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08/23/2007 05:53:41 PM · #76 |
ALERT: This is meant to be tongue-in-cheek
The notion of spreading democracy even if folk don't want it reminds me of a Neil Innes sketch when he was positioning himself as a Bob Dylan-esque figure.
Standing at the mic he intoned the immortal words:
"I've suffered for my music, now it's your turn"
Substitute democracy (or any other ideological or philosophical theme that attempts to impose itself) and the message is kind of clear. |
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08/23/2007 06:10:54 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by rswank:
1) pay for a decent health care system to rise from having the lowest life expectancy of any industrialized nation
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I hear the money expended figure is upwards of 500 billion for the entire Iraq fiasco. That certainly, by itself would have funded a health care system for the US.
Originally posted by rswank:
2) fund their public education system
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What's wrong with the current means of funding? It's mostly local.
Originally posted by rswank:
3) maintain their deteriorating infrastructure
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Same question as number 2. With the exception of some portion of the interstate highway system the infrastructure thing is a local obligation.
Originally posted by rswank:
4) pay rswank enough to be the radical dude that he is
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If he already is that radical dude why should our tax monies pay a penny? LOL
Originally posted by rswank:
2 billions plus a WEEK in Iraq btw. |
This is just a very base cost. You can double to triple anything you see in print or hear on the news. This neglects the toll in human lives on both sides. What a waste. And it looks like Iran is next.....
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08/23/2007 06:25:05 PM · #78 |
What a beautiful morning it is. Ma who knew a picture could spur such a debate over the United States Military.
I am going to be very careful in my selection of words here.
First, it is well known that the US spends more on their defense budget then any other nation, and in fact more than like the next three or four or five nations combined.
But all of this funding does not just go to fighting wars or shows of force.
Look at the humanitarian missions we have conducted. Every branch of service was in New Orleans after Katrina helping those where incapable of leaving the city along. The great Tsunami, it was again US forces bringing releif to the people. the countless missions to South America providing medical support to those that need it, or the Annual New Horizons exercises where the military joins forces to build schools, community centers, and hospitol buildings in impovershed communities.
Somalia....started as a humanitarian mission. Its sole purpose was to provide food to the people of Somalia. Unfortunately the food wasn't reaching the people that needed it so they tried to go a different direction to ensure that it would reach those people.
Iraq....well, what needs to be said about Iraq? I don't think much, as it is covered every night on the news and in fashion to sway one's view on this subject. I personnaly feel uless you have spent time walking in the sands of Iraq you can't honestly formulate an opinion on what is going on over there. All you can do is take excerpts from news reports and from biased politicians. But you don't have the first hand knowledge to know what happens, why it happens, and if it was necessary to happen.
Now if you read any speach by a Senior Air Force leader these days they will brag about how we have been engaged in combat operations for the last 17 years. That is right, 17 years straight we have been flying combat sorties in the middle east. Bragging rights? I don't think so. What does that say about our technology, our people, our resolve when it has taken 17 years and the job isn't done. We use a saying around here as a joke and it goes, "thank god for smart bombs."
We all know that mistakes were made in Iraq. Even the chief Decider has admitted to some mistakes. But that doesn't take away from the fact that good things have been done there. Sure some bad things have happened as well, but when you look at the overall picture I would say that wht has happened has been better than what was there before. Don't get me wrong, I don't like people dying, especially when their death serves no purpose, but that doesn't change the fact that Iraq will be a better place. When, I don't know. But it will happen.
Our military budget is important for so many reasons. Military research does not just benefit the military. How many of you have had Lasik? Thank the military for that as it was their radar tracking technology that led to the development of laser eye surgery. Quik-clot is used in countless ER's everyday to stop bleeding. Where did it start? Reasearch for the battle field. New technology to detect breast cancer in women in the earliest stages got its start from underwater sonar research. The list goes on an on.
So, we have the humanitarian aspect, the research aspect, and of course the defense aspect.
How many of you realize that the world is slipping back into a cold war? Russia has just recently begun long range bomber paatrol missions. These are similar to the missions that we flew with our B-52's and the Russians flew with their Bear bombers during the height of the cold war. Russia has also been playing with the gas supplies of their smaller neighbors. A move that has been seen as an attempt to pursuade these neighbors into another Warsaw Pact.
Our defense of the Korena peninsula has global implications. South Korea has the 13th highest gross domestic product in the world. A war with the North would cripple their economy and in a world with a global market would send the economies of every other nation tumbling with it. Their loss exports of cars, electronics, cargo ships, YKK zippers, and countless other items would hamper the global trade for years while other countries rally to pick up the slack.
This defense budget isn't all for a Hitleresque leader to try to conquer the world. It provides so much more than anyone could really imagine.
Again my sopabox is made of Tide and this is of course my own $.02 I make no comments that are of the official view of anything other than my own opinion, and I only represent myself in these comments, and no one else.
Have a great day.
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08/23/2007 06:30:05 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by fir3bird:
2) fund their public education system
What's wrong with the current means of funding? It's mostly local.
3) maintain their deteriorating infrastructure
Same question as number 2. With the exception of some portion of the interstate highway system the infrastructure thing is a local obligation.
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Actually, billions of Federal dollars a year are pumped into everything from city and county roads to state highways, bridges, you name it. In fact the town I grew up in didn't use a dime of local tax dollars to repave/improve the city streets. Our senator was a good ol' boy who knew how to play the system and funneled 30-50k per year into our town (it was small) and even more into the neighboring cities.
Education and road dollars are one of the largest bullying tools used by the Federal Government against states.
Message edited by author 2007-08-23 18:38:01.
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08/23/2007 07:42:02 PM · #80 |
Couldn't have been said any better BHuseman.
I can only add...If you aren't gonna stand behind your troops, go stand in front of them. |
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08/24/2007 03:46:57 AM · #81 |
 BHuseman's eloquent case for defence spending is an interesting one as it is difficult to question some of the positive side effects of defence R&D. It has often been said that, as necessity is the Mother of invention, being at war, cold or otherwise, is a major spur to the creativity of the human mind.
Perhaps what is sad is the need for all of this in the first place. There is no doubting the fact that investment in defence is to the detriment of often more pressing domestic and international issues and problems, particularly those of social welfare. There is also no doubting the fact that some nations are very keen to defend their "national interest" even when it extends way beyond their own borders: geo-politik rules. What is interesting is that, with the advent of more instant news feeds and capture, the groundswell of public opinion for those interventions that go beyond the national borders often changes from positive to negative in short order.
There are hawks and doves in every nation and their influence waxes and wanes over time and with the political disposition of their nation as a whole. There are also insurgencies occurring all over the globe that have the potential to affect all nations, often leading to the political feeling that prevention is often better than cure, so nip the problem in the bud now before it reaches us. Such is life.
But when I see and hear about the problems that so many face in the domestic heartland of the great democracies, about the lack of funds being made available to solve these problems because of the allocation of substantial budgets to the defence sector, it makes me stop and think. Politicians seem so keen to garner public favour by taking on the world's problems through a show of force, but how often is this at the expense of solving pressing domestic and fundamental international problems?
I know I do not have the answer to this dilemma and, to date, I am not sure that I have seen any politicians who have either, with the possible exception of Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela in their domains. All I do know is that there are a lot of brave individuals out there putting their lives on the line for reasons that must be as incomprehensible to them as they sometimes appear to us. And that is another sad aspect of this perennial problem: it is the ordinary people who suffer through the political obsessions of their leaders.
Apologies for the rant. |
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08/24/2007 04:16:01 AM · #82 |
Originally posted by obsidian:
that is another sad aspect of this perennial problem: it is the ordinary people who suffer through the political obsessions of their leaders. |
often we forget that the political leaders are ordinary people like you and me who changed after being elected. |
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08/24/2007 05:12:50 AM · #83 |
Very impressive photo - to me anyway. I look back on my days in the Navy with great pride and fondness. I agree with Brad that people should separate their feelings for the Government & Politics from their feelings for those who serve. And while the Military is most certainly a tool of the Government, it should not be a used as a Political pawn by any party, but that's wishful thinking. Anyway---
Here's a smaller Battle Group circa 1983:
Can ya see me waving? |
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08/24/2007 11:46:14 AM · #84 |
You write an interesting piece, BHuseman. I donĂ¢€™t have a problem with the important existence of the military, but I donĂ¢€™t like a couple of your arguments.
The US military is undoubtedly key to the successful delivery of many humanitarian and peace keeping projects worldwide. The US does not have an obligation to do this, but nor is it unique: most countries with capacity to do so participate in a similar degree relative to their wealth and military capability. This is a generic issue, not a US issue.
Cynically speaking, humanitarian and peace keeping projects are useful in keeping military forces occupied beneficially during times of relative peace. They confer status and influence in international politics, and opportunities for home-grown corporate expansion, influence and profit. The fact that humanitarian aid is (as a matter of convenience) often carried out by the military does not justify the existence of the military.
Your assertion that it is a fact that Iraq will be a better place is almost certainly correct, but you assume that it will be *because* of the invasion when it is a strong argument that it will be *despite* the invasion.
In Korea, the American presence reflects the historic desire to secure the US Pacific border against the threat of Korean unification under a communist banner. The US should be regarded as effectively maintaining a military border rather than providing charitable or humanitarian assistance.
IMO the military should be regarded for what it is: an effective means of self defence providing the capability to engage in offensive operations.
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08/24/2007 12:05:49 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by BHuseman:
First, it is well known that the US spends more on their defense budget then any other nation, and in fact more than like the next three or four or five nations combined.
...
This defense budget isn't all for a Hitleresque leader to try to conquer the world. It provides so much more than anyone could really imagine.
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Agreed that there is a lot of good that comes out of the defense budget whether it's as beneficial as you paint is open to debate.
An important thing to remember is that Iraq isn't funded from the defense budget. It's being paid for on credit.
Also, not to turn this into a debate on whether any good will come out of Iraq but, I think it's a little too safe of you to say "that Iraq will be a better place. When, I don't know. But it will happen."
Of course it will be a better place, it can't get much worse.
It will also be a better place once we stop trying to force an imaginary country (created by the leaque of nations in ~1926) into our brand of democracy and get the hell out.
ETA, I couldn't disagree more with the following statement:
"unless you have spent time walking in the sands of Iraq you can't honestly formulate an opinion on what is going on over there."
Do you apply that rule to other things in life where you don't have first hand experience?
Of course you can form educated opinions without having humped through the desert being shot at.
Message edited by author 2007-08-24 12:09:17. |
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08/24/2007 12:46:20 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by obsidian:
that is another sad aspect of this perennial problem: it is the ordinary people who suffer through the political obsessions of their leaders. |
often we forget that the political leaders are ordinary people like you and me who changed after being elected. |
Something like:
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely?
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08/24/2007 12:57:40 PM · #87 |
I had a lot of fun processing those pictures, they were quite noisy :)
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08/24/2007 02:30:20 PM · #88 |
| I'll bypass the political discussion - just not my thing - but if anyone would like to see pictures from Kuwait and Iraq, I have a few in a folder called The Desert Collection. Note that my ability to leave the installations is limited - cannot leave at all in Iraq, and can't go too many places in Kuwait - but it might give you a glimpse of at least the places where the military (not just US military) is these days. |
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08/24/2007 03:30:04 PM · #89 |
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08/25/2007 08:41:52 AM · #90 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
I'll bypass the political discussion - just not my thing - but if anyone would like to see pictures from Kuwait and Iraq, I have a few in a folder called The Desert Collection. Note that my ability to leave the installations is limited - cannot leave at all in Iraq, and can't go too many places in Kuwait - but it might give you a glimpse of at least the places where the military (not just US military) is these days. |
What a great portfolio, Debs. Probably says more about the "life we don't see" in the forces than anything I have seen in a long time. |
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08/29/2007 11:49:34 PM · #91 |
Simms - I've seen the image before, but I never tire of it. Thank you. :)
BHuseman - Thanks - you were eloquent and composed, better than I could do. Be safe!
Melethia - You as well, be safe!
Brad - Thank you. :)
Art/Ken - Thank you. :)
When I openend this thread I was thinking, uhm, okay, Now what is someone saying about our military. So it was a pleasant surprise to see the pic. I sat a little taller in the seat and could feel the pride rising up.... yes, for the picture, but more so for what it represents. Yes, those boats, ships, planes and jets, to me are gorgeous.
I am proud to be an American, I am proud that my family, all the way back to when we first arrived in this country, has served for our country in the military, I am proud to be a military brat and damn proud of my 3 nephews serving their country now. As well as being proud of the rest of those that serve. Stay safe...
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08/30/2007 12:15:43 AM · #92 |
I do not want to become entangled in a long, pointless arguement about the overspending on the US military and the obsessions of George W. .
I do feel compelled to at least question a couple of your statements because no one else has. Please do not take it as a personal attack, in many ways the US military has helped the world, but keep in mind that it was not asked to be the "world police". I doubt that lots of folks in New Orleans this week feel real happy about the 2 billion per week spending in Iraq on a lost cause, when their city, in the USA, is still mostly in ruins because the gov't has not bothered to rebuild it.
Originally posted by BHuseman:
How many of you realize that the world is slipping back into a cold war? Russia has just recently begun long range bomber patrol missions. These are similar to the missions that we flew with our B-52's and the Russians flew with their Bear bombers during the height of the cold war. Russia has also been playing with the gas supplies of their smaller neighbors. A move that has been seen as an attempt to pursuade these neighbors into another Warsaw Pact.
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Perhaps you should mention that the US and Britain have never stopped flying their own versions of these long range missions (even during the lack o a cold war), which is what prompted Russia to resume their own now that they can afford it again? And how can you talk about Russia playing with gas supplies while defending the US presence in Iraq? (not to defend what Russia is doing by any means, just pointing out that the US does the same) Everyone knows it was not WMDs that they went there for.
Anyways, as I said, that is not meant as a personal attack, just as an observation from someone that does not believe in following blindly. :)
stay safe.
Message edited by author 2007-08-30 00:16:27. |
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08/30/2007 12:33:55 AM · #93 |
| Very cool image!...As far as Iraq, we would had ended up there in time anyway. The thing Bush did wrong was not finishing the job with Osama bin Laden. Than following up with his statement that he would follow the trail of terroristism to any country that supports terrorist. OOps that darn can of worms.... |
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08/30/2007 12:50:21 AM · #94 |
Just when you think a good debate will end on its own it seems it gets dug up from the abyss.
A week ago aI saw a reply to my post and I started to upload images of things I saw while I was in Iraq. As I searched through my folder of Iraq images I decided that I didn't want to continue in this debate.
It isn't that I don't beleive in what I wrote, I jsut didn't feel that continuing the debate was necessary.
I will agree that we have continued to fly our long range bombers around the world. Most of the time these flights have been to another country to put warheads on foreheads, but there have been the training missions where just flew them to do so.
When I was stationed at Whiteman we had a Nuclear Operation Readiness Inspection. This inspection was to test our ability to not only drop wareheads on foreheads, but to do so with mushroom clouds. We also maintaint 450 missiles buried in the North Dakota, Wyoming, and Montana countrysides with crews on alert 24/7 to launch them if given the order. Each missile contains ten warheads that I beleive have more destructive power than Little Boy and Fat Man had alone.
So did the cold war ever really end? Sure it did. Despite the fact that we still have these weapons, and that we have crews ready to deliver them if needed, the cold war did end.
Go to Davis Monthan Air Force Base in Tuscon Arizona and see the boneyard. The vast collection of a mojority of our long range bomber fleet that was destroyed by large wrecking balls. Or drive through the Missouri countryside, or the eastern half of North Dakota and see all of the missl sites that have been boxed up, their missles removed, their launch control facitlities covered up to never be used again. These sites all taken out of commission due to the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty.
The cold war is coming back due to the cool relations between the US and Russia. While many of those relations will probably be blamed on the Chief Decider, it is a reality.
Yes, I agree, it is sad that we are building up Iraq while letting our own infrastructure deteriorate. New Orleans is still trying to rebuild while we pump billions into Iraq, these facts can not be ignored. I also think it is sad as John Kerry (and this is the only thing I will agree with him over) said, we are closing fire stations in America and opening them up in Iraq.
Sure not everythign the military spends their money on is perfect. Sure mistakes are made and our country, our military and every other country on the world must live with those mistakes, but in the end we can not fault our military spending for those mistakes.
Several people have mentioned that we could pay for our helathcare, our education and several other domestic programs, but they have failed to realise how much of our defense budget goes right back into the community.
Why is it that congressmen fight against base closures? Becuase a large amount of the military spending goes right back to their communities. Marietta Georgia porfits everyday from the Air Forces most expensive Fighter Aircraft ever developed. Newport News Virginia, profits from every Nimitz Class Air Craft Carrier we launch into the Seven Seas.
Hey, I grew up in San Diego, and I saw the amount of that military spending that was being dumped into my community. I can't tell you how many times my dad would have consturction contracts on military bases, those contracts put food on my plate and shoes on my feet. It is not like military spending just goes bye-bye and nobody in America benefits.
Again, these are just my opinions, I do not represent anyone else with these opinions, I am not speaking on behalf of the United States, the military, or anyone in the military. I make all statements as a private citizen and in know way am representing my status in the military to make these statements.
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08/30/2007 12:57:12 AM · #95 |
| My apologies, I brought this back from the abyss, not to debate, but to say thank you. I'll let it drop. |
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08/30/2007 01:03:27 AM · #96 |
No need to apologize. I aprreciate you taking the time to thank the military members, and I know you didn't intend on the debate continuing. Besides, it is a good debate.
Originally posted by Skyarcher:
My apologies, I brought this back from the abyss, not to debate, but to say thank you. I'll let it drop. |
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08/30/2007 01:09:41 AM · #97 |
Originally posted by BHuseman:
Besides, it is a good debate. |
Yeah, but let's not continue it here -- this thread should be to discuss the photograph(s) and our own reaction to them, not to debate those opinions. That can continue in its own thread. |
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08/30/2007 01:10:19 AM · #98 |
Originally posted by BHuseman:
Just when you think a good debate will end on its own it seems it gets dug up from the abyss.......
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Would not the community benefits be greater if you were building schools/hospitals/low cost housing, etc. instead of military hardware? |
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