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08/20/2007 03:49:52 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by SaraR:
In America, you can seriously demand the price difference back if the item is reduced? |
New one to me too :-) |
Its true to an extent. Some stores will allow you to "return" the item, and repurchase it at the new price if purchased within a certain period of time before hand. (without bringing the item back)
So its not really the same as just going in and saying "oh I bought that 2 months ago and it was $x and now its $y, I want the difference"
I think most places let you do 2 weeks tops maybe, and you have to have all your receipts.
Message edited by author 2007-08-20 15:51:00. |
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08/20/2007 03:49:52 PM · #152 |
Originally posted by SaraR:
In America, you can seriously demand the price difference back if the item is reduced? |
Sure, within a reasonable amount of time. Otherwise, you'd just return it and buy it again anyway. |
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08/20/2007 03:51:17 PM · #153 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
I love internet arguments, cause in the end, we are all losers anyway. |
To be VERY un-PC... "Arguing on the Internet is like running in the Special Olympics... you may win, but you're still retarded." I know I'm gonna catch hell for that one, but I read it off a t-shirt.
BTW, I'm special... hehe
Edit: to correct a tard moment in grammar. |
I was gonna say it, but I didn't want anyone to get their pink panties in a bunch.
AND SPAZ - indicted? Do you live in some crazy made up land?! |
Look at Enron, World Com etc. All cases where indictments were made based on lies. |
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08/20/2007 03:55:07 PM · #154 |
| And embezzling of millions of dollars. If I start embezzling millions of dollars and defrauding my stock holders (which are me) then I will seek your legal beagle advice haha. |
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08/20/2007 03:58:35 PM · #155 |
| I'm surprised the frisky SuperCensor hasn't bagged this thread yet. |
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08/20/2007 03:59:35 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
I'm surprised the frisky SuperCensor hasn't bagged this thread yet. |
I call last post! ;-P
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08/20/2007 04:00:24 PM · #157 |
| But seriously though....go take pictures. |
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08/20/2007 04:03:17 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
But seriously though....go take pictures. |
can't... I charge too much and no one wants to hire me... ;-) j/k... I'm editing pics between rants.
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08/20/2007 04:08:18 PM · #159 |
| I think you and I would just get in a lot of trouble if we were ever in the same place at the same time. We'd probably end up beating up old ladies and stealing their social security checks and using them to support Michael Vick's legal fund. |
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08/20/2007 04:10:14 PM · #160 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
And embezzling of millions of dollars. If I start embezzling millions of dollars and defrauding my stock holders (which are me) then I will seek your legal beagle advice haha. |
Well, in that case, the IRS will be interested.
Mixing of personal and business assets is a no-no. |
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08/20/2007 04:12:28 PM · #161 |
| And the Federal Trade Commission, since I would obviously dump my stock when I hear from myself that Im going to be doing what I did. |
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08/20/2007 04:19:50 PM · #162 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
And the Federal Trade Commission, since I would obviously dump my stock when I hear from myself that Im going to be doing what I did. |
Mixing of personal and business assets is one of the most common ways that small businesses get into big trouble with the IRS. Have fun during your audit.
The IRS won't even give you a reach-around when they have you bent over.
Message edited by author 2007-08-20 16:21:11. |
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08/20/2007 04:26:17 PM · #163 |
| Ha, you were being serious? Im not incorporated and I work for someone else currently, so no worries there. You are like the fun police of the internet. |
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08/20/2007 04:29:53 PM · #164 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
You are like the fun police of the internet. |
Nah, that's what SC is for. |
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08/20/2007 05:15:31 PM · #165 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
And about my "lie to them" comment. I think im being slightly misinterpreted.
Don't lie to them about what you plan on delivering.
Don't tell them one price and then charge them more later.
Don't cancel a job because "your dog ate your camera"
These are horrible things to do to a person.
To tell them that you gave so and so this rate for a reason other then "I felt like it", that is hardly a bad thing, that is quite normal because its really none of their business why you charged who you charged what you charged. |
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08/20/2007 05:27:50 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
I just don't understand why it has to be all about the almighty dollar and squeezing every possible one out of everyone. |
Capitalism. Communism works differently...oh yeah, that idea failed.
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08/20/2007 05:31:36 PM · #167 |
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08/20/2007 05:35:31 PM · #168 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
Bottom line is.
everyone will never agree on this topic so we should....
1. Charge whatever you like. If you can make a living on $500/ wedding go for it. If you want to charge $10K go for it. What we are seeing is that there is a market for both so just pick which side you belong to.
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those that want to charge $500 are thinking like a BUYER not a SELLER. Are you BUYING wedding photography or SELLING wedding photography?
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
2. If you are inexperienced and unprepared go for it anyway. If you screw up your business is done for, if you nail it your business will prosper. Just jump in the deep end and swim or drown, up to you.
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Why charge $500? The response beacuse 'they' can't afford it - so the photog is thinking of the B&G's 'happiness', right? But then will jump in with no training, little knowledge and often insufficient gear and preparation and 'hope for the best'. Suddenly it's not the B&G their thinking about anymore, but themsleves.
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
3. L glass, backup gear etc... Refer to #2. If you can do the entire wedding w/ a kit lens and no flash go for it. Again you will sink or swim and its only the photog who will catch the wrath of an angry bride who will no doubt about it tell everyone who will listen how much you suck.
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You're fool to try a wedding as the primary photog without backup gear. You're allowed to be a fool if you want to. Generally, it's more the photog that the gear BUT when things get tough gear matters. Faster focus, more flash with faster recycle, faster lenses. I don't know of anyone that said L glass isn't worth the extra cost, sold it and went back to the kit lens.
[/quote]
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
I personally just jumped in with no experience. I did however have backup gear and decent glass and flash. I figured it would be me who screwed this up not my camera malfunctioning. I also booked my first wedding, told them it was my first a few months in advance. I used this time to get my shit together. I studied up on flash use and practiced. Its not that hard, there is just no do overs. |
I assisted a couple of times, did 3 free weddings, 2 as primary (for those people that 'can't afford a photographer' BTW) and then bought adequate gear and jumped in. I have learned from each wedding WHY gear matters, why you need backup, and why you should charge a living wage.
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08/20/2007 05:50:23 PM · #169 |
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08/20/2007 06:03:18 PM · #170 |
Let me ask this of those $500 photographers:
1) How did you arrive at $500? You know, some people can't afford even that, so why not $300? Or $200?
2) "No one will pay more". Have you asked for more?
3) what are you giving them for that money - what 'value'? Just pics on CD? That's only half the job IMO, so of course they're only going to pay you 1/2 the price. Would you go to a restaurant and order dinner only to be told 'No, we don't sell drinks, or salads or dessert. You have to go someplace else for that'. Of course not.
Try this:
An album costs you under $100 (Tap Superior album, and if you truly have poor clients than this is what you need to sell instead of something very pricey) and a few hours time to order the stuff and put it together when it come in. What is that worth? $500 for 20 page 8x10 album? Easy.
What about printed proofs? Winkflash.com sells 4x6 prints for 12c ea, so 520 or so run $66. Boxes for them are $3. $70 cost and a $300 sale. Sell it to them for $150 if you feel greedy - walmart wants 19c a print and you're doing the work of ordering, boxing, etc so that is worth some markup.You could just tell them to use winkflash, but why not do it for them and charge something for your time? You will not burn in hell for that, I assure you ;P
What does all that mean to you....
Your way: $500 and a CD (Cost $2) - you work 8 hours and get $498.
The New Way: $500, you're getting that now....plus the album ($500) and proofs ($300)... $1300. Your cost is now about $140. You have $1160 for about 10 hours work.
Which is better? Seems like a no brainer to me.
Will everyone buy it? Unless you ask how will you know?
Are you being greedy? No. You are providing a service, a nice album and hundreds of prints for them to enjoy, pass out to friends and relatives and you've saved them the time and hassle of figuring out what to do with the CD you gave them.
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08/20/2007 06:44:20 PM · #171 |
(I do NOT claim to speak for  Prof_Fate, but hope that I CAN help bridge the gap...)
Lots of people here call me a 'nice guy' - others think I'm an ass... whatever, cause that isn't the point here. Neither is my opinion of ANYONE in this thread (many of you already KNOW i like & respect you), so don't take it personal.
Short and sweet (for once!), Chris IS trying to help by sharing BUSINESS information, plain and simple. Maybe he isn't very graceful about it, but should we impale him for being a little blunt? I think we could all use a little business advice - take what you NEED from the info & ignore the rest, JUST like other threads you don't like.
While I don't agree with everything he shares, I appreciate the fact that he has taken a lot of his time to share information that DOES help (even if ya need a grain 'o salt with it!) Stop thinking he is telling you an exact dollar figure, and listen to the theory.
BTW - I personally think lots of us SHOULD be charging more, including you Gayle, especially if you expect to support a household at some point. Why do you think all these people who do it for a living are trying to TELL you that it takes a lot? Just to be an ass? I don't think so. They are doing what all these wonderful photogs do - they HELP each other! Think about it with your brain for just a minute, instead of your emotions... I'm sure once you get past the touchy-feely stuff, you'll see that his intentions are good.
If I've pissed anyone off - sorry... just trying to help BOTH sides see the issue more clearly. Have a good night.
Billy
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08/20/2007 06:53:11 PM · #172 |
OK, I think I follow Chris' reasoning up to one point...
Yes, if the photogs used to charge $10K (hypothetically, don't quote me on price) a couple of years ago, and now you can find someone that can do it for $500, that's evolution of the market.
You are (I am too) typing this on a $700-800 worth computer. 20 years ago, the equivalent machine would cost me $500,000 at least.
What happened in between? 100s of other manufacturers showed up with different flavors of the same computer. Can IBM come out today and ask $20,000 for a PC? No. Are the others the same quality? Probably not, but was that enough to keep the prices up? No.
The plethora of photographers out there is bound to bring the prices of the wedding photography down. You cannot force everyone to keep the prices high just because you wish it was so.
Real world isn't such (you or someone else bashed communism in this thread, there it might have been possible to keep the constant rates, state-dictated for all photographers, in capitalism you cannot.)
So, fasten your seat belts, photography prices are coming down.
ps. I am not a wedding photog, neither cheap one nor expensive one. NOr I plan on doing it any time soon... |
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08/20/2007 06:59:09 PM · #173 |
| If any photographer reduces his price from $1000 to $500 to fill a day, I don't think he is selling himself or the industry short. He is not offering less of a product. Compare it to the airline industry, you get cheaper tickets if you book 2 weeks out no? If you have a last minute need for a ticket and pay twice the price, do you get twice as good a flight? Twice the amount of peanuts? Twice the chance of surviving the flight? No, you get the same exact thing. |
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08/20/2007 07:48:48 PM · #174 |
OK since my name has been brought up again I will explain my reasoning for what I did at my first wedding AGAIN! Honestly, I don't have to justify why I did what I did but I will to satisfy the interested parties.
This was my first official wedding. I sold it for $500 because it was my first, the couple were on a very tight budget and I was asked in short notice. I explained what my experience level was and they were fine with that I wanted to give me the chance. They had seen some of my work and felt confident I would do a fine job. In the end, the photos came out fine, the B&G were very happy with what they got and I finally got the experience I needed. Did I make mistakes, yes. Did those mistakes ruin the photos, no. Did the B&G order prints at the regular prices that I have set, yes. Alls well that ends well.
Now, my regular prices don't start at $500, its more that twice that.
As far as the help I have received, yes I did received some very good advise but I've also reached my limit on hearing the sermon from the pulpit from others. I have been told that I shouldn't have even THOUGHT of photographing a wedding. I have been told that just because I have a camera, doesn't make me a photographer and that I would ruin someones once in a life time occasion. I have had a camera in my hand since I was a child. From a polaroid, to a Pentax K1000 from the first 1 mp digital to soon have a brand new Olympus 510. So, I have learned alot, I have alot to learn but dang it, give me was respect and stop insulting my intelligence. I have a regular job until the photography out pays the paycheck I get now. I tried this once before and failed, took my licks and restructured how I created my business, started off slowly and so far, I'm doing pretty good. I know about business. I run a division for a company that does over 2 million dollars in sales a year just at my location. Yes I run it and I understand buying, selling, being a salesman and knowing your customer base. I understand marketing and knowing who your competition is. I deal with advertising and direct marketing on a daily basis. So give me a little credit. With both jobs, I do fine 'supporting my household'. So how I conduct my business, is my business and if I ever ask for advice again, I will choose wisely who to ask.
Don't tell me to just go take pictures Billy Bob's birthday, that's insulting. If you sugguest that I might go and shoot a friend's or relatives birthday celebration to get some more experience, I would probably consider it. There are 2 ways of coming across and being respectful and helpful and encouraging.
I'm not here to step on the so called "professionals" toes or bring a bad name to the photography business but there are some that would like to make it their sole business and I am one of them. We all started somewhere. This is where I started. And to me, I feel I'm succeeding, so far.
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08/20/2007 07:55:05 PM · #175 |
Um yeah. Nevermind
Message edited by author 2007-08-20 19:55:55. |
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