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10/30/2007 09:55:30 AM · #101 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by muckpond:
i choose to worship the cow based solely on the brand of jeans that are hugging the mid-80s era buttocks of david hasselhoff. if they're not jordache, i'm finding another path. |
Good. And I choose to follow the God who created everything in this world, including you... and has revealed Himself in His Holy Word, the Bible.
Your choice. |
ESACTLY! (i'm so excited i can't type straight.) EXACTLY! it IS my choice! thank you for saying so!!!!!
i CHOOSE to not be preached to. i CHOOSE to not be saved. i CHOOSE to believe something else.
so why is it that just because christians are the majority i cannot CHOOSE to not listen to their message? why should i be confronted with it everywhere i turn? how do i CHOOSE to not open a kid's school folder and be faced with a subliminal message about someone wanting to save me?
THAT'S what the constitution is about. you do your thing, i'll do mine. just keep your chocolate outta my peanut butter and we can both get along just fine.
but SOME people can't leave it alone. they're not content with keeping their beliefs to themselves. they feel the need to push it onto everyone, and label those who don't feel the same way as "mistaken" or "lost."
go play in your own sandbox, please. that's all i want. i'm not denigrating your god. i'm not saying that what you believe is bunk. i'm saying that i CHOOSE to believe differently and i would LOVE IT if you would respect my right to do so.
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10/30/2007 09:55:55 AM · #102 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Does the school advertise other local businesses? Does the school charge for this advertising? Will they advertise for any and all churches? Will they advertise for any other non-profit organization? Will they advertise a gay and lesbian party? If your kid was invited to that would you just turn it down? Would the school advertise an atheist party? Would that offend you? How about a pro-choice or pro-life rally? If you want your kids to come home with religious stuff, send them to a religious school. |
This all assumes facts not in evidence. At question was a single and simple party invitation; whether the school would include a flyer about anything else is irrelevant.
Personally, I am rarely offended when people invite me to parties or to join clubs. I just evaluate whether or not I want to go/belong, and RSVP as appropriate.
There is no proof that this school is treating one group differently than another, and until there is, I fail to see what the big deal is. |
I don't think we are on the same wave length here. My last words as I'm going to bed: the school should not use my 6 year old to peddle advertising for anything!!! Religious party, haunted hayride sponsored by a satanist group or a sale at Bob's Hardware store. If it's not a school event they shouldn't be pushing it. |
THey didn't use her to peddle a single thing. The invite was for HER -- not for her to make copies and distribute to your neighborhood. |
The problem is not the invite itself. It's the means used to distribute it; the public school system, which is NOT the place for proselytizing. Public schools are funded, not in Jesus Bux, but in real tax dollars that come from people of all creeds and religions and those dollars should not be used to promote any religious views. |
But that's not what the Constitution says. That said, I think the flyer was a little over the top in including that statement. The invite to the party should have been enough. But I hardly think it's an actionable oversight. |
Fortunately the Supreme Court disagrees with you. |
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10/30/2007 09:57:02 AM · #103 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Fortunately the Supreme Court disagrees with you. |
Used to, anyway ... :-( |
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10/30/2007 09:57:26 AM · #104 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Actually, there is nothing legally preventing the school from endorsing salvation. Just a lot of hot air imagined around the first amendment. The school is not Congress. |
Actually, you seem to have no concept of how constitutional law works. If "the Congress" is prohibited from doing something, all subsidiary government entities are likewise prohibited from doing so. That's why your local County Board of Supervisors can't pass a law allowing illegal searches or reinstating slavery ... |
Sure I understand -- that is the CREATION OF A LAW -- which may or may not be unconstitutional. A local government putting out a nativity scene is not creating a law and therefore there is nothing to question. A public school teacher reading a Bible at her desk is doing nothing wrong either. |
so you'd be ok with a public school teacher reading the Koran? what about books on the occult? paganism? satanic rituals?
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10/30/2007 09:57:27 AM · #105 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Hye5:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The OP said nothing about their not having their party, just not using the public school to promote it. |
Not entirely true... the OP stated:
4. Glossy (professional!) insert for Halloween festivities held by local church. (still ok, though I don't quite understand what they mean by "Friendly costumes welcome")
5. Plain paper ad, proclaiming "GOD SPOT Block Party" & "Everything is FREE! (Just like God's Salvation)". {{{NOT OK!!!}}}
The OP was ok with using the public school to promote item 4 (halloween festivities - a party) but not item 5 (also a party). |
As Bear_Music pointed out, it was not the party invitation which was the problem, but the promotional message which accompanied it.
In the absence of a disclaimer by the school, it can make it appear that the school is endorsing the concept of salvation, which is what they're not allowed to do. Merely advertising a party sponsored by a church (or pretty much any other non-profit) is OK -- including propaganda with the invitation is not. |
Actually, there is nothing legally preventing the school from endorsing salvation. Just a lot of hot air imagined around the first amendment. The school is not Congress. |
Despite the wishes of some religious nutjobs, public schools are not the place for endorsing of ANY religion. If churches want to promote their particular flavor of worship, then they should feel free to do so outside of the public school system. |
Good job calling the Founding Fathers nutjobs. |
Nice diversion, but, like so many times before, you are incorrect. |
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10/30/2007 09:59:14 AM · #106 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
i choose to worship the cow based solely on the brand of jeans that are hugging the mid-80s era buttocks of david hasselhoff. if they're not jordache, i'm finding another path. |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Good. And I choose to follow the God who created everything in this world, including you... and has revealed Himself in His Holy Word, the Bible.
Your choice. |
That's the point......freedom of choice.
In the long run, the more information about what to choose you can have, the more intelligent of a choice can be made.
Choices made based on faith and choices based on intelligent amassing of the facts and coming to a conclusion will always be at odds.
Back to.......tolerance and understanding will be the only bridge between these two.
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10/30/2007 10:05:32 AM · #107 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
i choose to worship the cow based solely on the brand of jeans that are hugging the mid-80s era buttocks of david hasselhoff. if they're not jordache, i'm finding another path. |
Do you honestly think he would settle for less? But the great cow god (who coincidentally goes by the name of Americas most treasured actor - DIRK BENEDICT) has also been known to don a pair of zoobas pants when working on his tiger pecs. |
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10/30/2007 10:07:11 AM · #108 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by muckpond:
i choose to worship the cow based solely on the brand of jeans that are hugging the mid-80s era buttocks of david hasselhoff. if they're not jordache, i'm finding another path. |
Good. And I choose to follow the God who created everything in this world, including you... and has revealed Himself in His Holy Word, the Bible.
Your choice. |
Exactly.
Everyone's is free to choose. That's exactly why it's NOT OK for a publicly funded institution to promote any religious viewpoint. That's a job for the church. |
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10/30/2007 10:07:35 AM · #109 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
Originally posted by muckpond:
i choose to worship the cow based solely on the brand of jeans that are hugging the mid-80s era buttocks of david hasselhoff. if they're not jordache, i'm finding another path. |
Do you honestly think he would settle for less? But the great cow god (who coincidentally goes by the name of Americas most treasured actor - DIRK BENEDICT) has also been known to don a pair of zoobas pants when working on his tiger pecs. |
oh, well, then. i'm outta there. i've gotta find a deity with better fashion sense than soobaz zoobas zubaz those pants.
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10/30/2007 10:07:40 AM · #110 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by muckpond:
i choose to worship the cow based solely on the brand of jeans that are hugging the mid-80s era buttocks of david hasselhoff. if they're not jordache, i'm finding another path. |
Good. And I choose to follow the God who created everything in this world, including you... and has revealed Himself in His Holy Word, the Bible.
Your choice. |
ESACTLY! (i'm so excited i can't type straight.) EXACTLY! it IS my choice! thank you for saying so!!!!!
i CHOOSE to not be preached to. i CHOOSE to not be saved. i CHOOSE to believe something else.
so why is it that just because christians are the majority i cannot CHOOSE to not listen to their message? why should i be confronted with it everywhere i turn? how do i CHOOSE to not open a kid's school folder and be faced with a subliminal message about someone wanting to save me?
THAT'S what the constitution is about. you do your thing, i'll do mine. just keep your chocolate outta my peanut butter and we can both get along just fine.
but SOME people can't leave it alone. they're not content with keeping their beliefs to themselves. they feel the need to push it onto everyone, and label those who don't feel the same way as "mistaken" or "lost."
go play in your own sandbox, please. that's all i want. i'm not denigrating your god. i'm not saying that what you believe is bunk. i'm saying that i CHOOSE to believe differently and i would LOVE IT if you would respect my right to do so. |
So, if you choose not to be preached to, then it is incumbent upon YOU to leave from where preaching is occurring -- not to silence the preacher. That's the same backwards thinking where people thing they have a right NOT to be offended.
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10/30/2007 10:07:55 AM · #111 |
The jist of all religious debated can be summed up this:
Our religion is about open acceptance of everyone, compassion for our fellow man, forgiveness and peace, and for those who disagree with that - f-ck em, they are gonna burn in hell anyway.
Or
Your opinion is stupid because it is different then mine. |
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10/30/2007 10:08:13 AM · #112 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Actually, there is nothing legally preventing the school from endorsing salvation. Just a lot of hot air imagined around the first amendment. The school is not Congress. |
Actually, you seem to have no concept of how constitutional law works. If "the Congress" is prohibited from doing something, all subsidiary government entities are likewise prohibited from doing so. That's why your local County Board of Supervisors can't pass a law allowing illegal searches or reinstating slavery ... |
Sure I understand -- that is the CREATION OF A LAW -- which may or may not be unconstitutional. A local government putting out a nativity scene is not creating a law and therefore there is nothing to question. A public school teacher reading a Bible at her desk is doing nothing wrong either. |
so you'd be ok with a public school teacher reading the Koran? what about books on the occult? paganism? satanic rituals? |
At her desk, to herself, in her own time? Sure.
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10/30/2007 10:08:57 AM · #113 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
Originally posted by muckpond:
i choose to worship the cow based solely on the brand of jeans that are hugging the mid-80s era buttocks of david hasselhoff. if they're not jordache, i'm finding another path. |
Do you honestly think he would settle for less? But the great cow god (who coincidentally goes by the name of Americas most treasured actor - DIRK BENEDICT) has also been known to don a pair of zoobas pants when working on his tiger pecs. |
Damn, and I've spent all this time building a temple dedicated to Adrian Zmed.
Crap.
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10/30/2007 10:09:06 AM · #114 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Does the school advertise other local businesses? Does the school charge for this advertising? Will they advertise for any and all churches? Will they advertise for any other non-profit organization? Will they advertise a gay and lesbian party? If your kid was invited to that would you just turn it down? Would the school advertise an atheist party? Would that offend you? How about a pro-choice or pro-life rally? If you want your kids to come home with religious stuff, send them to a religious school. |
This all assumes facts not in evidence. At question was a single and simple party invitation; whether the school would include a flyer about anything else is irrelevant.
Personally, I am rarely offended when people invite me to parties or to join clubs. I just evaluate whether or not I want to go/belong, and RSVP as appropriate.
There is no proof that this school is treating one group differently than another, and until there is, I fail to see what the big deal is. |
I don't think we are on the same wave length here. My last words as I'm going to bed: the school should not use my 6 year old to peddle advertising for anything!!! Religious party, haunted hayride sponsored by a satanist group or a sale at Bob's Hardware store. If it's not a school event they shouldn't be pushing it. |
THey didn't use her to peddle a single thing. The invite was for HER -- not for her to make copies and distribute to your neighborhood. |
The problem is not the invite itself. It's the means used to distribute it; the public school system, which is NOT the place for proselytizing. Public schools are funded, not in Jesus Bux, but in real tax dollars that come from people of all creeds and religions and those dollars should not be used to promote any religious views. |
But that's not what the Constitution says. That said, I think the flyer was a little over the top in including that statement. The invite to the party should have been enough. But I hardly think it's an actionable oversight. |
Fortunately the Supreme Court disagrees with you. |
And they disagree with the Founding Fathers and the Constitution too. The S.C. imagined a right to privacy and validated Roe vs. Wade too -- doesn't make it right.
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10/30/2007 10:10:23 AM · #115 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
so you'd be ok with a public school teacher reading the Koran? what about books on the occult? paganism? satanic rituals? |
You bet!
I'd like to have my child be aware of the vast differences of what's out there.
Haven't any of you had to explain to your kids what the flock is up with the kids in all black with the shrapnel hanging out of their faces?
If some of these walking humanities cases were explained in their basics, then maybe it wouldn't be so one-sided.
In some countries, ALL the kids go to school in robes......I have no problem with my kid knowing that and something about why.
I believe in God, but I know something about Buddha, Allah, and many other religions, and it wasn't until I did that I was able to make my own mind up about things.
I believe in Jesus, but not as the son of God. That'll piss of Christians, but hey, I believe that he was just a really good man and that his teachings were relevant, not who he was.
That's what school is all about to me, TEACHING, and what we teach is what our kids will learn.
Personally, I'd love it if there were religion courses in school.....but for ALL the religions, and their beliefs and history, NOT to enlist.
That said, it'll never happen, but I'm also not going to make a federal case out of it if a flyer that's over the edge gets sent home. They DIDN'T proof it, they were just passing it out. They shouldn't have overlooked it, but they did.
Now it's on you to be the sharp parent, catch it, and make it into a lesson for life.
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10/30/2007 10:12:28 AM · #116 |
It's always amazing that the true tolerant ones are the ones labelled intolerant (Christians).
Those claiming they are tolerant are actually intolerant of views they don't agree with.
To TOLERATE something, by definition you disagree with it. I don't tolerate photography, I enjoy it. I tolerate anti-Christian views, because we have a right to free speech and God doesn't want mind-numbed robots, but those who choose Him in their heart. So I put up with such views, in spite of disagreement -- that's tolerance.
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10/30/2007 10:12:46 AM · #117 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
unfortunately, very few people are able to state the cultural impact of ANY religion from an objective point of view. you're demonstrating that right now -- you're not telling us why you believe what you do but are instead referring to dissenters as do-badders and liars.
it's really people like YOU who are the problem. if you could discuss this in a rational, intelligent manner it would be a lot easier to listen to what you have to say. |
no different than some of the terms i've seen bandied about referring to the Christian side of the argument...Jesus Bux? Religious nutjobs? i find both of these term to be highly offensive. and feel just as strongly about them as you do about "do-badders" and "liars". so, maybe point of view should be taken into consideration before making a statement like you made above. just sayin'
i realize that i'm behind on this but you guys are just too fast at replying for me to keep up. :P i just felt i needed to address this. |
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10/30/2007 10:21:35 AM · #118 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Does the school advertise other local businesses? Does the school charge for this advertising? Will they advertise for any and all churches? Will they advertise for any other non-profit organization? Will they advertise a gay and lesbian party? If your kid was invited to that would you just turn it down? Would the school advertise an atheist party? Would that offend you? How about a pro-choice or pro-life rally? If you want your kids to come home with religious stuff, send them to a religious school. |
This all assumes facts not in evidence. At question was a single and simple party invitation; whether the school would include a flyer about anything else is irrelevant.
Personally, I am rarely offended when people invite me to parties or to join clubs. I just evaluate whether or not I want to go/belong, and RSVP as appropriate.
There is no proof that this school is treating one group differently than another, and until there is, I fail to see what the big deal is. |
I don't think we are on the same wave length here. My last words as I'm going to bed: the school should not use my 6 year old to peddle advertising for anything!!! Religious party, haunted hayride sponsored by a satanist group or a sale at Bob's Hardware store. If it's not a school event they shouldn't be pushing it. |
THey didn't use her to peddle a single thing. The invite was for HER -- not for her to make copies and distribute to your neighborhood. |
The problem is not the invite itself. It's the means used to distribute it; the public school system, which is NOT the place for proselytizing. Public schools are funded, not in Jesus Bux, but in real tax dollars that come from people of all creeds and religions and those dollars should not be used to promote any religious views. |
But that's not what the Constitution says. That said, I think the flyer was a little over the top in including that statement. The invite to the party should have been enough. But I hardly think it's an actionable oversight. |
Fortunately the Supreme Court disagrees with you. |
And they disagree with the Founding Fathers and the Constitution too. The S.C. imagined a right to privacy and validated Roe vs. Wade too -- doesn't make it right. |
Just because they disagree with the founding fathers doesn't make them wrong. The founding fathers were evidently OK with slavery too, does that that make abolition wrong too? How about women voting, is that wrong? And Hey! those 18-21 year olds don't have any business voting either, right?
If you want the Bible in your school, there are plenty of Christian schools. If you can't find one, go out, raise some Jesus Bux and start your own Christian Madrassa and let the indoctrination begin. Just don't ask me to help pay for it.
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10/30/2007 10:21:55 AM · #119 |
I wish Darwin was still alive, so we could settle all this once and for all.
SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNNNNNDAY!
LIVE AT THE COLLISEUM.
ONE NIGHT ONLY.
CHARLES "THE EVOLUTION REVOLUTION" DARWIN
VERSUS
JESUS "TALK TO THE HAND IM THE SON OF MAN" CHRIST
FIGHT TO THE FINISH!
2 2 2 2 2 MEN WILL COME IN...ONLY ONE WILL LEAVE STANDING UP!
$15 FOR THE WHOLE SEAT........BUT YOULL ONLY NEED THE EDGE!
(ALL PROCEEDS TO BENEFIT REVEREND AL SHARPTONS SCHOOL FOR BAFFLERS OF BULLSHIT) |
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10/30/2007 10:23:08 AM · #120 |
Kind of funny. Our founding fathers didn't send flyers home, they imprinted on their thought on God on the Walls of Congress, on Pillars of the Supreme Court Building, and had church services in the White House and Capital Building. And much later our great Congress put God on our coins. Just lately, Liberal judges, not a vote of Congress for the people that they represent.
If interested, here is a link to the Library of Congress history on the subject. Maybe an eye opener for non-religious folks who have been P.C.ed by public school history of America.
//www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html |
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10/30/2007 10:25:22 AM · #121 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
It's always amazing that the true tolerant ones are the ones labelled intolerant (Christians).
Those claiming they are tolerant are actually intolerant of views they don't agree with.
To TOLERATE something, by definition you disagree with it. I don't tolerate photography, I enjoy it. I tolerate anti-Christian views, because we have a right to free speech and God doesn't want mind-numbed robots, but those who choose Him in their heart. So I put up with such views, in spite of disagreement -- that's tolerance. |
I'm tolerant of your right to believe as you wish. I expect the same.
I'm quite intolerant of the promotion of specific religious beliefs in a publicly funded school. |
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10/30/2007 10:28:43 AM · #122 |
Originally posted by sher:
Originally posted by muckpond:
unfortunately, very few people are able to state the cultural impact of ANY religion from an objective point of view. you're demonstrating that right now -- you're not telling us why you believe what you do but are instead referring to dissenters as do-badders and liars.
it's really people like YOU who are the problem. if you could discuss this in a rational, intelligent manner it would be a lot easier to listen to what you have to say. |
no different than some of the terms i've seen bandied about referring to the Christian side of the argument...Jesus Bux? Religious nutjobs? i find both of these term to be highly offensive. and feel just as strongly about them as you do about "do-badders" and "liars". so, maybe point of view should be taken into consideration before making a statement like you made above. just sayin'
i realize that i'm behind on this but you guys are just too fast at replying for me to keep up. :P i just felt i needed to address this. |
The term "Jesus Bux" came from a kid I knew in HS whose church used that term for donations. |
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10/30/2007 10:29:59 AM · #123 |
Originally posted by sher:
Originally posted by muckpond:
unfortunately, very few people are able to state the cultural impact of ANY religion from an objective point of view. you're demonstrating that right now -- you're not telling us why you believe what you do but are instead referring to dissenters as do-badders and liars.
it's really people like YOU who are the problem. if you could discuss this in a rational, intelligent manner it would be a lot easier to listen to what you have to say. |
no different than some of the terms i've seen bandied about referring to the Christian side of the argument...Jesus Bux? Religious nutjobs? i find both of these term to be highly offensive. and feel just as strongly about them as you do about "do-badders" and "liars". so, maybe point of view should be taken into consideration before making a statement like you made above. just sayin'
i realize that i'm behind on this but you guys are just too fast at replying for me to keep up. :P i just felt i needed to address this. |
touche, and you are correct. i will point out, however, that although i snickered at "Jesus Bux" (which i laughed at mostly of the context), i've refrained from any name-calling here. i don't think i referred to anyone as a nutjob or anything else derogatory, at least not in this thread.
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10/30/2007 10:34:13 AM · #124 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
So, if you choose not to be preached to, then it is incumbent upon YOU to leave from where preaching is occurring -- not to silence the preacher. That's the same backwards thinking where people thing they have a right NOT to be offended. |
so, in this instance, i'm expected to leave a publicly-funded school? one that i pay taxes for and should have a voice in the direction of? because i CHOOSE not to hear religious arguments?
this right here is the crux of the separation of church and state argument. the state is for EVERYBODY. the church is for people who CHOOSE to be there. like it or not, the public school is a STATE institution. please keep your religious activities and opinions to your own organizations.
again, i'm all for intellectual, mutually-beneficial debate. simply stating that "this is the truth. that is a lie." is not intellectual and not beneficial. it's not even debate.
this is why we can't have a rational discussion about religion in public schools or in most social contexts. people get totally offended when they're not agreed with and they refuse to hear the other point of view.
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10/30/2007 10:34:49 AM · #125 |
hail george carlin! oops wrong thread...
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