Copyright issue, book cover sold

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

10/22/2007 03:22:50 PM · #1

Originally posted by their release:

This agreement grants us permission to use this photo on all editions of this book published by
us now or in the future throughout North America, and in any advertising or promotion of this
book.

Now, the way I see it, that means they can do another run of 8,000 in a different edition, and still have the copyright. Am I wrong? Also, is it really "industry standard" to force photographers or illustrators to give away the advertising rights? Since the page dimensions of the advertisement aren't listed in this agreement, how can I be doing anything other than just throwing away my right to customary payment?

I'm just confused here, and this doesn't seem right to me. If it really is customary to do this, I'll back off, but I'm unsure right now.

Message edited by author 2007-10-22 15:23:18.

Prof_Fate

10/22/2007 03:30:52 PM · #2

They don't now, or never have had, the copyright - you still do.
What they want, and you are giving them, is a LICENSE to use the image for a specific use and time.

Explain how you think they can put an image on the cover, and then use a photo of the book in an ad or poster (or mailing or book club ad, etc) and NOT show the cover of the book (your image)? Seems you're asking the impossible.

The cover image ALWAYS is worth more because it is used to sell the book - like the design of a car rather than the mechanicals or interior.

As to limiting the run to 8000 or one edition, or one continent - it all depends on what you're getting paid. More use means more money.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

10/22/2007 03:30:53 PM · #3

Well, it seems logical to me that if they're going to advertise the book, they'd want to picture it in the ad. I think you need to calculate that use into your licensing fee.

As to using it again on a separate edition or run, that is something for which you should negotiate a separate payment -- it should not be automatically be included in your initial licensing.

The problem is, unless you have a really unique photo, you may not be in the strongest negotiating position.

fotomann_forever

10/22/2007 03:39:14 PM · #4

Well, since I know they found your photo on Flickr... I would assume they think they can play hardball with an amateur.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

10/22/2007 03:41:15 PM · #5

Originally posted by wavelength:

I have a small issue with the publisher that recently bought one of my pictures for a book.

I sent them a copyright agreement, that specifically excluded advertising rights, and gave them permission for a run of 8,000 books of whatever nature.

They sent me back a different agreemtent, that includes this language:
Originally posted by their release:
This agreement grants us permission to use this photo on all editions of this book published by
us now or in the future throughout North America, and in any advertising or promotion of this
book.

This is absolutely standard. They HAVE to be able to promote their book, which means showing pictures of the cover, including your photo. I have never personally heard of a contract specifying "x" number of copies before more money must be paid. I have done a bunch of book covers (shot 'em, designed 'em sometimes) and I've never specified any such thing.

Except for major houses/bestsellers and the textbook field, publishing is basically a really low-margin proposition anyway. So unless you are giving them the image dirt-cheap, I wouldn't fuss over this issue.

What's "dirt-cheap"? 50 bucks or something; then maybe say if they do a second press run (meaning the book is selling) they owe you "x" amount more for usage in all future runs. But if they found the image online in Flickr, they might just look for another image in that case...

R.

Message edited by author 2007-10-22 15:42:22.

10/22/2007 03:43:18 PM · #6

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

Explain how you think they can put an image on the cover, and then use a photo of the book in an ad or poster (or mailing or book club ad, etc) and NOT show the cover of the book (your image)? Seems you're asking the impossible.

Not asking the impossible, I'm just thinking that advertising and publishing should be two separate agreements. What they are asking for is Royaly Free licensing on a Rights Managed agreement, I think.

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

As to limiting the run to 8000 or one edition, or one continent - it all depends on what you're getting paid. More use means more money.

Exactly, follow the money, they're not paying all that much for the cover.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Well, it seems logical to me that if they're going to advertise the book, they'd want to picture it in the ad. I think you need to calculate that use into your licensing fee.

Okay, so I am right that this should not be included in the pricing for just the cover then?

Originally posted by GeneralE:

As to using it again on a separate edition or run, that is something for which you should negotiate a separate payment -- it should not be automatically be included in your initial licensing.

The problem is, unless you have a really unique photo, you may not be in the strongest negotiating position.

Okay, rights in perpetuity just doesn't seem right to anyone here.

Yes, I have no idea what # on the list I am, but they're already into setting the cover design, and they go to press in January. If they have to restart on the cover design now, it could be problematic for them.

Any other insights?

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

10/22/2007 03:46:56 PM · #7

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

No, lots more than 50 ;)

I'm justy trying to make sure that I'm not getting screwed here.

The alamy terms state its as this, though:

Originally posted by alamy.com:

Non-exclusive

* The buyer pays a licence fee each time they use the image, but another buyer can also purchase and use the image under the same licence.
* The buyer must specify, each time: intended use, media, territory and duration.
* Pricing is based on intended use, media, duration and territory. The territorial pricing will be matched to the specific country.

Exclusive

This is available only where the option Rights protected? appears underneath the price calculator:

* The buyer pays a licence fee each time they use the image.
* The buyer obtains exclusive use of an image under the terms of the licence: these terms may affect the use, media, territory and/or duration in which the image can by used by other buyers.
* Rights protection can be an advantage for high-profile projects such as ad campaigns and promotions.
* Pricing for this type of licence varies depending on the terms requested. Customers of Alamy would typically pay between 20-30% more to guarantee an exclusive licence for their project.

Seems to me if they were buying stock, they'd have to pay more and it wouldn't include future editions and print runs.

kenskid

Nikon D700

10/22/2007 04:33:00 PM · #8

You are getting screwed....however, you can simply say "no"...and then give them your offer.....say $3000....they can say no thank you and you say..."use someone elses photo"...

It seems the ball is in your court!