| Author | Thread |
|
|
08/17/2007 04:24:32 PM · #1 |
This has been building for a while, but it's become quite aggravating to me. It's the general attitude of some people around here that if you have never shot a weeding you shouldn't be doing it. Basically, if ya don't know how, you should never learn.
OK.. guess what. YOU haven't always shot weddings, you shot your first at some time. Yes, you may have seconded for someone, but that's not always an option.
Now here's the thing. When people ask about a wedding shoot, answer their question, don't tell them they shouldn't be doing it. The B&G have that say and if they trust the photog, that's a 3 party decision you aren't involved in. Just answer the question or leave it be. You aren't being helpful by telling they are a moron for trying.
Advice is one thing, being an ass is another. No, it doesn't take a 5D and all L glass to shoot weddings. It takes a photographer that knows his/her equipment, its limitations and how to best take advantage of what he/she has. If they don't know that point them to places where they can find that out.
We all learn by doing. So quit with the attitude and just be helpful.
|
|
|
|
08/17/2007 04:30:58 PM · #2 |
| I feel the same way about people that havent photographed underwater mating rituals of chinese river dolphins. I mean if youve never done it, you really have no place doing it, and you are probably just gonna make it bad for the rest of us by undercharging the dolphins and setting a precedent. |
|
|
|
08/17/2007 04:32:12 PM · #3 |
| I agree that its better to help, with appropriate cautions (not discouragements!) than it is to just tell someone they are in over their head and to forget it. |
|
|
|
08/17/2007 04:46:43 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
This has been building for a while, but it's become quite aggravating to me. It's the general attitude of some people around here that if you have never shot a weeding you shouldn't be doing it. Basically, if ya don't know how, you should never learn.
OK.. guess what. YOU haven't always shot weddings, you shot your first at some time. Yes, you may have seconded for someone, but that's not always an option.
Now here's the thing. When people ask about a wedding shoot, answer their question, don't tell them they shouldn't be doing it. The B&G have that say and if they trust the photog, that's a 3 party decision you aren't involved in. Just answer the question or leave it be. You aren't being helpful by telling they are a moron for trying.
Advice is one thing, being an ass is another. No, it doesn't take a 5D and all L glass to shoot weddings. It takes a photographer that knows his/her equipment, its limitations and how to best take advantage of what he/she has. If they don't know that point them to places where they can find that out.
We all learn by doing. So quit with the attitude and just be helpful. |
Most of the people asking the "I just agreed to do a wedding, what now?" question, have no idea what they've committed to. For that matter, many couples mistakenly think that just because cousin Billy-Bob takes such purty pitchers of flowers, he must be a great wedding photographer too.
In short, it's often a recipe for disaster.
At some point during the ceremony, cousin Billy-Bob will realize he's in way over his head, throw up, lose his cool and forget that his camera is set on ISO3200 and small-jpeg. He'll throw up again later when he realizes this.
The happy couple will not be happy with cousin Billy-Bob anymore when they see their grainy, noisy, VGA size pictures on the computer. They'll be even less thrilled when they try to print them.
In short, everyone will regret the whole arrangement and wish the couple had hired someone competent.
|
|
|
|
08/17/2007 04:47:49 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by frisca:
I agree that its better to help, with appropriate cautions (not discouragements!) than it is to just tell someone they are in over their head and to forget it. |
Often, telling them their in over their head and that they should forget it is the best advice. |
|
|
|
08/17/2007 05:41:26 PM · #6 |
If they are truly in over their heads.
I imagine if I had posted that I was doing a wedding with a Sony 707, in a barn, at night in December, with only "candlelight" and lanterns, I would have been told I was in over my head and to give it up. Instead, I was given advice by those that I did ask about how to use the flash effectively, etc. etc. etc.
The bride and the family were very pleased with the results.
Even today, there are those that scoff that I do weddings with *only* a 300 (well, two of them, actually), yet people keep asking me to shoot weddings (I *really* don't want to) AND they keep paying me money and referring me to their friends.
I've just learned not to ask for certain kinds of advice in an open general forum. :( |
|
|
|
08/17/2007 07:14:53 PM · #7 |
Alternatively, I find it disturbing the number of people who seem to have no qualms about throwing themselves into something they aren't ready for and doing it at an event that can't be redone. If you've never used a flash, don't know anything about ISO or DOF and just learned how to turn on the camera that you bought because someone in the forums told you to, do you really think that a once-in-a-lifetime, unrepeatable event is the place to get your feet wet? Clearly people do because I see them doing it all the time but I think that's horrible business practice. Not to mention incredibly selfish. Sure, everyone has to start somewhere. So start by assisting. Start by photographing Billy Bob's 8th birthday party. But have a realistic sense of your abilities and limitations. Simply owning a camera doesn't make you a professional photographer and getting DPC to tell you how to do it doesn't make you ready to be one.
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
At some point during the ceremony, cousin Billy-Bob will realize he's in way over his head, throw up, lose his cool and forget that his camera is set on ISO3200 and small-jpeg. He'll throw up again later when he realizes this. |
You forgot the part where Billy Bob will post a panicked thread to DPC, asking for help in enlarging and removing noise from 4700 small jpegs with ISO 3200. And another thread about his upset stomach and specific details about what he yakked.
|
|
|
|
08/17/2007 08:29:52 PM · #8 |
First of all, a big thank you to Leroy for sticking up for those of us who are new to doing weddings. I just did my first wedding on July 7th, 2007. I got a ton of advise, most good and informative and some I ignored because, like he stated, they just said don't do it since they thought I didn't know what the heck I was doing.
From that first wedding, I learn what I did wrong and how I can correct it. THAT is the most important thing I learned and that the next one will be even better. My b&g were very happy with all the photos. Some I totally admit, could have been done much better.
If you don't try, you can't succeed. I by no means think that just because I have a nice camera, that I'm a pro at it. I have a lot to learn but don't put me, or someone like me, down because we feel that we can do the job. I took the offer to do this wedding very seriously. I have been taught many lessons from the members of DPC. Treat me with respect and don't treat me like I'm a moron just because I want to better myself and make it in the photography business. We all have hills to climb and lessons to learn. I feel it was the advise from some of the members of DPC that solidfied the knowledge of photography I have now and helped me further my endeavor to become a professional in photography.
|
|
|
|
08/17/2007 09:30:22 PM · #9 |
Of course, everyone has to shoot their "first" wedding. But mk is right...a wedding is no place to learn the basics of photography or to learn your camera equipment. You should already be well versed in the do's and don't's before you attempt something that could potentially have heartbreaking results for a young couple. However, if you're comfortable with your abilities and you know what you can and can't do with your camera, there is absolutely no reason you shouldn't shoot a wedding.
My advice to someone wanting to try wedding photography is to PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE! Are you and your friends going out to a club? Take your camera! Practice with low light or changing light situations. Your family having a picnic in the glaring sun? Take your camera! Practice getting shots of people in the crowd...eating, talking, laughing. Practice metering on someone wearing a bright white piece of clothing. Make notes of your camera settings. Invite your friends over and practice portraits...give them a disk with the print files as a thank you gift. Buy a couple of "Bride" or similar magazines and take a look at the photos to see what the current style is.
As far as pricing goes, that's up to you and whatever you feel comfortable charging. My first wedding was shot for a friend and I shot it for free. All she did was pay for the prints. Every time I shot a wedding, I increased my prices a bit. Do some research online and see what other photographers in your area are charging. Then decide what your time and your experience is worth. As you gain more experience, raise your prices a bit.
So, those are just a few rambling thoughts from me. Shooting a wedding is extremely hard and exhausting work. It can be a nightmare or it can be a very rewarding experience. Good luck!
Message edited by author 2007-08-17 21:32:01.
|
|
|
|
08/17/2007 09:57:54 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
From that first wedding, I learn what I did wrong and how I can correct it. THAT is the most important thing I learned and that the next one will be even better.
|
Delivering great wedding pictures that exceed the couples expectations is the most important thing. You should absolutely know how to do that before you shoot a wedding all by yourself. I'm all for learning from your experiences, but there really shouldn't be any major photography learning moments during someone else's once in a lifetime event.
Message edited by author 2007-08-17 22:00:07. |
|
|
|
08/18/2007 09:36:55 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
From that first wedding, I learn what I did wrong and how I can correct it. THAT is the most important thing I learned and that the next one will be even better.
|
Delivering great wedding pictures that exceed the couples expectations is the most important thing. You should absolutely know how to do that before you shoot a wedding all by yourself. I'm all for learning from your experiences, but there really shouldn't be any major photography learning moments during someone else's once in a lifetime event. |
Since you like to pick and choose what I said, I also said that the advise that I received from DPC members solidfied the knowledge that I already have. I didn't go into this wedding blind and not knowing what I was doing. I was nervous and wanted everything to go well and it did. I appreciate the advise that Leroy and others give. My B&G were very happy with what they received. All I ask is give me and persons like me, the benefit of doubt that maybe I do know what I'm doing and if I ask for help or advise, be helpful. My mother always said, "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all". If you feel that someone is over their head, then give good advise that will help them, stop putting them down. Some comments made here are just insulting.
|
|
|
|
08/18/2007 09:27:03 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
From that first wedding, I learn what I did wrong and how I can correct it. THAT is the most important thing I learned and that the next one will be even better.
|
Delivering great wedding pictures that exceed the couples expectations is the most important thing. You should absolutely know how to do that before you shoot a wedding all by yourself. I'm all for learning from your experiences, but there really shouldn't be any major photography learning moments during someone else's once in a lifetime event. |
And honestly, its only 50% of Americas once in a lifetime event. Who only gets married once now a days anyway? |
|
|
|
08/18/2007 09:46:13 PM · #13 |
Ha! :-) Damn good point, AJ... LOL
I'm not advocating people go out shooting weddings with a cell phone... but it doesn't take a $8,000 lens on a $3,000 camera to produce good results, as many people around here seem to think.
It's also not rocket science. Yes, you want to give the B&G nice photos, but today is a day and age where a lot of people are skimping on the photo budget anyway (the ones I choose not to work for). I think many would prefer a inexperienced photographer, if it costs them less.
Unlike others around here, I'm not at all threatened by newbie photographers under-cutting me on pricing and such. They service the customers I'd turn away. I want to encourage those photogs and let them get their feet wet.
|
|
|
|
08/18/2007 10:28:22 PM · #14 |
| Yeah Leeroy the 15 year old pregnant bride in Alabama can't afford high prices!!! J/K |
|
|
|
08/19/2007 12:54:34 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Yeah Leeroy the 15 year old pregnant bride in Alabama can't afford high prices!!! J/K |
They can't afford teeth either, but a pack of Marlboros or a can of Skoal is never gone without... LOL
|
|
|
|
08/19/2007 10:41:49 AM · #16 |
|
|
|
08/19/2007 10:51:10 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by jonnienye:
good rant... |
LOL! good connection with your profile picture. 
Message edited by author 2007-08-19 10:52:13. |
|
|
|
08/19/2007 10:55:02 AM · #18 |
| I just love your rants :) hehe |
|
|
|
08/19/2007 11:04:34 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
From that first wedding, I learn what I did wrong and how I can correct it. THAT is the most important thing I learned... |
Ooohh boy that sentence really threw me....
I'm not sure what got his thread started but I would be one pissed off MoFo if someone was "learning how to do it right", for the next time at my once in a lifetime event. I think Spaz is correct in saying that "the most important thing" is to give people great images.
Weddings are NOT the proper learning venue unless the B&G know exactly what you are capable of and are willing to settle for whatever goes.
And as mk said Billy Bobs B-day is probably the best place to learn how to use a flash and find what shooting an event is like before you blow someones wedding shots. The internet is full of horror stories of amateur wedding photographer screw-ups. Good advice is probably steering someone from becoming one of those stories.
Message edited by author 2007-08-19 11:23:10. |
|
|
|
08/19/2007 11:07:57 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
From that first wedding, I learn what I did wrong and how I can correct it. THAT is the most important thing I learned... |
exactly what was it you learned?
|
|
|
|
08/19/2007 11:51:07 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
And as mk said Billy Bobs B-day is probably the best place to learn how to use a flash and find what shooting an event is like before you blow someones wedding shots. The internet is full of horror stories of amateur wedding photographer screw-ups. Good advice is probably steering someone from becoming one of those stories. |
I agree entirely that practice is good and parries are great venues to practice. But some don't stop to give that advice or even ask if they have done such, just say, "You have no idea what you are doing, so don't do it."
FWIW, if a B&G are willing to hire a photog that doesn't have a portfolio to show them, they aren't exactly expecting topshelf art.
|
|
|
|
08/19/2007 12:01:43 PM · #22 |
What the h&ll is this? A rant about photography? What is that doing here?
Actually, I see the same theme with wedding photography happening on other sites and forums. I've also seen posts from brides complaining about their wedding photograher who they found on the cheap.
You get what you pay for.
(armchair wedding photographer) |
|
|
|
08/19/2007 01:13:48 PM · #23 |
I've learned that if I'm ever asked to shoot a wedding, I certainly won't mention it here.
:-) |
|
|
|
08/19/2007 02:42:58 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
From that first wedding, I learn what I did wrong and how I can correct it. THAT is the most important thing I learned and that the next one will be even better.
|
Delivering great wedding pictures that exceed the couples expectations is the most important thing. You should absolutely know how to do that before you shoot a wedding all by yourself. I'm all for learning from your experiences, but there really shouldn't be any major photography learning moments during someone else's once in a lifetime event. |
Since you like to pick and choose what I said, I also said that the advise that I received from DPC members solidfied the knowledge that I already have. I didn't go into this wedding blind and not knowing what I was doing. I was nervous and wanted everything to go well and it did. I appreciate the advise that Leroy and others give. My B&G were very happy with what they received. All I ask is give me and persons like me, the benefit of doubt that maybe I do know what I'm doing and if I ask for help or advise, be helpful. My mother always said, "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all". If you feel that someone is over their head, then give good advise that will help them, stop putting them down. Some comments made here are just insulting. |
Often the best advice for all concerned is to walk away from shooting a wedding. Yet, you and so many others feel that if someone can pick up a camera and figure out which button to press they are ready and for me, or anyone else, to suggest that they are anything other than fully qualified to shoot a wedding is a personal insult to them and evidently to your mother as well.
Message edited by author 2007-08-19 14:45:11. |
|
|
|
08/19/2007 04:19:45 PM · #25 |
You want to shoot a wedding for free? Why? No really, why? Your ego perhaps? Cause it's 'fun'?
Will you cut my grass, wash my car or cook my dinner for free? What, that kind of work isn't fun? People do those things (gardening, car stuff and cooking) for hobbies too...perhaps the budding bakers here would do the weding cake for free, or cater the meal for cost?
Is it becuase the B&G can't afford it? Then that's charity work and there are a lot more deserving people than that new couple IMO.
//www.operationphotorescue.com/, //www.oplove.org/, //www.nowilaymedowntosleep.org/
I've seen brides spend $10-15 thousand on a wedding only to have their little sister capture this once in a lifetime deal on a P&S 'because they can't afford a photographer'. No, it's because they don't place much value on photography.
They want you to do for free what they aren't will to pay for. Feeling used? Perhaps you should be.
Lets approach if from another perspective shall we? Whether they admit or not, realize it or not, what do they expect for their wedding photos? They expect to get what they've seen all their lives - the photos in the magazines and ads for bridal dresses, weddings, etc. Perhaps they expect what mom got 30 years ago - MF posed shots. What they are not expecting is snapshots, no posing, grainy shots with direct flash, etc.
In case you've never noticed, weddings are emotional days. There may be a 'plan' for the day, but who oversees and runs the day? Keeps things on schedule, etc? Often the photographer.
How do you hold a bouquet? Pin a flower on a tux? tie a tie? How do you cut the cake? I get asked these questions, and more, at almost every wedding. I know the answers and that makes their day, and their pictures, better. Pose, um, fat chics, so they look 10 pounds lighter? Expose a white dress and black tux outside in direct sun? Pose 30 people? It's all part of why you hire a pro - for the knowledge and experience as well as 'the gear'. Anyone can buy gear, most can learn to use it rather well - but there is still that experience bit that only comes one way.
Was I or any wedding photog born that way? No, of course not. And if you want to shoot a wedding go for it - it's just a bit annoying when those threads come up and I hear 'they can't afford it' is often the first thing said. Why not go as guest and enjoy the day? If they were a friend they'd not ask you to work 6 to 8 hours, now would they? And when a pro suggests you don't have the equipment knowledge or experiece to shoot a wedding it's not beacuse we're snobs - it's because we've done it and KNOW what pitfalls there are how to avoid most of them. And also because it's not possible to teach one how to handle everything a wedding day can throw at you in a few forum posts -= there are many books out there and seminars and classes, etc.
For you it may seem like fun - but to the bride it's a once in a lifetime event. Everyone expects the best the day before and 95% of the time it all turns out fine...but just be part of the 5% that doesn't and see what happens to your friendship.
|
|
