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08/30/2007 10:11:07 AM · #1 |
40-year old venting here...
School contracted photographers are just getting worse and worse.
This company "Bryn Allen" was hired this year to do the senior photos AND apparently the rest of the yearbook photos.
When my daughter went up for her cap n' gown shot (I'd already done her true "senior" shots myself thank you very much), the form was unclear, so instead of a $10 sitting fee (which we never, ever paid for the YEARBOOK SHOT) there was also a $10 YEARBOOK PUBLICATION FEE! Excuse me??? I'd sent a check, so fortunately my girl had some cash on hand to cover it. Anyway, despite the fact that we told them up front we were not buying any pictures at all, she had to go through the poses with them and change clothes once or twice. So we had to pay a sitting fee for a sitting we didn't even want... we just needed one goofy snap and be done with it.
Then they sent the "proofs" -- which came out crappy. Fortunately for us, one of the yearbook poses came out alright and we picked that one. But their prices were ATTROCIOUS!!! You were forced to buy a ridiculously high package to get any photos -- unless you wanted to pay $40-60 for a single 8x10 (of the yearbook pose only, other poses were a $15 upcharge).
Despite a silly $20 fee (total) at the time of the shooting, we came out ok... and got to at least SEE the proofs first.
But now my son (9th grade) brought home the order form for the regular school photos -- to go in the yearbook. Of course these are the new style "pay in advance" ripoff scheme. Trusting a bored, overworked photographer and a typical 14 year old boy to get a good pose without food in the teeth, hair askew, etc... and we have to pay up front if we want any of the pictures. Bad bad plan. But of course, they have the parents over a barrel.
Again we have RIPOFF PRICING too. If we want a basic 8x10, they want $38!!!!!!! It used to be (not unrecently) that you could get the entire package with an 8x10, 5x7, several microscopic dollhouse portraits, etc. for $18 or so. Now to get a single shot, you have to mortgage the house. And again, you don't get to see them in advance!
I hope we here have more ethics than this.
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08/30/2007 10:39:10 AM · #2 |
| Our daughters' school has the pay in advance deal too, but you can return the prints for a full refund if you are not happy with them -- in fact, they'll schedule a free retake at one of their nearby studios if you prefer. I can't remember which "photo-mill" ours uses, but are you sure the Bryn Allen deal doesn't offer the same way out? |
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08/30/2007 10:46:24 AM · #3 |
Originally posted by Creature:
Our daughters' school has the pay in advance deal too, but you can return the prints for a full refund if you are not happy with them -- in fact, they'll schedule a free retake at one of their nearby studios if you prefer. I can't remember which "photo-mill" ours uses, but are you sure the Bryn Allen deal doesn't offer the same way out? |
Well, that would only solve the bad shot problem -- not the exborbitant cost one. I think we'll just let them take the one for the yearbook and I'll take him out and do the studio ones. Then I don't have to worry about copyright issues when I want more copies. :)
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08/30/2007 11:14:40 AM · #4 |
My mother did school photography for years, the pay in advance has pretty much always been the standard, except with senior photos, which they would do proofs for. The reason they made her go through all the poses is because they realize a lot of people will say "we dont want any photos" and then when they see the proofs they will buy them.
its funny that you would complain about them charging too much, since most of the other threads in this forum are about people who charge to little haha. |
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08/30/2007 11:14:53 AM · #5 |
That is how it works for our kids school photos too. Last year we made them reshoot both of our daughters portraits, One was a horrible pose not sure a real photographer would even push the shutter release for this. Other was just bad quality. Both reshoots turned out much better. Excuse we got for this was during the primary shoot they are very rushed to get 400+ kids shot in 2 days. The reshoot they have all day to do about 30-40 kids which allowed the photog more time to get the shot we wanted.
Originally posted by Creature:
Our daughters' school has the pay in advance deal too, but you can return the prints for a full refund if you are not happy with them -- in fact, they'll schedule a free retake at one of their nearby studios if you prefer. I can't remember which "photo-mill" ours uses, but are you sure the Bryn Allen deal doesn't offer the same way out? |
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08/30/2007 11:16:15 AM · #6 |
I think just about anybody here on DPChallenge is doing photography because they love it and I know a few are trying to figure out how to make a living at doing what they love. So... it always shocks me to find an individual or company who apparently go into photography in order to make a quick buck. I've encountered this same approach at our school... 2 crappy images captured in less than five minutes and insanely high prices for even a simple 8x10.
And,  ajdelaware, this is not to suggest your mom was a rip off artist. I'm sure, as in any profession, there are those who take great pride in their work and then there are those who slide in for a quick buck and make us all look bad.
Message edited by author 2007-08-30 11:18:25.
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08/30/2007 11:19:23 AM · #7 |
| Its kind of a double edge sword I think. Being a school photog isn't the cash cow that it used to be. Now everyone has a digital camera and is a critic, so a lot of people are using the same mindset of "i can just take it myself"...well companies have an overhead, so if not as many people are buying, they need to raise costs in order to cover that overhead. It kind of breaks the rules of supply and demand but what can ya do, over charge or go out of business? |
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08/30/2007 11:19:49 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
My mother did school photography for years, the pay in advance has pretty much always been the standard, except with senior photos, which they would do proofs for. The reason they made her go through all the poses is because they realize a lot of people will say "we dont want any photos" and then when they see the proofs they will buy them.
its funny that you would complain about them charging too much, since most of the other threads in this forum are about people who charge to little haha. |
Well I know around here the pay in advance thing has only been "common" for 5-10 years or so. I guess it depends on the company too and we may have been lucky to have ones with integrity.
I think what you said is true... It's a trap. Put out the proofs as bait and reel in a few more sales. But they might do that as well with the regular student shots. And with this day of internet and online sales, you don't even need to provide physical printed proofs.
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08/30/2007 11:22:29 AM · #9 |
| We often do that now with the sports shots we do (think school portraits for sports, you have them in a drawer at your house.) Even if someone isn't ordering, we will often take a picture anyway, cause its digital...it doesn't cost me anymore or any less to take that picture, so I might as well spend the 15 seconds to pose and take it and throw it up on the web and see what bites. |
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08/30/2007 11:24:38 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
Its kind of a double edge sword I think. Being a school photog isn't the cash cow that it used to be. Now everyone has a digital camera and is a critic, so a lot of people are using the same mindset of "i can just take it myself"...well companies have an overhead, so if not as many people are buying, they need to raise costs in order to cover that overhead. It kind of breaks the rules of supply and demand but what can ya do, over charge or go out of business? |
Seems to defeat the whole "make it up on volume" thing. They've got a sure thing contract with the school. In the high school they get first crack at nearly 2000 kids. They do have some overhead, but I think this place was using 3 photographers total (3 stations). I'm sure they've run business models that show they make more money with the pay-in-advance way of doing things... but that "making more money" steals from the parents the convenience and quality... and I would bet that most people just write a check and take what they get. If they only have 10% reshoots, I'm sure they had an even higher number of bad photographs.
Plus the parents then have to make the time to get in for the reshoot. Puts the burden in their court.
It really should be they get to see the product and then decide whether to buy. Then if they want to take the time to reshoot, then can.
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
We often do that now with the sports shots we do (think school portraits for sports, you have them in a drawer at your house.) Even if someone isn't ordering, we will often take a picture anyway, cause its digital...it doesn't cost me anymore or any less to take that picture, so I might as well spend the 15 seconds to pose and take it and throw it up on the web and see what bites. |
And that's a great idea. But doing a 15 second pose should not require a "sitting" fee for a required sitting.
Message edited by author 2007-08-30 11:25:45.
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08/30/2007 11:28:09 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
Its kind of a double edge sword I think. Being a school photog isn't the cash cow that it used to be. Now everyone has a digital camera and is a critic, so a lot of people are using the same mindset of "i can just take it myself"...well companies have an overhead, so if not as many people are buying, they need to raise costs in order to cover that overhead. It kind of breaks the rules of supply and demand but what can ya do, over charge or go out of business? |
LOL!!!
I think the problem is that people were taking the proofs and scanning them to print them themselves on their crappy printers that just fudge the photo up :) That explains the "pay up front" thing to me :)
And you are right, they would have to raise costs to cover the losses :) |
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08/30/2007 11:36:39 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by TCGuru:
LOL!!!
I think the problem is that people were taking the proofs and scanning them to print them themselves on their crappy printers that just fudge the photo up :) That explains the "pay up front" thing to me :)
And you are right, they would have to raise costs to cover the losses :) |
Which they have... if they charge $38 for a single 8x10.
Because someone who can clean up a proof copy can also order a single picture, scan clean, and make all the copies they want.
So everyone is punished with higher prices.
They think they are the music industry it seems. And like the music industry, people are looking for new sources for their photos (us) or just pay the exorbitant prices.
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08/30/2007 11:43:33 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Seems to defeat the whole "make it up on volume" thing. They've got a sure thing contract with the school. In the high school they get first crack at nearly 2000 kids. They do have some overhead, but I think this place was using 3 photographers total (3 stations). I'm sure they've run business models that show they make more money with the pay-in-advance way of doing things... but that "making more money" steals from the parents the convenience and quality... and I would bet that most people just write a check and take what they get. If they only have 10% reshoots, I'm sure they had an even higher number of bad photographs.
Plus the parents then have to make the time to get in for the reshoot. Puts the burden in their court.
It really should be they get to see the product and then decide whether to buy. Then if they want to take the time to reshoot, then can.
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The other thing though which is a problem with the "proof" system is that its too many middle men. If the company gives them to the school, then the school gives them to the kids, and then the kids give them to the parents. Then you have to worry about kids losing them, or them personally "vetoing" the shots (at those ages, kids are their own toughest critics) and they never make it to the parent, then once the parents get it, who knows how long it will take them to get the payment back to the company. This also slows up your processing time, waiting for orders to come in so you arent sending the most out at once instead of 1 or 2 shots at a time. Then you have to deliver them back to the school and once again go through that "distribution chain" again, or you have to mail them to the parents (more money out of your profit).
Or you can mail the proofs to the parents...2000 students...whats that come to $800 in shipping?
Well one thing you have to ask is this - how much does the school get and how do they get it? I know when we do the sports stuff, its a fund raiser for the organization. I wouldn't be surprised if a portion of that "mandatory" sitting fee goes straight to the school. (Also, we don't charge a sitting fee for the sports stuff) |
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08/30/2007 11:48:58 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Seems to defeat the whole "make it up on volume" thing. They've got a sure thing contract with the school. In the high school they get first crack at nearly 2000 kids. They do have some overhead, but I think this place was using 3 photographers total (3 stations). I'm sure they've run business models that show they make more money with the pay-in-advance way of doing things... but that "making more money" steals from the parents the convenience and quality... and I would bet that most people just write a check and take what they get. If they only have 10% reshoots, I'm sure they had an even higher number of bad photographs.
Plus the parents then have to make the time to get in for the reshoot. Puts the burden in their court.
It really should be they get to see the product and then decide whether to buy. Then if they want to take the time to reshoot, then can.
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The other thing though which is a problem with the "proof" system is that its too many middle men. If the company gives them to the school, then the school gives them to the kids, and then the kids give them to the parents. Then you have to worry about kids losing them, or them personally "vetoing" the shots (at those ages, kids are their own toughest critics) and they never make it to the parent, then once the parents get it, who knows how long it will take them to get the payment back to the company. This also slows up your processing time, waiting for orders to come in so you arent sending the most out at once instead of 1 or 2 shots at a time. Then you have to deliver them back to the school and once again go through that "distribution chain" again, or you have to mail them to the parents (more money out of your profit).
Or you can mail the proofs to the parents...2000 students...whats that come to $800 in shipping?
Well one thing you have to ask is this - how much does the school get and how do they get it? I know when we do the sports stuff, its a fund raiser for the organization. I wouldn't be surprised if a portion of that "mandatory" sitting fee goes straight to the school. (Also, we don't charge a sitting fee for the sports stuff) |
Agreed... Proofs are bad for the photographer. But worse is the blind payment thing. And the parents aren't even there for the sitting.
This could easily be solved with web-based proofs or even contact sheets on normal, thin paper -- watermarked of course.
I guess from before (when I was a kid and printing proofs was MORE expensive), it worked. Now things are even cheaper.
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08/30/2007 11:56:25 AM · #15 |
Yeah, web based proofs would be great...but heres a sad story about America - youd be surprised how many families (especially at some of the public schools) can't afford a computer, but oddly enough ive also found these are the families that will spend the most on pictures.
Really the only way for the system to work is this.
A photo day, pre-paid, shoot em all, process and ship, and then have a makeup/retake day after that. With digital the turn around time is so ridiculously short, we've often had orders ready to deliver 2 days after shooting them (we use a great company for our printing and processing.)
Yes, it does cost a little extra of your personal time, but in the long run, you maximize profit. |
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08/30/2007 12:03:30 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
Yeah, web based proofs would be great...but heres a sad story about America - youd be surprised how many families (especially at some of the public schools) can't afford a computer, but oddly enough ive also found these are the families that will spend the most on pictures.
Really the only way for the system to work is this.
A photo day, pre-paid, shoot em all, process and ship, and then have a makeup/retake day after that. With digital the turn around time is so ridiculously short, we've often had orders ready to deliver 2 days after shooting them (we use a great company for our printing and processing.)
Yes, it does cost a little extra of your personal time, but in the long run, you maximize profit. |
But again it ignore the problem of "pay in advance" and then the parent has to deal with the second day off, etc. to do the makeup day. Yes, it costs a little extra of the photographer's personal time (actually their employed time), but a lot of hassle for the parents/students.
And while yes, I understand they cannot "afford" computers (but when I worked with pizza places, poor people were the biggest spending customers too). Also at our public library, the computers there are PACKED with people (mostly kids) playing Runescape or other nonsense -- very little research going on.
Those people COULD use that option. Or a computer at work. Or as a last resort, they could request a proof sheet sent out to them. It would be such a low number needing them, it would not impact the company too much to do those few. I think most would go online for the quick results however.
P.S. Thanks for debating this without getting personal! :)
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08/30/2007 12:18:52 PM · #17 |
Well I don't see why its really a hassle to the parent, with the exception of senior portraits, all other school pictures are taken during the school year. It is a hassle if the parent has to drive them to the studio to do it. Thats an intentional move, the parent will just accept the pictures because they don't want to go through the hassle of it all. I think when it comes down to it, these places really are in it strictly for the money, there is no art involved really. Its very direct lighting, every kid is posed exactly the same (this isn't so much the photogs fault as it is the schools - a lot of them now have school id's and the photos are the same as the year book ones), and they are working with anywhere from 500-2000 kids in a "speed" scenario.
It would be great to be able to get each kid for an hour shoot where they could get a little creative and get the camera off the tripod, but time wise, its just not realistic. |
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08/30/2007 12:20:36 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
Well I don't see why its really a hassle to the parent, with the exception of senior portraits, all other school pictures are taken during the school year. It is a hassle if the parent has to drive them to the studio to do it. Thats an intentional move, the parent will just accept the pictures because they don't want to go through the hassle of it all. I think when it comes down to it, these places really are in it strictly for the money, there is no art involved really. Its very direct lighting, every kid is posed exactly the same (this isn't so much the photogs fault as it is the schools - a lot of them now have school id's and the photos are the same as the year book ones), and they are working with anywhere from 500-2000 kids in a "speed" scenario.
It would be great to be able to get each kid for an hour shoot where they could get a little creative and get the camera off the tripod, but time wise, its just not realistic. |
It's not a hassle to the parent *IF* they get to see the pictures first before any payment. Otherwise, it's a huge pain in the rump.
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08/30/2007 12:31:46 PM · #19 |
I don't know if I like this method from the pt. of view of the portrait company or not but...
Our son's daycare had a picture day and a couple weeks later we got a package sent home with him that included a couple 8x10s, some 5x7s, wallets and a class pic along with an order form for additional prints.
We were to return the pics we didn't want (could return all of them) and pay for the ones we keep.
If we didn't return any then we'd receive a bill.
Seems like a good method since parents are more likely to keep at least a few pics than order them site unseen.
I can't remember the prices but I think an 8x10 was around $20.
The more you ordered the cheaper per unit they got. |
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08/30/2007 12:35:26 PM · #20 |
That seems like an incredibly trusting and incredibly wasteful way to do it, as well as very time consuming.
What happens if you keep and don't pay? |
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08/30/2007 12:42:28 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
That seems like an incredibly trusting and incredibly wasteful way to do it, as well as very time consuming.
What happens if you keep and don't pay? |
I think it depends on how captive your audience is.
This would be the parents' first "school" pictures of their kids so I'm sure interest is high. I'm also not sure what legal recourse you really would have if someone just kept them.
Does it make sense for 2000 kids? No. For ~100 maybe, especially if you can count on getting 50% or more to buy. |
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08/30/2007 12:46:46 PM · #22 |
So as a parent.... would you take your child to a designated studio instead, like some senior groups do?
You get a form with a rather cheap package deal and are requested to take them in between this date and that, and you get to digitally proof the picture that day, you get to be there with your kid, and you can order whatever you want in addition to the low upfront? then for the shool yearbook, they get the copies they want, and the student's get a good number of those trader pictures delivered to the school all at the same time? |
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08/30/2007 12:53:50 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by rswank:
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
That seems like an incredibly trusting and incredibly wasteful way to do it, as well as very time consuming.
What happens if you keep and don't pay? |
I think it depends on how captive your audience is.
This would be the parents' first "school" pictures of their kids so I'm sure interest is high. I'm also not sure what legal recourse you really would have if someone just kept them.
Does it make sense for 2000 kids? No. For ~100 maybe, especially if you can count on getting 50% or more to buy. |
I think the only way this would work is with like small day cares and preschools, nothing large at all.
Chesire - that would be a smart idea, but it would be hellish. Imagine trying to do that for a whole senior class? I know people do this anyway for a less "formal" senior picture, but some yearbook companies won't take outside photographers pictures*** (so the student would have to get the yearbook picture taken at school anyway)
***the argument used is that they want to make sure the photos all have the same feel, so one person isnt sticking out ridiculously because while everyone else has shoulder up shots, this person has a full length, or their face takes up the whole frame because it was taken too close, etc.
Message edited by author 2007-08-30 12:55:20. |
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08/30/2007 01:19:50 PM · #24 |
Last year, my daughter had pics taken. I got to see the proofs before buying the package, which wasn't too ungodly priced. The problem is...I never got the pictures. The school refuses to do anything about it. If I had the backgrounds and stuff, I'd do it myself.
Luckily, I didn't have to pay anything up front for it, aside from the cost of the pics that I did buy.
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08/30/2007 01:31:07 PM · #25 |
| IMO school photogs are in it for the money...500 head shots is not gonna be an outlet for creativity... |
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