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 09/13/2007 01:57:56 PM · #26
Judy, what church was your daughter married in? It looks like the church I attended growing up (in Cincy).

I've shot one wedding (for peanuts) and I would say my photos are on par with what this pro shot, especially considering he had much more light and nicer venues overall. I don't know if that speaks well for me or poorly for him. You didn't give us much info like years of experience or cost by which to gauge the caliber of his work, but I definitely think he went overboard with the tilted shots. Tilting the scene has its place in framing certain shots, but IMHO many of his tilted ones should not be.
 09/13/2007 02:04:45 PM · #27
Originally posted by Creature:
Judy, what church was your daughter married in? It looks like the church I attended growing up (in Cincy).

I've shot one wedding (for peanuts) and I would say my photos are on par with what this pro shot, especially considering he had much more light and nicer venues overall. I don't know if that speaks well for me or poorly for him. You didn't give us much info like years of experience or cost by which to gauge the caliber of his work, but I definitely think he went overboard with the tilted shots. Tilting the scene has its place in framing certain shots, but IMHO many of his tilted ones should not be.


This is the Presbyterian Church in Hamilton. We did an extensive interview with him and viewed no less than 12 CDs of previously shot weddings...the full CD's, not just promo shots. There were probably 50 in the stack we looked at, and more on the shelves. He is very experienced. We ended up paying about $1,400 for two shooters and the CD of full high res files...no prints. He was certainly not the cheapest, far from the most expensive. We were on a limited budget, which is why we didn't pay for prints at this point. I can take care of that myself later. I thought his price was reasonable, because it IS a LOT of work to shoot a wedding. This I know. I was specifically looking for someone willing to provide the high res files on CD.
 09/13/2007 02:16:14 PM · #28
Originally posted by jpochard:
This is the Presbyterian Church in Hamilton. We did an extensive interview with him and viewed no less than 12 CDs of previously shot weddings...the full CD's, not just promo shots. There were probably 50 in the stack we looked at, and more on the shelves. He is very experienced. We ended up paying about $1,400 for two shooters and the CD of full high res files...no prints. He was certainly not the cheapest, far from the most expensive. We were on a limited budget, which is why we didn't pay for prints at this point. I can take care of that myself later. I thought his price was reasonable, because it IS a LOT of work to shoot a wedding. This I know. I was specifically looking for someone willing to provide the high res files on CD.

Well, it certainly sounds like you did your homework in selecting him, and that maybe he just wasn't at the top of his game that day. Sorry you didn't get what you expected.

BTW, I attended the Presbyterian Church on Beechmont Ave. in Anderson Twsp. -- the church layout seems the same, the colors were different then but it has been 15 years since I've been to that church so I thought it could be the same place with a new paint job. :-)
 09/13/2007 02:39:01 PM · #29
It's not even a church any of us attend! My daughter's church is new and meets at a high school, my church is also newer and has a multi-purpose room type sanctuary which is pretty ugly for weddings. Most other churches won't let you use them with your own pastor...which bride and groom had and wanted to use him. This church was a good location, fairly nice interior, and allowed us to simply rent the usage for the afternoon wedding. It's an historical downtown church, which made it kind of nice. Too bad it was so blasted hot because it's right across from the historic court house, which would have been nice pics. It was just WAY too hot to do that, however, and I agreed.
 09/13/2007 02:45:11 PM · #30
Really at the end of the day you got some memories of the event, so that's what counts.

09/13/2007 02:51:49 PM · #31
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Really at the end of the day you got some memories of the event, so that's what counts.


Yes! And it's just so nice to yak here for awhile about the photos. I put WAY more emphasis on the photos than even the bride and groom do, and you guys share the passion for the photography end of things. I appreciate the discussion so I can vent a bit and not bore anyone here at home. :) (hopefully not boring you all too much LOL)
 09/13/2007 02:57:43 PM · #32
I think everyone is being way too harsh. Not one of these photos is a final edit ready for print. they are essentially straight from camera. It may have taken him a couple weeks to get them to you, but thats because he is a working pro and you are not the only client he has. He probably shot a wedding the week before and after yours so he is busy. I personally tell couples 2 weeks turnaround, thats because I don't have a solid booked schedule. I also take about 5 days before I even look at a single image. Trying to edit the day after a wedding is tough, at least for me. I need to get away from teh images for a few days.

The compositions are OK and haven't been cropped, the color is fine and the sharpness intact. I think out of anyone, people here would know that a lot is done in PP to make the images pop.

You saw his portfolio, why assume he messed up your wedding before you see final images. There is 2 pages of negative publicity posted here and a final product hasn't been delivered. I dont think that is very fair to the photog, do you?

This just prompted a challenge idea... We could call it "Straight to Edit" it would be a 2 week challenge, free study so anything goes. Week 1 would be to enter the straight from camera image. We all vote, scores are tallied. Week 2 is voting on the edited photo of week 1. Must be the same capture. We vote and average the two scores to find a winner. Lets see who can turn their 4.5 vote in week 1 into a 6+ in week 2.
 09/13/2007 02:58:14 PM · #33
Originally posted by jpochard:
I paid a professional for services and I feel well within my rights to voice dissatisfaction or satisfaction with the results.


You're absolutely entitled. Maybe you should express your concerns to the photog in question in a private setting and not in a public forum where some comments could be construed as slanderous to his name and business, which would leave the door open for civil litigation and possibly some sort of restitution on your part and no photos.
 09/13/2007 03:20:02 PM · #34
OK, what you are explaining here is a problem I have to deal with quite often, that of `TOO MANY PHOTOGRAPHS`. On a normal day we can easily shoot in excess of 1000 shots (between me & assistant). Now during this time of the year we are very very busy, and I certainly dont have time to go through and Photoshop every single shot I take. However, this year the way I have got around that is to initially scan through the photos, find what are the best of the best and photoshop them up quickly, no more than say 15 to 20 shots. I then email these to the client before putting the non-editted ones (we do take out any OOF shots or generally crappy ones) online. We also make them aware at booking time and show them the online galleries so they can see the difference between the unedited shots and then show them the albums which look super coolio, that way they dont get any unexpected surprises and think "those shots look nothing like the albums they showed us."

Again, even going through the uneditted shots, the really `standout` ones get lost, as once you get through the first 500 or so I guess it can get pretty boring, even if its your own wedding.

Also, remember, the low res versions you are looking at are probably nothing compared to the fullsize ones.

ANOTHER thing to remember is, you are not only looking at them as a parent, you are looking at them as a photographer. Try to seperate the two. I know couples who have come back to me and said they love shot number xxx, which I probably look at and think "oh my god, the DOF is far too deep on that one".. Again, I have to try and look at it through their eyes sometimes.

I have had a quick look through the shots, and to be honest there are some quite nice ones in there (trying to look at it as a casual observer and not a photographer). If I was to comment from a photographers point of view my biggest no-no is too much direct flash, I see plenty of white walls there he could of bounced it off.

Still. you paid him and you are entitled to your own opinion. What has your daughter said about them?

EDIT - On a subnote, since I have started using Lightroom, I can put a far better set of images up during the `uneditted` stage (if that makes sense) as things like crop/rotate and general adjustment are far quicker to implement. Adobe hit another homerun with that one.

Message edited by author 2007-09-13 15:23:23.
 09/13/2007 03:25:24 PM · #35
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
I think everyone is being way too harsh. Not one of these photos is a final edit ready for print. they are essentially straight from camera. It may have taken him a couple weeks to get them to you, but thats because he is a working pro and you are not the only client he has. He probably shot a wedding the week before and after yours so he is busy. I personally tell couples 2 weeks turnaround, thats because I don't have a solid booked schedule. I also take about 5 days before I even look at a single image. Trying to edit the day after a wedding is tough, at least for me. I need to get away from teh images for a few days.

The compositions are OK and haven't been cropped, the color is fine and the sharpness intact. I think out of anyone, people here would know that a lot is done in PP to make the images pop.

You saw his portfolio, why assume he messed up your wedding before you see final images. There is 2 pages of negative publicity posted here and a final product hasn't been delivered. I dont think that is very fair to the photog, do you?


It took more than an month for him to post the online gallery. I have no problem with that, but it seems a longer time than would be needed if no editing at all was done. Also it is evident that many of these HAVE been cropped. Especially in the posed sanctuary shots, the further out shots have been cropped to create the closer crops. Exact stances, expressions etc. are what lead me to believe that.

He has the photos online for folks to see, so I see no problem in discussing them. I still like the photographer, but hoped for better in the results from this wedding. As for 2 pages of negative publicity, not all of it is negative. This is a photography forum, so I thought it a good place to discuss my opinion of the results. It was also for me to see if I was being TOO picky, or if others perhaps saw some of the same things. It appears to be a mix of both.

Message edited by author 2007-09-13 15:27:12.
 09/13/2007 03:26:37 PM · #36
I agree, I wouldnt call this negative publicity at all, in fact its one of the better discussions I have read on DPC this week.
 09/13/2007 03:29:18 PM · #37
I will also say that the more I look through them, the more I find that I like. Still no WOW ones, but certainly better than a LOT of wedding photographs I have seen. I'm a tough judge.
 09/13/2007 04:43:53 PM · #38
You are still judging an unfinished product. A month isn't that long to get stuff up, it isn't the fastest either. I have a wedding Im shooting in Boston next spring. They requested 2000 shots!! Its a big wedding, but still that is a lot, but hey they are the customer and I aim to please. They also are giving me 6 months to turn it around. Thats way longer than I need, but hey its their wedding.

It is a bit of negative publicity. You linked his site and spoke of how disapointed you were, even saying that you suggested to the bride a reshoot done by you. I know we are all photogs, but its still a bit of negative publicity.

I don't post like he did until the couple has their final product for this exact reason. I like to hand the couple the final edited ready to print files and then post the rest. This way the "wow" shots are seperated and they don't need to thumb through 500 images to find it. All this stuff starts to look the same at about 200 images. Even in my contract I tell them that I am going to pick the best ones and edit and if they have additional shots they would liked touched up after I can do it. I have never had anyone ask for more, they always like what I chose.
 09/13/2007 07:06:41 PM · #39
fwiw, i really have a problem with this thread...

yeah, this is a photography site and we're all photographers in some form or fashion, but we're all here of our own accord, entering challenges and putting work in our portfolios so that it can be judged, critiqued, and commented on.

however, there's a big difference between opening up a discussion and opening up a rant where you're basically calling a guy out in a public forum where he doesn't have a chance to defend himself. this guy has been thrown into this mix without being asked. maybe he cares, maybe he doesn't. maybe if he gets wind of this, he'll learn something.

then again, if he had a good enough portfolio and clientbase to be hired in the first place, chances are he can survive the negative publicity churned up by having a disappointed mother spouting off.

i know $1400 is nothing to sneeze at, but all the same, that's on the low end for people that can afford and appreciate good photography. we're not talking about a charity wedding where there's no other alternative. seriously, for $1400, i wouldn't expect a whole lot of WOW. i'd expect a basic good job with a nice selection of in-focus, properly exposed images.

it's really, REALLY easy to critique somebody else's work, workflow, business habits, styles, etc. well, it's one thing when you're coming at it with experience; it's another thing altogether different if you've never done the work before, especially never done it professionally.

i know one thing i've learned from this thread: next bride or mob i talk to, i'll ask, "are you a photographer? oh, you are...ok, that's GREAT! i know you'll have no problem understanding why i must charge you 5 times my normal rate..."

09/13/2007 07:39:09 PM · #40
The thing is, there is every chance that this guy WILL see this thread, depending on whether he checks his web logs much he will see a lot of traffic being redirected from this site, even the link in this thread should register.I know from when I had my website I could see where referral links came from, hell, I only had to click on them in the log-browser to actually take me to the referring page. So he may well of already read this thread and the OPs comments.. If not, he probably will.. Wonder what he thinks when he read it?

Just thought you should know.

Message edited by author 2007-09-13 19:48:51.
 09/13/2007 08:22:52 PM · #41
Originally posted by Simms:
Wonder what he thinks when he read it?


Customer's always right? Unless wedding photographer's get a pass on common sense.
 09/13/2007 10:43:43 PM · #42
Originally posted by Skip:
fwiw, i really have a problem with this thread...

yeah, this is a photography site and we're all photographers in some form or fashion, but we're all here of our own accord, entering challenges and putting work in our portfolios so that it can be judged, critiqued, and commented on.

however, there's a big difference between opening up a discussion and opening up a rant where you're basically calling a guy out in a public forum where he doesn't have a chance to defend himself. this guy has been thrown into this mix without being asked. maybe he cares, maybe he doesn't. maybe if he gets wind of this, he'll learn something.

then again, if he had a good enough portfolio and clientbase to be hired in the first place, chances are he can survive the negative publicity churned up by having a disappointed mother spouting off.

i know $1400 is nothing to sneeze at, but all the same, that's on the low end for people that can afford and appreciate good photography. we're not talking about a charity wedding where there's no other alternative. seriously, for $1400, i wouldn't expect a whole lot of WOW. i'd expect a basic good job with a nice selection of in-focus, properly exposed images.

it's really, REALLY easy to critique somebody else's work, workflow, business habits, styles, etc. well, it's one thing when you're coming at it with experience; it's another thing altogether different if you've never done the work before, especially never done it professionally.

i know one thing i've learned from this thread: next bride or mob i talk to, i'll ask, "are you a photographer? oh, you are...ok, that's GREAT! i know you'll have no problem understanding why i must charge you 5 times my normal rate..."

$1400 is nothing to sneeze at? I wish I had gotten that much for the wedding i just shot! i made only $500(which i guess isnt thattt badd)

I personally don't see a problem with the OP's opinions on the photos. But I would think it's only fair to let the photog know about this discussion, you all have no problem slamming the photog behidn his back, but I guarantee that if he was a member on here and in this thread. You guys would be all kissing his ass(to some extent, and i don't mean to offend anyone! its just how I feel about this)
 09/13/2007 11:13:23 PM · #43
while the OP is certainly entitled to her opinion, especially as a paying customer, there is a time and a place for everything. to start this discussion before the photographer has had a chance to complete his delivery is really jumping the gun, IMSVHO...

judy knew going in what his galleries looked like and what type of work he did. after looking through her gallery and some of his others, i don't see that he really did any worse or better than his previous efforts--all the same, it's really premature to even make that judgement.

and dustin, if you had wanted more, you should have asked for more. it might take a while for you to figure out what your worth and for your market to accept you for what you're worth. this guy, though, has established himself in terms of price and product, and that's what judy bought. i would hope she wouldn't have looked at his stuff and thought, "damn, what a deal...i'm getting a $10,000 photographer for under $1,500!"
 09/13/2007 11:20:12 PM · #44
First of all, I think a photographer who does a lot of weddings will undoubtedly occassinally have those that are less than his/her optimal work. I think this is probably one of those for him. Not terrible, but not as good as I expected. I am not really discussing his entire portfolio, as I obviously felt he's a good photographer when I hired him. I have to say that his online gallery does NOT showcase some of the best shots I've seen from him. I am discussing the particular event I hired him to photograph, and the resulting shots.

I've said all along, from the original post, that the results were adequate - which is better than you get from a lot of photographers, even more expensive ones. I've also said that there were probably a few things I should have done to get closer to the results I wanted. My goal in that matter was to try to not be in his way all the time telling him what to do. I should have made one or two requests more obvious and detailed, while not going overboard.

I don't expect 500 WOW shots. I don't even expect 500 good or great shots. I am simply saying none of his shots wowed me, and I thought there were a few things overlooked that should not have been.

If he does read this thread, I am not ashamed of any of my comments. I am hard to please...and I'll be the first to admit it. There has been some obvious disappointment shared, but also some nice comments.

I will also fully admit that I could not have done as good a job as he did. I might have been able to get the one or two "wow" shots (in my eyes..because I know what I want - which is why I might like to do some of my own) but couldn't come close to consistantly capturing the day as he has done.

Did I get my money's worth? Absolutely yes. Would I recommend him? Actually, yes I would, for a variety of reasons. Did I hope for better than I received? Yes, I did.

Also, for what it's worth, all the posed shots etc. were taken prior to the ceremony so that we'd be less pressured for time.

09/13/2007 11:22:13 PM · #45
Originally posted by Skip:
while the OP is certainly entitled to her opinion, especially as a paying customer, there is a time and a place for everything. to start this discussion before the photographer has had a chance to complete his delivery is really jumping the gun, IMSVHO...

judy knew going in what his galleries looked like and what type of work he did. after looking through her gallery and some of his others, i don't see that he really did any worse or better than his previous efforts--all the same, it's really premature to even make that judgement.

and dustin, if you had wanted more, you should have asked for more. it might take a while for you to figure out what your worth and for your market to accept you for what you're worth. this guy, though, has established himself in terms of price and product, and that's what judy bought. i would hope she wouldn't have looked at his stuff and thought, "damn, what a deal...i'm getting a $10,000 photographer for under $1,500!"

yeah I know I'm trying to find out how much I'm worth. but FWIW a friend of mine is a photo editor for one of the top wedding photographers in Victoria(its where i live) and he said that my work is alot better than hers.(like actually he wasn't trying to over play it) and he said the only way she still makes money is because he has to spend like 20 minutes on each image for her to make them good. Which was a good ego boost for me in saying I should start charing more, But it was a blast and a good addition for my portfolio, and now I do have a wedding under my belt!
 09/13/2007 11:27:27 PM · #46
Originally posted by Skip:
while the OP is certainly entitled to her opinion, especially as a paying customer, there is a time and a place for everything. to start this discussion before the photographer has had a chance to complete his delivery is really jumping the gun, IMSVHO...

judy knew going in what his galleries looked like and what type of work he did. after looking through her gallery and some of his others, i don't see that he really did any worse or better than his previous efforts--all the same, it's really premature to even make that judgement.

and dustin, if you had wanted more, you should have asked for more. it might take a while for you to figure out what your worth and for your market to accept you for what you're worth. this guy, though, has established himself in terms of price and product, and that's what judy bought. i would hope she wouldn't have looked at his stuff and thought, "damn, what a deal...i'm getting a $10,000 photographer for under $1,500!"

and I don't agree with the discussion really. Am I going to complain about it... no I'm not because it was her choice to do so, and me bitching about it won't change a thing.
But as a fellow photographer, I would not feel comfortable exposing my images publically that weren't the finished quality. Sure It'd be fine if he put them in a private gallery for her eyes only.

If it's not the finished product then its the photographers fault for putting them publicly, and I will judge them as if they were his finished product..
 09/13/2007 11:51:01 PM · #47
Originally posted by _eug:
The backgrounds don't seem to have much thought in them.


Like crosses growing out of heads?

Also, it really urks me when people think tilting a picture automatically = better picture.
 09/14/2007 12:24:48 AM · #48
Originally posted by Simms:
EDIT - On a subnote, since I have started using Lightroom, I can put a far better set of images up during the `uneditted` stage (if that makes sense) as things like crop/rotate and general adjustment are far quicker to implement. Adobe hit another homerun with that one.


That's kind of what I was going to say.

I looked through the images and they really don't look bad to me. But I do think that the very same images would like quite different in my hands using Adobe Lightroom to process them, than what these look like. And that's not to say his style is bad ... only that mine is different and that I am very happy with what I get out of LR.


09/14/2007 12:59:07 AM · #49
Originally posted by dwterry:
Originally posted by Simms:
EDIT - On a subnote, since I have started using Lightroom, I can put a far better set of images up during the `uneditted` stage (if that makes sense) as things like crop/rotate and general adjustment are far quicker to implement. Adobe hit another homerun with that one.


That's kind of what I was going to say.

I looked through the images and they really don't look bad to me. But I do think that the very same images would like quite different in my hands using Adobe Lightroom to process them, than what these look like. And that's not to say his style is bad ... only that mine is different and that I am very happy with what I get out of LR.

i thought Lightroom is awesome, then I was introduced to C1 Pro and excuse my language but HOLY SHIT its a great program. Best RAW software I've ever used and I'm looking forward to using it on the next photoshoot i do!
 09/14/2007 06:28:17 AM · #50
Originally posted by noisemaker:

i thought Lightroom is awesome, then I was introduced to C1 Pro and excuse my language but HOLY SHIT its a great program. Best RAW software I've ever used and I'm looking forward to using it on the next photoshoot i do!

I hate to hijack this thread, but what is so good about C1? I gave it a try so may times and fail to see the difference between ACR conversion and C1. Actually, I am not even sure how to properly use C1 as there is no manual.
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