to go to court but I figured I would have that option. The domain name was not registered in my name. She likes to register everyone's stuff in her name to keep control, I understand why now.

I have created my new website at www.picturesbykim.smugmug.com
I don't feel I need a designer now, I've done it myself.
Thanks for the feedback on the copyright violation, I was pretty angry when I found out she had taken the shots.


does the contract mention anyhting about the domain belonging to you??? you shouldn't have to go to court, but sometimes a well writen letter with the threat of legal action (both for the website fiasco and the copyright issue) may just do the trick... if not, I would take her to court... if this is a business for you you can't really afford to have people messing with your identity, and your intelectual property. it would be the same if you were running a grocery store and she stole some goods. your photo's are your goods, don't let them be shoplifted.
 11/02/2007 10:23:41 AM · #9
Oh boy..I would NEVER let anyone else register MY domain...

First I would start by registering a new domain. surely you can come up with something similar to the one you have now. and start building a website on your own. or redirecting your exsisting one to it.

building a website takes time, but it is not difficult. the one you show as your favorite is lovely but a lot of work and knowledge of Flash is required. So that might be a bit too much.

What has she done with the photo's she took from you? She can't really have them printed or anything with a low webquality. As long as you have the highres files, she can't do much with the low res. unless she settles for a crappy photoalbum of her wedding ;-)

11/02/2007 10:28:19 AM · #10
Originally posted by Puckzzz:
Oh boy..I would NEVER let anyone else register MY domain...

First I would start by registering a new domain. surely you can come up with something similar to the one you have now. and start building a website on your own. or redirecting your exsisting one to it.



Yeah I've learned the hard way about my domain name :(

I have created a site at the above mentioned smugmug site. I just have to come up with a domain name.

My name is Kimberly Nichole Photography, and many combinations of that are taken except KimberlyNPhotography. All I have to do is tell Smugmug to register that name which would take about two minutes.

The designer is telling me that putting in 'effort' should account for something when it comes to getting her photos. I have many not so nice words to share with her about that!
 11/02/2007 10:34:49 AM · #11
You could pursue legal action to get your domain name back - but I doubt it would be worth the effort.

I did a quick WHOIS lookup on the domain and noticed she only registered it for a year (expires July 17th, 2008). I would go to godaddy.com (or another domain registrar) and reserve the name - so that the minute it expires it'll come under your control again. (Well there is a 2 month period after expiration). I'd also suggest going with Godaddy.com just because it is currently registered with them and may be put under your control faster.

Also, I noticed your favorite site was done in Flash. Although it may look sleek it isn't the best option for search engine optimization. Just a FYI.

Originally posted by picturesbykim:
Originally posted by Puckzzz:
and what were your examples you sent her?

this looks rather cheezy to me...sorry...


Oh I absolutely agree! Here are some site I sent her:

//www.christianothweddings.com/
//www.cantrellportrait.com/
//www.brycevickmark.com/wedding/pages/04.htm
I told her this was a favorite:
//www.stephanieclarkphotography.com/#null
11/02/2007 10:37:31 AM · #12
So..lesson learned..moving into action now.

what effort is she talking about? creating those cheezy sites you showed us? that was definately NOT what you wanted, and if she is a true designer she shouldn't have designed it like this in the first place, and secondly eventhough you two had an agreement, you are still the customer. she should design it the way the customer wants.

but I think you will be better off letting this fight go and look elsewhere for your site.

Now I'm not saying you should let HER off the hook. If you want your domain, I think you have a right to that but I don't know much about those legal things. How about those weddingphoto's? Have you held your end of the bargain and doe she now have a lovely album?
 11/02/2007 10:48:14 AM · #13
Originally posted by Puckzzz:

what effort is she talking about? creating those cheezy sites you showed us? that was definately NOT what you wanted, and if she is a true designer she shouldn't have designed it like this in the first place, and secondly eventhough you two had an agreement, you are still the customer. she should design it the way the customer wants.

Now I'm not saying you should let HER off the hook. If you want your domain, I think you have a right to that but I don't know much about those legal things. How about those weddingphoto's? Have you held your end of the bargain and doe she now have a lovely album?


The effort is the cheezy sites and a current screen shots of a flash front page. The screen shots look decent but it will be months before she actually finishes anything, at least from my experience this is what I believe.

She does NOT have a wedding album. She doesn't have anything but the screenshot images she's taken from my website. She wants to know what happens with her wedding images if I break the agreement. I plan on sending her a bill in all honesty. She needs to pay for the time and the images.
11/02/2007 11:03:19 AM · #14
Remember when you're dealing with her that int he business world 'Effort' counts for nothing. The final product is what the deal is for and unless that happens she has no legs to stand on... by her definition of "effort" the effort you put in to taking the pictures (even though you havn't released them) should cansel out and "effort" she put into and unsatisfactory product (which by her industries standard is not a final product until you say it is)
 11/02/2007 11:05:45 AM · #15
yeah, don't delete her pictures or anything but if she wants pictures she needs to give you a good website or pay you
 11/02/2007 11:11:12 AM · #16
If she wants the album, you should send her a bill for that. But I'm pretty sure she will send you a bill as well for the time she's put in for making the webpages.

so maybe on that part you might need to meet her somewhere (not halfway cause that is too much!)but maybe some sort of discount in your bill.

for her 'effort'

furthermore you can fight over the domain, but is it really worth your fuss?
There are so many names to be made from your name, surely you can think of a new one. Unless ofcourse it's been your business name for a long time. But even then a namechange won't harm you much. They will find your site if you put your previous name in the tags for searchengines.
 11/02/2007 11:33:09 AM · #17
why not just give her your normal rate for doing a wedding, let her provide HER normal rate for the work she's done to date, and see how things match up?

It seems as though both of you are kinda waiting on the other to produce results, leading to a stalemate. How bout You choose 2-3 nonpartial designers & ask what they would charge for the work she has done, and have her do the same with 2-3 photogs about your work.

There HAS to be a simple resolution. Whether it means either of you walk away still upset is up to the two of you... life is not worth worrying about one project for months - finish it & move on. <<<< meant as encouragement to finalize it & enjoy life, k?

Best of luck

Billy
 11/02/2007 11:57:31 AM · #18
And while you are waiting for someone to get off the pot, burn all the images from the wedding to a CD, fill out the Copyright form you can download from the Copyright Website, send these and $45 and get the images registered. Do it now before you start talking about copyright infringement. Yes, you own the copyright now... but if you have to take her to court over it, you still have to register and after it's called copyright infringement you get to pay the costs. If you register them first and take her to court and win, then she gets to pay all the court and legal costs. Big difference. Just the threat that someone will have to pay for copyright infringement suit is enough to make them very cooperative.

There are a number of threads on here that go into a lot more detail of this, but do yourself a big favor and get your images registered. You should be registering all your images anyway, even if everything goes smoothly with other people.

Mike

Message edited by author 2007-11-02 11:57:58.
 11/02/2007 07:31:52 PM · #19
Two contracts?
Any deadlines or penatlties for failure to perform? Any satisfaction guarantee?
I didn't look at the sites, but saw some called them 'cheesy'. Unless you have something somehow in the contracts as to the suitability of what she's doing, you may be stuck.
You took photos. Good ones you think. What does she think? It's a matter of opinion (to a degree) what is a good photo. So what is a good website? One you like? How do you put that in a contract? (Bride will design a website i like. if i don't like it, she'll do it until i do like it.)?

Just asking...i've not had someone do creative work for me. I've had a few people (hs seniors) that say 'do what you want' and then they buy very little - I assume it's because they don't like the pictures, but they never say. Perhaps they stole them off the web...it's why I will never again put pictures on the web until i've been paid at least a deposit.
 11/03/2007 11:06:36 PM · #20
Looking at this as both a photographer and web designer I am just shaking my head. You have completed your work. As far as her wanting to know what happens to her wedding photos if you break the agreement. You have already upheld your part of the agreement and can produce the album when she provides a satisfactory website. She is the one who has broken the agreement. You may want to advise her of that if you haven't already.

Her "effort" thus far in creating these 2 comps would account for about 2 hours or less of efficient work including deleting photos, changing colors, and adding your last name for her second comp.

I would also recommend you schedule a time when you can sit down with her in front of her computer and collaborate on what you want the website to look like to expedite the process as this seems to be where the hang up is. Once this is complete it shouldn't take her very long to get the site done if her programming skills are decent. You will want her to have put the site on a testing server so you can check out its functionality and be sure everything works correctly. Once she is finished with the programming she should either move the files to your hosting server or provide them to you on disk to put them up yourself.

I also agree with the others on the copyright issue. She is in copyright violation. I would definitely register your images with the copyright office before even threatening her with it. You never know who may try to beat you to registering your images and then you have to go through the hassle of proving they are your images but that is not difficult.

I hope this information helps and wish you the best of luck in this situation.

Message edited by author 2007-11-07 15:39:36.
 11/04/2007 10:41:05 AM · #21
what a mess. a textbook case of what can go wrong when two parties enter into an agreement without getting any advice BEFORE making the agreement.

from my armchair, i see two things: 1) the issue in front of you, and, more importantly, 2) your future business.

as to this issue, you're getting some good tips here so far. protect yourself, don't give anything up, and TRY to work things out reasonably. if you have a good collection of images, then you did your part. all you really want is for her to do hers (which sounds like delivering you your website). it might take some negotiation, and you might not get everything you want (at the very least, she should transfer the domain registration to you.). bottom line, you want to get past this as soon as possible.

as to your business, you really need to think about a couple things. if you are basically a hobbyist looking to pick up some gear money here and there, learn to expect this and plan for it. you won't get screwed all the time, but it's going to happen. learn to suck it up and keep on trucking.

on the other hand, if you're into this as a serious business, you need to get serious. you need to have a competent team behind you that includes an accountant and a lawyer. just as you need to be prepared to put money into equipment, computers, and software, you also need to be prepared to pay for professional services--it's all part of process. you don't have to spend big bucks on attorney fees for everything you do, but, at the least, you should have someone draft or review some basic contracts that will help mitigate situations like the one you're in now. otherwise, this type of stuff will keep happening.

there is a huge difference between having a tool that can provide a service and operating a business. i can't tell you how many IT rescue jobs i've performed over the years because a company hired an individual to "do some programming" rather than hiring a full-service IT company. the problem was that the individual only charged enough to cover what they estimated it would take to do the basic programming. they didn't think to charge for meetings, change requests, documentation, installation, training, and ongoing support. how did i get the rescue jobs? because i operated a full-service IT company.

how does this relate to photography? well, business is business, and it doesn't matter how big or how small you are. if you are going to operate professionally, you need to develop the infrastructure (which includes contracts and licenses) that will support your business. otherwise, you leave yourself open to all types of potential problems, the least of which is getting people to pay you for your sevices.

good luck!
 11/04/2007 11:06:02 AM · #22
Does the contract spell out deadlines? Does it specify that you have the right to veto designs? Is there any kind of actual procedure laid out for the creation of the site? And did you research her work to know what you could reasonably expect to get? If you pursue this with legal action of some kind, my gut tells me that if these questions aren't answered inside the contract (or if all of her sites look similar to the ones you've shown us and you should have known) then the bride has made good faith efforts to fulfill her end of the bargain, and it's not her fault that you didn't like it. Enforcing contracts is tricky - I'm studying contract law in my business law class right now and it's amazing (and frightening) how easy it is to create something that's unenforceable.
11/04/2007 11:10:16 AM · #23
Originally posted by Bujanx:
I did a quick WHOIS lookup on the domain and noticed she only registered it for a year (expires July 17th, 2008). I would go to godaddy.com (or another domain registrar) and reserve the name - so that the minute it expires it'll come under your control again. (Well there is a 2 month period after expiration).

No, this is not a good solution. You will absolutely lose your domain name this way; speculators are much better at this than you. You need to find out GoDaddy's policy on domain name ownership and transfer of ownership. For example, Tucows domain names has a simple form fax procedure. You fill out this form asserting you are the legal owner of the name, send copies of your identification, and you have your domain name back. You must find out if GoDaddy's policy is the same (it should be). Best thing is to call. Their contact information and support details are here.
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