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10/12/2007 12:33:10 AM · #1 |
Hey guys I need your advice/tips. I am going to shoot my first paid job Saturday morning. It's an indoor/outdoor event. All I have to do is roam around and shoot people, interior, candids, decorations, and people having fun. I will be shooting with a Canon 40D, canon 24-70mm f/2.8L, and 580EX flash.
What is the best camera setting for the indoor shots? Is it better to shoot in manual (ISO 200, 1/80, f/4, TTL on the 580ex) or is it better to shoot in AV mode (ISO 200, f/4, TTL on the 580ex)?
The shoot will be from 10am to 1pm so when I shoot outside it will be a 12 o'clock sunlight. Should I shoot with the flash on? If so, what's the best settings for that?
Any tips or advice for a beginner would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance and wish me luck!! I'm so excited! whoooo hooooo! |
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10/12/2007 12:37:48 AM · #2 |
I prefer to shoot manual everything (including flash). If you can, get that flash off the camera, even using a technique like this one:
//strobist.blogspot.com/2006/07/strobe-on-rope.html
I just did my first paying job yesterday (shot engagement photos for a wedding in March). I am loving getting paid to take pictures, who's the genius who came up with this idea? |
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10/12/2007 12:43:22 AM · #3 |
| sometimes y put the Av function isntead the manual, |
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10/12/2007 01:13:16 AM · #4 |
perhaps your inexperience is showing through, Bright noonsun always use fill flash piss easy these days since the camera does it for you. last thing you want is shadowy faces.
It seems that one comes on this site buys the latest gear and gee whizz I am a photographer lets all do weddings groups what ever. Personally I am sick of these threads on I have a wedding,ggroup sport tean to photograph how do I do it threads,. If you dont know or are unsure of how turn the job down. No one wants their important social event F*******d up |
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10/12/2007 01:30:31 AM · #5 |
Nick....... if someone wants to get into the business, they have to start somewhere.
The absolute best way to do it, IMO, is to get a job working for another company. Allow them to tutor you and teach you your craft rather than striking it out on your own. The second best ... is to get onto DPC and look at what other people are doing and ask questions, start with friends and family (people that won't mind if you screw up). Experiment. Shoot a lot. And learn along the way.
The worst way to do it? Just decide you can do it and go for it with no knowledge whatsoever as to what is expected.
At least they're trying....... :-)
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10/12/2007 01:37:39 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by kiwinick:
perhaps your inexperience is showing through, Bright noonsun always use fill flash piss easy these days since the camera does it for you. last thing you want is shadowy faces.
It seems that one comes on this site buys the latest gear and gee whizz I am a photographer lets all do weddings groups what ever. Personally I am sick of these threads on I have a wedding,ggroup sport tean to photograph how do I do it threads,. If you dont know or are unsure of how turn the job down. No one wants their important social event F*******d up |
Wow, Nick...goin' fer the jugular there ain't we? As I have been told many times... if you don't like these threads...don't click on the link. We probably won't see the end of these threads cause there are so many people who are not familiar with the cameras/digital/photography who come here for maybe a little insight into what others do by instinct. You were not wrong in what you said, but a little tact would go a lot further.
And Mike... Nick is right. Noon sun can be the harshest of all natural light and the shadows can be devastating. Fill flash is a must in these cases. Maybe you will get lucky and it will be a cloudy but bright day. Those I have come to love... no shadows to speak of, a softer light on the subjects and generally pleasing product.
Of all of the types of shoots to get for your first paying job, this is probably the best. Gives you a chance to experiment a little while doing what you are there for. As for the settings, there are a lot of dependings... and with being digital, I am not sure. Although I used to get paid for taking pictures and made a damn good living at it, since going digital I am like a lost puppy.(Just check out the pictures in my profile...haha) Can't think in digital so I won't try to tell you what settings to use.
Just do what you are familiar in doing, try a few things and if they work..continue. And bracket... most cameras have settings for 3 or 4 exposure bracket shots where you take the same picture in rapid succession but at different aperture settings.
And take plenty of extra batteries ... even if you have a power-pack, memory cards and so on. Be prepared is not only the boy scout motto... it is also the mantra for any photographer who has NOT been prepared once or twice in the past.
Make sure to take a s#*t-load of pictures. God I love digital for that reason alone...so many pictures without any processing in a dark room!!!
Good luck and have fun! If you are smiling you will have fun, and you will get better candids of people.
Mike M
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10/12/2007 01:40:51 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by AdrlnJunkie11:
What is the best camera setting for the indoor shots? Is it better to shoot in manual (ISO 200, 1/80, f/4, TTL on the 580ex) or is it better to shoot in AV mode (ISO 200, f/4, TTL on the 580ex)? |
Indoors, Av mode will almost certainly be the WRONG thing to do.
In Av mode, your camera tries to find a setting that will work with the AMBIENT light (i.e. the exposure it will pick is the same regardless of whether your flash is turned on or not).
So in Av mode, indoors, your camera will probably be picking something like 1/30 of a second or worse. And so your flash will go off and it'll briefly freeze your subject. But the ambient light will be sufficient to allow any movement (of you or the subject) to blur the image as well. (now, if they are out on the dance floor and this is what you want ... more power to you, just make sure what you are doing, you are doing on purpose)
Once your flash becomes the "primary source of light" (i.e. when you go indoors), it's time to switch to all manual.
I'm typically shooting receptions at about 1000 ISO with my shutter speed set to 1/125 and my aperture set anywhere from f/2.8 to f/3.5.
In manual mode, the camera will probably under expose the image if the flash doesn't go off. But that's okay. The "mixed lighting" you get indoors (flourescent plus flash, or tungstent plus flash) looks bad and is hard to white balance anyway! So let the ambient light go under exposed and let your flash do the lighting. At high ISOs and wide open apertures, you won't need a lot of light (or battery power) to light your subjects, so it works out pretty good.
Using the 580EX, I typically have the flash head angled upwards at about a 45 degree angle (to bounce off the ceiling and walls). And I pull the little white card out of the head and extend it forward. With the flash aiming upwards at a 45 degree angle, that white card should be at just the right angle to bounce "some" of the light back down towards the subject. So now you get some soft light hitting the people, with light bouncing around the room to fill in the shadows.
Originally posted by AdrlnJunkie11:
The shoot will be from 10am to 1pm so when I shoot outside it will be a 12 o'clock sunlight. Should I shoot with the flash on? If so, what's the best settings for that? |
Yes. Here you want the flash on ... but you'll need to put it into High Speed mode. Otherwise, the camera will slow the shutter speed down to sync speed and you'll likely over expose the image.
In broad daylight, the flash doesn't do a whole lot ... you've got maybe 12 feet of light before there's really no impact (flash or no flash). So keep that in mind. The closer your subject is, the better the flash will be able to light them.
Good luck on Saturday. And please do take the time to share your results.
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10/12/2007 10:37:09 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by kiwinick:
perhaps your inexperience is showing through, Bright noonsun always use fill flash piss easy these days since the camera does it for you. last thing you want is shadowy faces.
It seems that one comes on this site buys the latest gear and gee whizz I am a photographer lets all do weddings groups what ever. Personally I am sick of these threads on I have a wedding,ggroup sport tean to photograph how do I do it threads,. If you dont know or are unsure of how turn the job down. No one wants their important social event F*******d up |
yo nick, chill out. what was the purpose of ur post? if i'm to turn down every job how am i ever going to get started? not everybody on this site is an expert like you. |
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10/12/2007 10:41:56 AM · #9 |
| Thanks David, your wisdom will be with me Saturday! Oh, whats the best flash position for the outdoor shots? same as indoor, 45 degree with white card? |
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10/12/2007 11:06:58 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by kiwinick:
Personally I am sick of these threads on I have a wedding,ggroup sport tean to photograph how do I do it threads,. |
muckpond points at the "ignore thread" option.
many of us are here to learn, and for people who aren't able to work with a company this is a perfectly appropriate forum to ask for tips and advice.
i have built a successful business that relies a lot on photography based solely on what i've learned here.
the fact of the matter is (and don't take this the wrong way, AdrlnJunkie), that an event like this is a perfect place to learn. it's candids and random shots. try a setting, glance at the screen. if it sucks, delete it and try a different setting. even if you pump out 20 shots that you consider to be good to mediocre, they're going to be light years beyond what the "secretary's husband with a nice digital camera" (read: nikon coolpix) would do. the fact that you're talking about using an off-camera flash and bouncing light already puts you in about the 95th percentile.
you'll do fine.
oh, and shoot in RAW. hopefully that goes without saying, but that's my advice.
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10/12/2007 11:11:01 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by AdrlnJunkie11:
Thanks David, your wisdom will be with me Saturday! Oh, whats the best flash position for the outdoor shots? same as indoor, 45 degree with white card? |
Nah, point it straight at them. For two reasons: 1) There's nothing to bounce the flash off of (no walls or ceilings), and 2) you need all the flash power you can get when you're competing against the sun.
Further down the road you'll want to experiment with off-camera flash. That way you don't have the flash pointing straight at them from the camera. But you still get full power from the flash.
Good luck on Saturday!
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10/12/2007 11:21:37 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
the fact of the matter is (and don't take this the wrong way, AdrlnJunkie), that an event like this is a perfect place to learn. |
While its a perfect scenario from a learning standpoint its not fair to the client that you learn on their dime and potentially ruin their special moment, which is what I think is Nicks point.
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10/12/2007 11:29:15 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by Kaveran:
Originally posted by muckpond:
the fact of the matter is (and don't take this the wrong way, AdrlnJunkie), that an event like this is a perfect place to learn. |
While its a perfect scenario from a learning standpoint its not fair to the client that you learn on their dime and potentially ruin their special moment, which is what I think is Nicks point. |
my point is that i don't think he's going to ruin it. i'm confident that once he gets the hang of it, he'll be able to produce a nice set of images.
this is something that's hard to "practice" because you never know what the conditions are going to be like before you get there. and the best way to learn is through experience. whenever i've been in a situation like this (and it's been plenty of times), i go through the area and try out a number of settings and angles. once i get an idea of what works, i'm able to work much more efficiently.
to say that he's going to suck it because he's never done it before is disingenuous. EVERYONE started somewhere. the trick to having a successful business is being able to succeed no matter what situation you're thrown into. you can't learn that from a book, and you can't practice it on your own. you have to grow through experience.
i'd much rather see someone completely new do a job like this -- there's no set "shot list" and no formal posing needed. he's free to work on his technique throughout the event.
and, like i said, it's still going to be way above and beyond what they'd get if they just had someone do it for free.
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10/12/2007 12:15:20 PM · #14 |
You want a scenario which deserves the bashing, Ill give you one...
My first wedding. Booked it because I wanted to do weddings and get paid. Told them it was my first wedding. Read posts around here got destroyed by Prof Fate. I decided I would just learn and experiment in the weeks before and I would be fine. Now comes teh real bashing material. I wanted an assistant. Asked my roommate who knows nothign about photography if he was in. He said sure and borrowed his GF's XT and I gave him the 50mm 1.8. Told him about 2 days prior that he needed to know how to use full manual so he could shoot RAW. Spent about 1/2 hour going over some stuff. Once he understood what aperature, shutter speed and ISO were he felt good. We went to the wedding and did great. His photos were great, people loved us, no one had any idea we were brand new beginners.
Fast forward to last weekend. I have 6 weddings under my belt from the summer so I am feeling more confident and working on my workflow so I don't take so many useless images. (We took 1600 at the first wedding and PP was painstakingly slow) This wedding I wanted him to be able to use flash. Another 15 minute lesson about bounce and aperature and shutter speed and the differences between what they do with vs. without flash. Again we killed it, people loved us, photos were great.
Anyway, the point I want to make is that anyone can take any gig as long as they have the proper equip. The critical factor is what you do with your time between booking it and shooting it. If you just book it and say "wow Im a professional photog now" you are screwed and dumb. I took weeks practicing and reading and being comfortable with what I needed to do. I would go to local shows and shoot photos as practice because concerts are low light w/ moving subjects and changing lights. Perfect practice grounds. I worked on what I needed to know for PP etc... I was prepared and I knew what I needed out of an assistant so it worked. Now my assistant is loving the weddings, he reads photo stuff and is getting knowledgable. He really likes positioning people and working w/ group compositions and I really like the technical aspect so its a perfect match.
My advice is book the gigs, be upfront about your experience, price yourself properly (no $4K weddings yet) and most importantly learn what you need to know so you don't look like a beginner.
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10/12/2007 12:51:26 PM · #15 |
Thanks everyone for the advice. one reason i took this job was because it's low pay. sounds weird eh? it's $140 for a 3.5 hour shoot. no photoshoping needed, just shoot and burn images on cd.
the way i see it is if i screw up this job i wont feel so bad about charging for it. it'll be a way for me to learn from my mistakes. it's kinda like my kickboxing training. i trained for one year in the gym before my first fight. i lost that first fight but in that 6 minute fight i learned more than i learned in one year of class training. you'll be surprised at how much you learn when ur getting beat up! haha. |
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10/12/2007 04:08:59 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
My advice is book the gigs, be upfront about your experience, price yourself properly (no $4K weddings yet) and most importantly learn what you need to know so you don't look like a beginner. |
This is very good advice. Don't sell yourself as the best and charge 4k for a wedding when you have no experience. The wedding I am doing in March I will be doing for less then I would even charge someone now, but that's because I don't want to charge a ton when I am still learning the in's and outs of weddings.
Oh, and ignore people on this site that say you're not good enough yet. If the person who hired you has seen your pictures and likes them enough to pay you to take some more, then that should be good enough. The people on this site are not the majority of picture viewers; I have had photo's that no one likes on here, but all my co-workers and friends love. Who's going to be looking at these photos? Professional photographers or normal people (:P). Not to say that you shouldn't try to take the best photos you can, but just don't let anyone tell you that you shouldn't be doing this for money yet. |
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10/12/2007 04:29:11 PM · #17 |
All the weddings this year were under $700. One was for $300 and 2 cases of beer.
Got to start somewhere. Also, even though youre not making much $$ don't skimp on the shots. Why did I give a complete all day package when all they wanted was the ceremony and formals? Because I needed a portfolio for future use. It also blows away expectations and gets great testimonials/word of mouth.
Im glad someone liked the advice of book em now and learn what you need to learn. I did that because I decided I needed to just make a move or I would never do it, there is always something more you can learn. At some point you just need to go for it.
Just make sure you have the gear and backups, that is something I never messed with. If the wedding was going to be ruined, it was going to be ruined by me not my equipment. |
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10/12/2007 04:37:10 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
All the weddings this year were under $700. One was for $300 and 2 cases of beer.
Got to start somewhere. Also, even though youre not making much $$ don't skimp on the shots. Why did I give a complete all day package when all they wanted was the ceremony and formals? Because I needed a portfolio for future use. It also blows away expectations and gets great testimonials/word of mouth.
Im glad someone liked the advice of book em now and learn what you need to learn. I did that because I decided I needed to just make a move or I would never do it, there is always something more you can learn. At some point you just need to go for it.
Just make sure you have the gear and backups, that is something I never messed with. If the wedding was going to be ruined, it was going to be ruined by me not my equipment. |
Great advice... I think what is most important to understand is that those of us who are getting are feet wet are among some really talented people that started someone too once.... we all start somewhere. I went to college and learned developing and processing - not photoshop or digital art. I am here at DPChallenge to learn from the greats and to get tips from you guys. Its always good to hear that sometimes its the jump - the attempt - the confidence.
Someone told me last year with my business, "You know Sarah... its normal to have doubts. Its normal to worry and hope and get nervous. However, there are two types of business people; theose who do and those who think about doing. You have to take risks and hope.... not just hope. Take the risk!!"
Good luck this weekend, we will both be out and about. :)
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10/12/2007 04:37:45 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
All the weddings this year were under $700. One was for $300 and 2 cases of beer.
Got to start somewhere. Also, even though youre not making much $$ don't skimp on the shots. Why did I give a complete all day package when all they wanted was the ceremony and formals? Because I needed a portfolio for future use. It also blows away expectations and gets great testimonials/word of mouth.
Im glad someone liked the advice of book em now and learn what you need to learn. I did that because I decided I needed to just make a move or I would never do it, there is always something more you can learn. At some point you just need to go for it.
Just make sure you have the gear and backups, that is something I never messed with. If the wedding was going to be ruined, it was going to be ruined by me not my equipment. |
When push comes to shove, it is how you, the photog composes the shots. It is all about getting the eye for a good shot. You seem to have it, as does your 'dumb' assistant...wonder how long before assistant joins DPC? Seeing a shot is what photography is all about, no matter what the subject. We all have to learn and hopefully the experiences help us improve. Good on yer for doing it and getting it right, more by luck than judgement. But each wedding you do, you get better and more like a 'Pro'. |
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10/12/2007 05:35:41 PM · #20 |
What about the social events/weddings/ photos that were taken a hundred and fifty years ago. They didn't have any equipment compared to what we have now. and those photos by and large look great for the time. They worked with what they had and were successful.
I have only done 2 social events, both weddings, one for my brother in law. This was an excellent one as he knew I wouldn't stuff it up completely but also that I am an amateur. He trusted me and was very happy with the result. I had a fuji S95010 at that stage, so no swapping lenses. The second shoot I did with that same camera, was because my sister (who does weddings all the time) due to family circumstances wasn't able to fulfill her obligation, arranged for me to do it. The family once again was really happy with the photos. One was even reprinted in the major state paper at A4 size on their weddings page. Both of these wedding shoots weren't professional quality. They were just good straight forward photos with a few really nice compositions. I now have a wedding coming up that is my first 'real' paying job that I got all by myself.
For any shoot whether it be a social event or a wedding, just be as organised as you can a feel confident. Take aboard all the suggestions that you can. I'm sure you will do fine.
Message edited by author 2007-10-12 17:37:10. |
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10/12/2007 05:40:02 PM · #21 |
| Nothing quite like getting thrown in the mix to learn, good luck, you will do fine and you will learn a ton! |
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10/12/2007 06:26:41 PM · #22 |
With my assistant, it wasn't really luck that made it. I kept it simple, I showed him the relationship between ISO, aperture, and shutter speed and that was about it. I could have shown him tons of stuff and overwhelmed him. My goal was to get sharp properly exposed images from him and I did. Each time we do an event I give him a little more info. Now hes getting into it and looking at the 5D which I don't know if I can handle him shooting with that while I have the XT. Plan is to book 5 for next year, get them under deposit and use that for a new body. One advantage we have over a lot of beginners is gear. With the rental company started, i shoot with that so it helps. Last wedding we had 2 XTs, 2 580 EX IIs, 35 1.4L, 24-70 2.8L, 85 1.8, 10-22. Not the usual rig a $600 wedding photog brings. NOt to brag, just pointing out that going prepared with gear does help.
Here is a shot from my assistant from our first wedding. I did the editing he got the exposure.
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=599313
Message edited by author 2007-10-12 18:29:51. |
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10/12/2007 07:01:44 PM · #23 |
Sorry its been a bad hair week down here. my point was if you havnt shot a wedding prior and have any reservations back off and follow the pro around. I have been doing weddings since the 1960,s and seen it all
One "competitor" who started up against me Used a Practica no meter and preset lenses which he forgot toclose down 100iso film for a winter wedding it P*****d down the films shot all at F5.6 the widest apature were all 3 stops under exposed out of focus and with camera shake. The Bride blamed me for allowing her to be talked into it by him, I think he went back to the intamatic 126 cartridge after this foray into pro photography
any way I really wish you well and I am sure you are getting the best infoi from the folks here |
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10/14/2007 11:41:26 PM · #24 |
Hey guys. well i did my shoot yesterday. overall i think it came out pretty good. David, ur advice really helped! For most of the indoor shots i was in manual mode, iso 1600, 1/100, f/2.8 - 4.0, flash at 45 degree with stofen diffuser. and the outside in AV mode, iso 100, f/4.0 - 11, flash pointed directly in front. overall i think most of the exposures came out well. i just have to work on my composition. i think i fill the frame too much. i need to back off a little. and i have to learn to be quicker shooting kids...those suckers move fast! in three hrs i took about 500 pics. lots were from the 6.5fps burst mode of the water balloons tossing, hula hoop, candy throws, n some other stuff.
here's a question for u guys: when you go on a shoot, what percentage of your pics are ones u can use. say u shoot 1000 pics at an event, how many are keepers?
i put some of the pics on flickr. the originals look better. flickr compresses the pics so they look grainy. CONSTRUCTIVE criticism welcome. dont just tell me i suck. tell me WHY i suck!
//www.flickr.com/photos/adrlnjunkie/sets/72157602423623668/show/ |
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10/14/2007 11:53:11 PM · #25 |
Adrin J's link
Fixed the link for ya.
Good pix. Looks like you had a good time too. The two shots of the golf course are a little oversaturated, but the rest are looking good. You captured a lot of the right moments and expressions, and I think that the people will be pleased with the results.
Message edited by author 2007-10-14 23:58:14.
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