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10/30/2007 09:30:45 AM · #76 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Snip... That's where I'm having an issue... I don't see where the Christian (or other religious communities) are the ones who are rejecting other views.
...Snip... Where are Christians making other religions less important? I'm sure it happens in some form, but I would argue that it happens a lot more the other way around. |
Need I say more?
Ann Coulter |
well, i hardly want to hold up Ann Coulter as defense of my argument. she's just a freakshow all wrapped up in a cocktail dress. but i see your point. |
ROFLMAO! This type of person is being seen more and more though. Big turn off for a group trying to increase their numbers.
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10/30/2007 09:31:18 AM · #77 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Where are Christians making other religions less important? |
When they lobby (quite successfully of late) to have civil law conform to their particular version of religious righteousness? |
In other words, RESTORING civil law to the basis on which it was founded.
100% correct.
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10/30/2007 09:32:48 AM · #78 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Hye5:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The OP said nothing about their not having their party, just not using the public school to promote it. |
Not entirely true... the OP stated:
4. Glossy (professional!) insert for Halloween festivities held by local church. (still ok, though I don't quite understand what they mean by "Friendly costumes welcome")
5. Plain paper ad, proclaiming "GOD SPOT Block Party" & "Everything is FREE! (Just like God's Salvation)". {{{NOT OK!!!}}}
The OP was ok with using the public school to promote item 4 (halloween festivities - a party) but not item 5 (also a party). |
As Bear_Music pointed out, it was not the party invitation which was the problem, but the promotional message which accompanied it.
In the absence of a disclaimer by the school, it can make it appear that the school is endorsing the concept of salvation, which is what they're not allowed to do. Merely advertising a party sponsored by a church (or pretty much any other non-profit) is OK -- including propaganda with the invitation is not. |
Actually, there is nothing legally preventing the school from endorsing salvation. Just a lot of hot air imagined around the first amendment. The school is not Congress.
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10/30/2007 09:34:07 AM · #79 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Does the school advertise other local businesses? Does the school charge for this advertising? Will they advertise for any and all churches? Will they advertise for any other non-profit organization? Will they advertise a gay and lesbian party? If your kid was invited to that would you just turn it down? Would the school advertise an atheist party? Would that offend you? How about a pro-choice or pro-life rally? If you want your kids to come home with religious stuff, send them to a religious school. |
This all assumes facts not in evidence. At question was a single and simple party invitation; whether the school would include a flyer about anything else is irrelevant.
Personally, I am rarely offended when people invite me to parties or to join clubs. I just evaluate whether or not I want to go/belong, and RSVP as appropriate.
There is no proof that this school is treating one group differently than another, and until there is, I fail to see what the big deal is. |
I don't think we are on the same wave length here. My last words as I'm going to bed: the school should not use my 6 year old to peddle advertising for anything!!! Religious party, haunted hayride sponsored by a satanist group or a sale at Bob's Hardware store. If it's not a school event they shouldn't be pushing it. |
THey didn't use her to peddle a single thing. The invite was for HER -- not for her to make copies and distribute to your neighborhood. |
The problem is not the invite itself. It's the means used to distribute it; the public school system, which is NOT the place for proselytizing. Public schools are funded, not in Jesus Bux, but in real tax dollars that come from people of all creeds and religions and those dollars should not be used to promote any religious views. |
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10/30/2007 09:36:59 AM · #80 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
The school is supposed to monitor all that stuff and see that, while equal access is provided, objectionable or illegal materials are not disseminated. And the schools have been SPECIFICALLY TOLD by the courts that they cannot be in the position of advocating one religion over another. Or advocating religion at all, for that matter.
The flyer in question crosses that line by virtue of its content, plain and simple. |
So, Robert.....
Why does it seem that what you write sometimes comes through as if in invisible ink?
This is pretty straight-up and succinct.
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10/30/2007 09:38:02 AM · #81 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Hye5:
I agree that the OP took issue with the content of the flyer... and there's the rub... now we actually do run afoul of the first amendment when we put restrictions on speech by one group and not another. Not that I am taking sides one way or the other, but the two positions are inconsistent. One group can disseminate information and the other can not, based strictly on the content? Who decides what is appropriate and what is not? |
Well, theoretically the school administration has that job. Would anyone complain if the school was sending home sex education flyers? You bet they would! "Come to the Jones Clinic Safe Sex Seminar Thursday night: free cookies and condoms!"
Sheesh...
The school is supposed to monitor all that stuff and see that, while equal access is provided, objectionable or illegal materials are not disseminated. And the schools have been SPECIFICALLY TOLD by the courts that they cannot be in the position of advocating one religion over another. Or advocating religion at all, for that matter.
The flyer in question crosses that line by virtue of its content, plain and simple.
R. |
You do realize that "Jesus Christ" is in most school dictionaries. Calling for a book burning too?
Ironically, my daughter was in a 5th grade production of "The King and I" -- there is a scene in the classic musical where the chorus sings praises to Buddha and several other very religious statements. I called our school district reprsentative to voice my objection (not so much because it was in there, but because had it been praise to Christ, the world would be in an uproar and I properly felt that equal is equal is equal).
He basically backed down and said there was not much he could do since it was part of the play.
But try and have Christmas party or sing Carols... All Hell (literally) breaks loose.
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10/30/2007 09:38:57 AM · #82 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by Hye5:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Well, theoretically the school administration has that job. Would anyone complain if the school was sending home sex education flyers? You bet they would! "Come to the Jones Clinic Safe Sex Seminar Thursday night: free cookies and condoms!" |
There's a huge difference between age inappropriate material and the material at issue here. |
Okay, how about: "Come to the Evolutionists Block Party - Everything is TRUE! (Just like Darwin said)" |
Well that would be spreading a lie, wouldn't it?
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10/30/2007 09:39:00 AM · #83 |
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10/30/2007 09:39:35 AM · #84 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Hye5:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The OP said nothing about their not having their party, just not using the public school to promote it. |
Not entirely true... the OP stated:
4. Glossy (professional!) insert for Halloween festivities held by local church. (still ok, though I don't quite understand what they mean by "Friendly costumes welcome")
5. Plain paper ad, proclaiming "GOD SPOT Block Party" & "Everything is FREE! (Just like God's Salvation)". {{{NOT OK!!!}}}
The OP was ok with using the public school to promote item 4 (halloween festivities - a party) but not item 5 (also a party). |
As Bear_Music pointed out, it was not the party invitation which was the problem, but the promotional message which accompanied it.
In the absence of a disclaimer by the school, it can make it appear that the school is endorsing the concept of salvation, which is what they're not allowed to do. Merely advertising a party sponsored by a church (or pretty much any other non-profit) is OK -- including propaganda with the invitation is not. |
Actually, there is nothing legally preventing the school from endorsing salvation. Just a lot of hot air imagined around the first amendment. The school is not Congress. |
Despite the wishes of some religious nutjobs, public schools are not the place for endorsing of ANY religion. If churches want to promote their particular flavor of worship, then they should feel free to do so outside of the public school system. |
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10/30/2007 09:40:14 AM · #85 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by Hye5:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Well, theoretically the school administration has that job. Would anyone complain if the school was sending home sex education flyers? You bet they would! "Come to the Jones Clinic Safe Sex Seminar Thursday night: free cookies and condoms!" |
There's a huge difference between age inappropriate material and the material at issue here. |
Okay, how about: "Come to the Evolutionists Block Party - Everything is TRUE! (Just like Darwin said)" |
Well that would be spreading a lie, wouldn't it? |
what you consider a lie, others might consider the truth. many people consider "God's salvation" a lie too.
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10/30/2007 09:41:37 AM · #86 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by Hye5:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Well, theoretically the school administration has that job. Would anyone complain if the school was sending home sex education flyers? You bet they would! "Come to the Jones Clinic Safe Sex Seminar Thursday night: free cookies and condoms!" |
There's a huge difference between age inappropriate material and the material at issue here. |
Okay, how about: "Come to the Evolutionists Block Party - Everything is TRUE! (Just like Darwin said)" |
Well that would be spreading a lie, wouldn't it? |
As much a lie as the "promise" of salvation.
Message edited by author 2007-10-30 09:42:05. |
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10/30/2007 09:43:32 AM · #87 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Snip... That's where I'm having an issue... I don't see where the Christian (or other religious communities) are the ones who are rejecting other views.
...Snip... Where are Christians making other religions less important? I'm sure it happens in some form, but I would argue that it happens a lot more the other way around. |
Need I say more?
Ann Coulter |
Ah... duck and run.
Yes, there is plently more to be said. Ann Coulter was 100% correct in what she said FROM THE CHRISTIAN POINT OF VIEW. Everyone SHOULD be a Christian if they want to go to Heaven. That is the Christian (and Christ's) point of view. Period. End of Discussion.
No, it does not conform to man's sense of equality and fair play and blah blah blah. But a Christian can hold no other position. Jesus Christ is the only way to God. There are no others. You can believe something else if you want and I fully respect your right to do so. However, I should not be expected to respect WHAT you believe as to a Christian your belief is an anchor to a drowning man and Christ is a Life Preserver. You want to grab an anchor, so be it. Your choice. But I won't throw you one.
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10/30/2007 09:44:33 AM · #88 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
You do realize that "Jesus Christ" is in most school dictionaries. Calling for a book burning too? |
the concept of "Jesus Christ" is one that most everyone needs to be familiar with in our society today, in the same way that i think everyone should understand the concept of Allah and Buddah and many others. but there's a way of educating people about the concept of the religion without promoting it as being, pardon the pun, "gospel."
unfortunately, very few people are able to state the cultural impact of ANY religion from an objective point of view. you're demonstrating that right now -- you're not telling us why you believe what you do but are instead referring to dissenters as do-badders and liars.
it's really people like YOU who are the problem. if you could discuss this in a rational, intelligent manner it would be a lot easier to listen to what you have to say.
Message edited by author 2007-10-30 09:48:32.
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10/30/2007 09:45:38 AM · #89 |
WAIT. Let me get this straight.
So some people believe in god and stuff, and some people dont!?
GROUNDBREAKING THREAD ALERT!!!
WERE ALL WRONG.
WE SHOULD ALL JUST FINALLY ADMIT THAT WE SHOULD BE WORSHIPPING A 2 HEADED COW WITH THE LEGS OF A SUPER MODEL AND THE ASS OF A YOUNG DAVID HASSELHOFF, AND THE BODY OF 6 SIBERIAN TIGERS SEWN TOGETHER WITH THREAD INFUSED WITH THE TEARS OF ORPHANS. |
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10/30/2007 09:46:24 AM · #90 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Does the school advertise other local businesses? Does the school charge for this advertising? Will they advertise for any and all churches? Will they advertise for any other non-profit organization? Will they advertise a gay and lesbian party? If your kid was invited to that would you just turn it down? Would the school advertise an atheist party? Would that offend you? How about a pro-choice or pro-life rally? If you want your kids to come home with religious stuff, send them to a religious school. |
This all assumes facts not in evidence. At question was a single and simple party invitation; whether the school would include a flyer about anything else is irrelevant.
Personally, I am rarely offended when people invite me to parties or to join clubs. I just evaluate whether or not I want to go/belong, and RSVP as appropriate.
There is no proof that this school is treating one group differently than another, and until there is, I fail to see what the big deal is. |
I don't think we are on the same wave length here. My last words as I'm going to bed: the school should not use my 6 year old to peddle advertising for anything!!! Religious party, haunted hayride sponsored by a satanist group or a sale at Bob's Hardware store. If it's not a school event they shouldn't be pushing it. |
THey didn't use her to peddle a single thing. The invite was for HER -- not for her to make copies and distribute to your neighborhood. |
The problem is not the invite itself. It's the means used to distribute it; the public school system, which is NOT the place for proselytizing. Public schools are funded, not in Jesus Bux, but in real tax dollars that come from people of all creeds and religions and those dollars should not be used to promote any religious views. |
But that's not what the Constitution says. That said, I think the flyer was a little over the top in including that statement. The invite to the party should have been enough. But I hardly think it's an actionable oversight.
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10/30/2007 09:47:15 AM · #91 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Hye5:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The OP said nothing about their not having their party, just not using the public school to promote it. |
Not entirely true... the OP stated:
4. Glossy (professional!) insert for Halloween festivities held by local church. (still ok, though I don't quite understand what they mean by "Friendly costumes welcome")
5. Plain paper ad, proclaiming "GOD SPOT Block Party" & "Everything is FREE! (Just like God's Salvation)". {{{NOT OK!!!}}}
The OP was ok with using the public school to promote item 4 (halloween festivities - a party) but not item 5 (also a party). |
As Bear_Music pointed out, it was not the party invitation which was the problem, but the promotional message which accompanied it.
In the absence of a disclaimer by the school, it can make it appear that the school is endorsing the concept of salvation, which is what they're not allowed to do. Merely advertising a party sponsored by a church (or pretty much any other non-profit) is OK -- including propaganda with the invitation is not. |
Actually, there is nothing legally preventing the school from endorsing salvation. Just a lot of hot air imagined around the first amendment. The school is not Congress. |
Despite the wishes of some religious nutjobs, public schools are not the place for endorsing of ANY religion. If churches want to promote their particular flavor of worship, then they should feel free to do so outside of the public school system. |
Good job calling the Founding Fathers nutjobs.
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10/30/2007 09:47:26 AM · #92 |
i choose to worship the cow based solely on the brand of jeans that are hugging the mid-80s era buttocks of david hasselhoff. if they're not jordache, i'm finding another path.
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10/30/2007 09:47:50 AM · #93 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by Hye5:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Well, theoretically the school administration has that job. Would anyone complain if the school was sending home sex education flyers? You bet they would! "Come to the Jones Clinic Safe Sex Seminar Thursday night: free cookies and condoms!" |
There's a huge difference between age inappropriate material and the material at issue here. |
Okay, how about: "Come to the Evolutionists Block Party - Everything is TRUE! (Just like Darwin said)" |
Well that would be spreading a lie, wouldn't it? |
what you consider a lie, others might consider the truth. many people consider "God's salvation" a lie too. |
Darwin doesn't. Not since he died anyway.
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10/30/2007 09:48:12 AM · #94 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Actually, there is nothing legally preventing the school from endorsing salvation. Just a lot of hot air imagined around the first amendment. The school is not Congress. |
Actually, you seem to have no concept of how constitutional law works. If "the Congress" is prohibited from doing something, all subsidiary government entities are likewise prohibited from doing so. That's why your local County Board of Supervisors can't pass a law allowing illegal searches or reinstating slavery ... |
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10/30/2007 09:49:30 AM · #95 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
You do realize that "Jesus Christ" is in most school dictionaries. Calling for a book burning too? |
the concept of "Jesus Christ" is one that most everyone needs to be familiar with in our society today, in the same way that i think everyone should understand the concept of Allah and Buddah and many others. but there's a way of educating people about the concept of the religion without promoting it as being, pardon the pun, "gospel."
unfortunately, very few people are able to state the cultural impact of ANY religion from an objective point of view. you're demonstrating that right now -- you're not telling us why you believe what you do but are instead referring to dissenters as do-badders and liars.
it's really people like YOU who are the problem. if you could discuss this in a rational, intelligent manner it would be a lot easier to listen to what you have to say. |
Do-badders was a reference to ACLU types who have trashed the Constitution and trumped up the freedom from religion hyperbole we hear so much of today. Not those seeking God.
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10/30/2007 09:50:45 AM · #96 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
i choose to worship the cow based solely on the brand of jeans that are hugging the mid-80s era buttocks of david hasselhoff. if they're not jordache, i'm finding another path. |
Good. And I choose to follow the God who created everything in this world, including you... and has revealed Himself in His Holy Word, the Bible.
Your choice.
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10/30/2007 09:51:31 AM · #97 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Do-badders was a reference to ACLU types who have trashed the Constitution and trumped up the freedom from religion hyperbole we hear so much of today. Not those seeking God. |
so anyone not seeking god is a "do-badder?"
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10/30/2007 09:52:19 AM · #98 |
The problem is that it is extraordinarily difficult to raise a child with what has been tradition and still be fair.
If you celebrate Christmas only, that's not fair in principle, yet if you do nothing, that's unfair to the kids, yet how do you cover all the bases and not get into trouble?
The kids want, and deserve to, have fun, yet it's hard to do that with any fairness without giving special consideration to certain sects.
Thanksgiving isn't exactly politically correct any longer with what's come to light about that, and we certainly are stepping on toes by celebrating Independence Day considering that we practiced genocide to institute this great nation of ours.......with the blood of the native Americans (Can't say Indians any more!)
What we should preach, rather than fairness is acceptance, tolerance, and understanding. I've found through an incident where my daughter was physically attacked on the bus that this is something a lot easier, and more effective to enact than trying to "Please all the people, all the time". I put that adage in quotes because it's true and it will never happen.
The school and our family handled the incident without all the moral outrage and things were changed by demonstrating understanding.
So though I agree with  rossbilly in principle, instead of bitching about it, and I agree with his stance 100%, turn the tide and take the opportunity to explain to your child that this is how some believe.......and that you do or don't agree with it and that here in this country, they have the right to follow their hearts and minds in complete freedom, as do you.
We'll never be able to get it all sorted out to be perfectly politically correct and fair, but if we use these little incidents to educate rather than inflame, maybe our kids will learn understanding and tolerance from us and their lives won't be as confusing as ours.
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10/30/2007 09:52:27 AM · #99 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Actually, there is nothing legally preventing the school from endorsing salvation. Just a lot of hot air imagined around the first amendment. The school is not Congress. |
Actually, you seem to have no concept of how constitutional law works. If "the Congress" is prohibited from doing something, all subsidiary government entities are likewise prohibited from doing so. That's why your local County Board of Supervisors can't pass a law allowing illegal searches or reinstating slavery ... |
Sure I understand -- that is the CREATION OF A LAW -- which may or may not be unconstitutional. A local government putting out a nativity scene is not creating a law and therefore there is nothing to question. A public school teacher reading a Bible at her desk is doing nothing wrong either.
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10/30/2007 09:54:16 AM · #100 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
i choose to worship the cow based solely on the brand of jeans that are hugging the mid-80s era buttocks of david hasselhoff. if they're not jordache, i'm finding another path. |
David Hasselhoff's ass was never all that.
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