Artistic peer pressure - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM

10/05/2007 10:07:31 AM · #1

I am merely curious.
Do any of you feel pressured to meet the artistic expectations that have developed around your work? Does it ever keep you from shooting something that might have pleased you? Are you shooting everything just as before, but limiting what you show here?

I have noticed several examples of the following sort:
Someone joins. I enjoy the wide range of photos that they upload. One day they upload something that attracts praise from the art critics. More of a suit follow. Soon, the once eclectic photographer seems to upload only photos that follow his or her more artistic bent. Not surprisingly, he or she rarely uploads (compared to previous volume). (Please donâ��t ask for examples).

Do you ever find yourself about to take or upload a photo that you personally enjoyâ�¦ only to stay your hand for fear of your reputation or the reaction of those whose opinion you value? Are you doing us all a favor by reducing the volume of mundane photography or are you compromising simple pleasures to please the critics, or have your tastes truly evolved to a point that only â��higher artâ�� will do?

I am not intending a discussion of what is art, or what is art criticism. And I enjoy both a great deal. I am only trying to determine if my perception is correct, or if I am just reading myself into things (I have a Whitman complex).

Iâ��m all ears (more or less).

idnic

Canon EOS-60D

10/05/2007 10:19:03 AM · #2

I do feel pressure to continually improve and not shoot (or share) crap.... but I don't edit WHAT I shoot, or when or where. I shoot what I like, I just try to do it as well as I can each time.

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

10/05/2007 10:24:09 AM · #3

For challenges I try and enter what will score well. That's sort of the point.

Outside of that, I upload what I like to shoot and feel is worth sharing.

pawdrix

Nikon D700

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

10/05/2007 10:24:47 AM · #4

Originally posted by Bernard_Marx:

One day they upload something that attracts praise from the art critics.

Iâ��m all ears (more or less).

I'm not sure what "art critics" you are speaking of (here at DPC or out in the world?) but I'd say this site is more commercially driven than it is artistically. Although there are some who have launched a few side Challenges that lean towards the more artistic side of photography over the last few months.

Personally, I no longer shoot for DPC (DPC critics/voters)because the people that like and buy my work have far different tastes than those on the site and they enjoy what I do, as I do it. If you can make that work, go for it but overall photographers do usually want/need to connect with the viewer on some level. If DPC was the place where I got my most views and critiques I would probably wind up shooting to the taste of it's population.

I used to pass up shots all the time because I thought that DPCers wouldn't like them and it took me a year to get out of that zone. Not very smart of me but that's where my head was at. When I found another audience it became easier to spread out and do more of what I wanted to do.

That's just my personal take on your question but I assume other people are driven in other directions. I rarely enter Challenges these days and I rarely break a 6 when I do. As for my portfolio, I put up whatever I want.

Message edited by author 2007-10-05 10:34:26.

Nusbaum

Fujifilm X-T1

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

10/05/2007 10:28:13 AM · #5

Originally posted by Bernard_Marx:

Do any of you feel pressured to meet the artistic expectations that have developed around your work?

Yes, but for me the affect has simply been that I post less work. Two of my very first portrait session produced results that I feel were pretty good and that got a fair amount of attention. In both cases I knew nothing about portraiture and simply shot what appealed to me. In both cases I planned for early morning light and was lucky enough to have a slightly overcast sky. I've learned more since then, but I also over think as I try to apply different concepts. I realize it's going to take time a practice to push through to the next level, but posting new images during this learning process can be painful.

Message edited by author 2007-10-05 10:30:09.

10/05/2007 10:31:44 AM · #6

I do feel pressure to continually improve and not shoot (or share) crap
- Sure, certainly. But do you ever feel pressure to avoid shooting or sharing what you personally might enjoy but which you believe is likely to be considered crap by DPCers whose opinion you truly value?

10/05/2007 10:32:28 AM · #7

I upload what I like to shoot and feel is worth sharing.

I am struggling to feel that way.

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

10/05/2007 10:35:13 AM · #8

That's just my personal take on your question
Steve, your answer is exactly the sort I was looking for.

art critics
I can't (and would not like to try to) define that. And no names.

pix-al

Canon EOS-5D

10/05/2007 10:35:48 AM · #9

Originally posted by routerguy666:

For challenges I try and enter what will score well. That's sort of the point.

Outside of that, I upload what I like to shoot and feel is worth sharing.

Completely agree with that.

For challenges, I go and think of a concept that will hopefully suit DPC tastes then go and set it up to shoot. Saying that, my highest scoring image was actually a spur of the moment shot while out with the family on the beach...!
Other than challenges, I shoot to my tatses.

bassbone

Nikon Z8

Nikon NIKKOR Z 24-120 f/4 S

10/05/2007 10:36:27 AM · #10

Originally posted by Bernard_Marx:

I shoot whatever I want - my kids making silly faces, pictures of birthday cakes, flowers, bugs, landscapes, etc. - but I tend to upload those images on the site that seem to fit the site. Uploading and sharing is as much about the audience as what you shoot. I share the stuff that is not DPC in other ways and at other places...

posthumous

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

10/05/2007 10:37:24 AM · #11

10/05/2007 10:46:07 AM · #12

Do you honestly think that these "art critics" create more self-censorship than the challenges do? Do you really think more people refrain from shooting because "art critics" won't like it than because it won't score well? Surely, these "art critics" are providing another kind of acceptance, expanding the possibilities of what can be uploaded and appreciated here. The old forms of acceptance are still alive and well.

Excellent points!

I wasn't even thinking about challenge entries actually.

Here is a frame of reference for my initial post:
The blunt point of my questions is this:
I would like some of my photos to be taken seriously as art. I welcome and enjoy artistic criticism of those shots.

On the other hand, I also enjoy taking not-so-artistic photos of insects and flora and portraits of my wife. What might be considered tripe.

So lately I have found myself struggling not to self-censor.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

10/05/2007 10:49:48 AM · #13

Surely, these "art critics" are providing another kind of acceptance, expanding the possibilities of what can be uploaded and appreciated here.

Amen to that. I hope no one reading my posts thinks I am the least bit hostile to this other kind of acceptance. I am only wondering about the self-censorship you mentioned.

if you only like commercial shots that score well, I can see how the "art critics" might annoy you.
I am trying not to tend too strongly in either direction - I like some high scoring commercial shots and some low scoring alternatives.

Message edited by author 2007-10-05 10:55:05.

CNovack

Canon EOS-600D/T3i Rebel

10/05/2007 10:54:27 AM · #14

I am my own worse critic...I shoot what I want and what I like BUT if a shot is not up to MY standards I will either:

A) Try a different approach
B) Try again after research or help on the subject -Though Lovers Be Lost Set-up is an example of that.
c) Abandon the idea all together.

For the Candy II challenge I shot an idea that has been in my head for awhile. I took over 200 photos and was STILL not totally satisfied - I was very frustrated actually. Upon the urging of my family who saw how hard I worked both the Set-up of the shot and the PP I entered just to get feedback. I did ask for lighting help and I have gotten two wonderful responses giving that help. Now I just have to find time to tackle it again:-)

If there is any pressure to perform it is the pressure I place on myself for I KNOW I can do better.

pawdrix

Nikon D700

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

10/05/2007 10:54:48 AM · #15

Thinking about it now I seem to be more driven by things that aren't popular on the site.

This image by Zeuszen inspired me to to edit this image which as you can see has garnered very little attention and I'd bet you could easily fill in the blanks as far as the critical commentary (or low score) it would receive if placed in Challenge.

As for entering things in a Challenge that do well....that's not the only reason I see to enter a Challenge. I certainly don't enter to win but I enter to gage how "Middle America" sees my work. I figure that I'm connecting with them IF I break a 6 but I make too many strange choices for the general population, to ever hit a 7. DPC is the best place I can find for that type of feedback since I do have some commercial ambition even though my entries usually have no commercial potential. LOL.

Self editing is fine depending on who you are trying to connect with. If you aren't trying to connect with a mass audience, do whatever you like. It's rare but some photographers can achieve both.

Message edited by author 2007-10-05 11:10:28.

10/05/2007 10:59:16 AM · #16

As for entering things in a Challenge that do well....that's not the only reason I see to enter a Challenge. I certainly don't enter to win but I enter to gage how "Middle America" sees my work. I figure that I'm connecting IF I break a 6 but I make too many strange choices for the general population, to ever hit a 7.

Excellent points. Personally, I don't mind the scores at all (one way or another). And sometimes connecting with just a few is fine with me.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

10/05/2007 11:23:56 AM · #17

I feel responsible for making myself clear.

Do you honestly think that these "art critics" create more self-censorship than the challenges do?
No.
Do you really think more people refrain from shooting because "art critics" won't like it than because it won't score well?
No.

Both are quantity questions. Both are ratio question. I think far more people are self-censoring based on the opinions of the majority and what sells here at DPC. I framed my question as I did because it hits closer to home. I am not the least bit worried about posting photos that sell well to the majority. If I am tempted to self-censorship it is in the other direction. But I am trying to avoid being narrow either way.

Message edited by author 2007-10-05 11:27:24.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

10/05/2007 11:49:14 AM · #18

Artistically, I do what I want. If people like it, cool. If they don't, well...that sucks for them.

Yo_Spiff

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

10/05/2007 12:30:07 PM · #19

I try to do what pleases me, but I find that a critical eye has improved my judgement for what makes an interesting photo. Often, I won't know the keepers until I get them home and look at them on a larger screen. I try to upload stuff here that has more quality to it, as opposed to casual snapshots. If it's just something cool, but not well composed, or has major flaws, I may put it on my Flickr page, but not here.

I belong to a handful of Flickr groups and I have found their review to be a reasonable indicator of quality. If I get a handful of comments like "outstanding picture!", then it is probably good enough to do mid-pack over here. Due to the nature of this site, the standards here tend to be very high.

Not everyone appreciates these things. I have a bunch of my photos decorating my cubicle at work, but a coworker's snapshot of a 7 foot snake he killed gets more comments. Even my daughter asks:" Dad, why did you take a picture of a rusty bridge?!". It pleases me, though, to be able to look at them.

As I spend more time here and build up a portfolio, I will surely be removing some things I am not as satisfied with.

Message edited by author 2007-10-05 12:31:15.

Nusbaum

Fujifilm X-T1

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

10/05/2007 12:37:34 PM · #20

Do any of you feel pressured to meet the artistic expectations that have developed around your work? Yes

Does it ever keep you from shooting something that might have pleased you? No

Are you shooting everything just as before, but limiting what you show here? Definitely Yes

I've read the initial post a number of times, and replied once already, because this question struck a cord with me. I really enjoy what I would call portraiture and have no problem shooting a conservative high school senior in soft natural light in the morning and then shooting a model with a very sexy fashion look later that same day. But I do struggle with sharing this work because it seems that viewers, in general, will not attempt to put an image in any kind of context and tend to label the photographer based on the single image that they happen to be viewing. This is even more challenging on dpc because, outside the context of a challenge, there really is no context for the images. It's as though all photographs are now judged on one universal scale and they are either right or they are wrong. For example... I may chose, in one image, to obscure part of the subject's face in shadow because their personality stuck me as somebody of deep thought and character who tends to observe the world from the shadows. I post and then get comments that there is too much shadow (relative to what I don't know).

Another example... I shoot with models in order to learn and improve my portraiture and because I like fashion photography and would love to at least experiment with that type of light and content. I produced some images last week that I rather like, given the situation, but I haven't posted for fear of being labeled as yet another guy chasing girls with his camera or.

Sorry for the long post... as I said this struck a cord with me

jaysonmc

Nikon D200

Nikon MF 105mm f/2.5 AIS

10/05/2007 12:46:27 PM · #21

For me no. I just shoot and upload. Sometimes my shot might look cliche maybe even borderline artistic and other times downright ugly. I personally don't care, I just hit upload and off I go.

Do I think this place helps you improve as a photographer, sure, and a such image quality may improve over time. But for me, it is really about giving the opportunity to take pictures. I am not here to please the masses, but rather to learn.

obsidian

Nikon D80

Tamron AF 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di II for Nikon

10/05/2007 12:54:44 PM · #22

Do any of you feel pressured to meet the artistic expectations that have developed around your work? Used to...

Does it ever keep you from shooting something that might have pleased you? No way

Are you shooting everything just as before, but limiting what you show here? Kind of...

Having joined a non-virtual camera club recently I have posted very little here but was beginning to feel that what I saw and liked didn't really fit in with the DPC norm. However, I did post some material after the London GTG which reflected my eclectic tastes and received some comments, but no more than I would expect.

With the physical camera club I am now focusing on prints and not digital image projection, and this has caused me to stop and think a lot about what I am photographing and the way I photograph: something about handling a large print on a physical media. I submitted two prints for an internal club contest this week, based on images already presented here that scored on the one hand just under 6 and on the other attracted a personal favourite. I am intrigued to see how they do as prints as, to my eyes, they feel a lot different.

I have to say the club membership is very different to that here (and it is not just the age with the average age in excess of 55!). There are a substantial number of non-digital folk there and they have a very different "take" on what constitutes a good "picture". Furthermore, after a talk by a visiting speaker this Wednesday, who pushed the value of presenting "challenging" images rather than those that score the perfect "20", I am beginning to wonder how one of my pictures will be received.

But therein lies the fun. This is a new dimension for me to explore and, with a different peer group, I figure that the average "taste" will be different to that on DPC. For subject competitions there is the added fun of my pictures being reviewed by a human judge, and not subject to the notion of popular vote. This adds a whole new dimension.

So, my answers above stand but I wonder how I will feel in three weeks after the first of the "judged" competitions and after my pictures have been "judged" by my fellow club members... Intriguing for sure.

Message edited by author 2007-10-05 12:56:17.