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08/16/2007 02:13:29 PM · #201 |
Originally posted by chip_k:
"The only trouble is where to store spent radioactive fuel."
That's kinda like saying, "The only prolem with having a pet tiger is that it might eat you."
;) |
There has to be a solution to radioactive waste. If not now, there will be. I always just thought, why don't they shoot it into the sun? (kidding of course)
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08/16/2007 02:16:44 PM · #202 |
Something to consider on temperature data; temperatures taken in cities, which are usually heat pockets thanks to cars, blacktop and concrete are not accurate. Anyone thatâs driven a motorcycle or convertible from rural to urban after the sun has gone down can attest to that. Iâve seen 5-10 degree temp differences in less then a mile going from rural to urban AZ.
Most cities tend to grow, adding more concrete, bigger buildings, more blacktop, which means they become bigger/hotter heat pockets. Thus, comparing the temperature in the middle of Houston today with 1930 is not really comparing apples and apples.
Yeah, the hot pocket effect may contribute to the current warming we might be in, but looking at temperatures taken solely from weather stations in urban areas it will give you an inaccurate warming trend. Temperatures taken for comparison purposes should be taken solely in urban areas, outside of hot pockets to eliminate outside influences.
Now for the record, I don't know if all or even most weather stations are in urban areas, but it's a factor I hope they take into effect when they make their purdy charts.
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08/16/2007 02:21:35 PM · #203 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Something to consider on temperature data; temperatures taken in cities, which are usually heat pockets thanks to cars, blacktop and concrete are not accurate. Anyone thatâs driven a motorcycle or convertible from rural to urban after the sun has gone down can attest to that. Iâve seen 5-10 degree temp differences in less then a mile going from rural to urban AZ.
Most cities tend to grow, adding more concrete, bigger buildings, more blacktop, which means they become bigger/hotter heat pockets. Thus, comparing the temperature in the middle of Houston today with 1930 is not really comparing apples and apples.
Yeah, the hot pocket effect may contribute to the current warming we might be in, but looking at temperatures taken solely from weather stations in urban areas it will give you an inaccurate warming trend. Temperatures taken for comparison purposes should be taken solely in urban areas, outside of hot pockets to eliminate outside influences.
Now for the record, I don't know if all or even most weather stations are in urban areas, but it's a factor I hope they take into effect when they make their purdy charts. |
Their computations take the urban warming effect into account. |
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08/16/2007 02:23:42 PM · #204 |
HAHA! You have got to be kidding me! I think we found the source of global warming! Itâs been next to that AC unit for 8 years!
//gallery.surfacestations.org/main.php?g2_itemId=3891
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08/16/2007 02:25:37 PM · #205 |
Originally posted by chip_k:
Their computations take the urban warming effect into account. |
As a math guy, when you add a factor to correct a corruption of data your data is now corrupted in two ways. |
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08/16/2007 02:29:06 PM · #206 |
Originally posted by SamDoe1:
There has to be a solution to radioactive waste. |
Yeah, it's called fusion :) The problem with fusion is that's it's unbelievablt hot that they can't use it in anything but nuclear weapons now.
"Radioactive wastes from the operation of a fusion plant should not require isolation from the environment for a geological timespan and therefore should not constitute a burden for future generations." |
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08/16/2007 02:33:06 PM · #207 |
I didn't know that they had successfully sustained a fusion reaction in a weapons system or otherwise. I agree that fusion is the way of the future...but I was under the impression that it hadn't been done yet. And the unbelievably hot problem can and should be solved by magnetic containment.
[sarcasm]What about a matter-antimatter reactor? Pure energy, no waste![/sarcasm]
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08/16/2007 02:34:25 PM · #208 |
//www.norcalblogs.com/watts/weather_stations/
even more cases of very poorly located weather stations.
I don't know how they handle this in the computations, but I can tell you without a doubt they are not 100% accurate. Thus, the changes in temperature is most likely well within the margin of error of the calculation! |
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08/16/2007 02:43:30 PM · #209 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
As a math guy, when you add a factor to correct a corruption of data your data is now corrupted in two ways. |
You're ruining all prospects for the success of your carbon offset business :)
Seriously, here's a page with a lot of weather astation and math talk, and as a Math-magician, you'tl be able to understand a lot of it better than I can ;)
Here's one quote from the text:
"...the fact that the recent warming is seen in the oceans, the atmosphere, in Arctic sea ice retreat, in glacier recession, earlier springs, reduced snow cover etc., so even if all met stations were contaminated (which they aren't), global warming would still be "unequivocal"." |
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08/16/2007 02:46:01 PM · #210 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
[url]I don't know how they handle this in the computations, but I can tell you without a doubt they are not 100% accurate. Thus, the changes in temperature is most likely well within the margin of error of the calculation! |
"It has been estimated that the mean anomaly in the Northern hemisphere at the monthly scale only has around 60 degrees of freedom - that is, 60 well-place stations would be sufficient to give a reasonable estimate of the large scale month to month changes. Currently, although they are not necessarily ideally placed, there are thousands of stations - many times more than would be theoretically necessary."
By the way Math guy, what's a "mean anomaly?"
:) |
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08/16/2007 03:01:20 PM · #211 |
Originally posted by chip_k:
By the way Math guy, what's a "mean anomaly?"
:) |
average of non normal incidents??? |
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08/16/2007 03:09:15 PM · #212 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Now for the record, I don't know if all or even most weather stations are in urban areas, but it's a factor I hope they take into effect when they make their purdy charts. |
A lot of the information/data on climate change comes from satellite data, not from ground-based weather stations at all.
The following are all from NASA's Earth Observatory site:
(It's also a great site for all kinds of interesting/pretty pictures of the Earth from space!)
There's a Change in Rain Around Desert Cities
Urban Heat Islands Make Cities Greener (not necessarily a good thing)
Global Warming Q & A
Global Warming Update. Follow the links at the bottom for more articles on how scientists model the climate, effects of climate change, etc.
There was a recent story that the average surface water temperature of Lake Tahoe has risen about four degrees.
Shrinking Lake Superior Also Heating Up
August 3 â Lake Superior, the world's largest freshwater lake, has been shrinking for years - and now it appears to be getting hotter. (National Geographic News)
Does human activity affect the weather and/or climate?
Contrails over the midwest US
Contrails over the Rhone Valley (France)
NASA scientists use empty skies to study climate change |
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08/16/2007 03:09:53 PM · #213 |
Either way, they guess at a number to correct the error for urban growth and AC units next to stations. If they guess wrong one way, we are cooling, if they guess wrong the other way we are warming, if they get it right, who knows?
THus, temp data is only as accurate as that guess, or estimate, or fudge factor, or mathmatically calculated mean anomally factor.
And, since their number is clearly an estimate (since they have a fudge factor applied) it should include a margin of error. does it? |
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08/16/2007 03:10:37 PM · #214 |
Wow, got any more links?
Edit to ask
How many satalites were up in 1934?
Message edited by author 2007-08-16 15:12:41. |
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08/16/2007 03:13:50 PM · #215 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
average of non normal incidents??? |
All I could find Googling was stuff I don't understand ;) That sounds right though! Maybe they actually mean the "anomaly FOR the mean." |
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08/16/2007 03:19:33 PM · #216 |
Originally posted by chip_k:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
average of non normal incidents??? |
All I could find Googling was stuff I don't understand ;) That sounds right though! Maybe they actually mean the "anomaly FOR the mean." |
well, mean is average and anomaly is a non normal incident. I'm not sure how you take an average of non-normal incidents??? If there are enough to take an average, isn't it normal? My best guess is that (using made up numbers here) 95% of stations show a rise of .03 to .07 degrees over the last 20 years and 5% show rises or falls outside that range, so we ignore those, or put a lower weight on their signifigance. |
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08/16/2007 03:20:36 PM · #217 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Wow, got any more links?
Edit to ask
How many satalites were up in 1934? |
They couldn't even spell satellite in 1934. Sputnik went up in 1956, which was when Uncle Sam spotted that Russian school kids new more maths and physics than their US counterparts. Who cares? Coke n candy wins 'em round. |
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08/16/2007 03:26:01 PM · #218 |
| we've already covered spelling. |
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08/16/2007 03:31:16 PM · #219 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
How many satalites were up in 1934? |
One, the moon. Unless you're talking about man made satellites...
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08/16/2007 03:32:27 PM · #220 |
[CapMag.com] From a Space.com news item on NASAâs Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) spacecraft:
NASAâs Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) spacecraft has spotted new gullies and a fresh crater â in astronomical terms â etched into the red planetâs surface, mission scientists said Tuesday. Now in its eighth year in orbit around Mars, the MGS spacecraft found the new gullies cutting through a sand dune, as well as numerous other signs that the planet is far from a static, unchanging world. â[The gullies] are probably not the result of water action on the sand dune,â said Michael Malin, principal investigator for the Mars Orbiter Camera aboard MGS, during teleconference with reporters. âWhat we think is going on here is that carbon dioxide snow has been incorporated into the sand dune.â As the snow melts and evaporates into gas, it allows the sand around it to fluidize and run down the dune slope, Malin added.
[..] The spacecraft also observed a gradual evaporation of carbon dioxide ice in one of Marsâ polar caps, pointing to a slowly changing Mars climate. âThey way these polar pits are retreating is absolutely astounding,â Mustard said. But like the rockfalls, researchers were unable to account for the gradual climate change. âWhy is Mars warmer today that it was in the past, we really have no way of knowing why,â Malin said. ["Mars Probe Finds New Gullies, Crater at Red Planet"]
So Mars is having Global Warming as Well. Last I checked, no SUV's there. What's the connection between Mars and Earth? Oh yea, that big yellow sun in the center of our solar system. Our sun is a variable star. Its output flucuates over time. Fortunately it doesn't flucuate as much as many stars do. So maybe the sun's output is a fraction higher now than it was. Humans do well with warm weather. Global cooling would be a real problem. We will not do well if another ice age comes. Just look at Mars.
Edit to add...Last paragraph is mine
Message edited by author 2007-08-16 15:33:45. |
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08/16/2007 03:41:17 PM · #221 |
Originally posted by cloudsme:
[CapMag.com] From a Space.com news item on NASAâs Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) spacecraft:
NASAâs Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) spacecraft has spotted new gullies and a fresh crater â in astronomical terms â etched into the red planetâs surface, mission scientists said Tuesday. Now in its eighth year in orbit around Mars, the MGS spacecraft found the new gullies cutting through a sand dune, as well as numerous other signs that the planet is far from a static, unchanging world. â[The gullies] are probably not the result of water action on the sand dune,â said Michael Malin, principal investigator for the Mars Orbiter Camera aboard MGS, during teleconference with reporters. âWhat we think is going on here is that carbon dioxide snow has been incorporated into the sand dune.â As the snow melts and evaporates into gas, it allows the sand around it to fluidize and run down the dune slope, Malin added.
[..] The spacecraft also observed a gradual evaporation of carbon dioxide ice in one of Marsâ polar caps, pointing to a slowly changing Mars climate. âThey way these polar pits are retreating is absolutely astounding,â Mustard said. But like the rockfalls, researchers were unable to account for the gradual climate change. âWhy is Mars warmer today that it was in the past, we really have no way of knowing why,â Malin said. ["Mars Probe Finds New Gullies, Crater at Red Planet"]
So Mars is having Global Warming as Well. Last I checked, no SUV's there. What's the connection between Mars and Earth? Oh yea, that big yellow sun in the center of our solar system. Our sun is a variable star. Its output flucuates over time. Fortunately it doesn't flucuate as much as many stars do. So maybe the sun's output is a fraction higher now than it was. Humans do well with warm weather. Global cooling would be a real problem. We will not do well if another ice age comes. Just look at Mars.
Edit to add...Last paragraph is mine |
Okay, I'm not even going to touch the flawed logic behind, "Mars is warming and they don't know why so Earth and Mars are both warming from the SUN!!!"
There's a lot of this stuff that's been covered all ready. Let's not start this thread over!!!! ;)
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Temperature rises 'not caused by Sun' |
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08/16/2007 04:16:29 PM · #222 |
Originally posted by chip_k:
Originally posted by cloudsme:
[CapMag.com] From a Space.com news item on NASAâs Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) spacecraft:
NASAâs Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) spacecraft has spotted new gullies and a fresh crater â in astronomical terms â etched into the red planetâs surface, mission scientists said Tuesday. Now in its eighth year in orbit around Mars, the MGS spacecraft found the new gullies cutting through a sand dune, as well as numerous other signs that the planet is far from a static, unchanging world. â[The gullies] are probably not the result of water action on the sand dune,â said Michael Malin, principal investigator for the Mars Orbiter Camera aboard MGS, during teleconference with reporters. âWhat we think is going on here is that carbon dioxide snow has been incorporated into the sand dune.â As the snow melts and evaporates into gas, it allows the sand around it to fluidize and run down the dune slope, Malin added.
[..] The spacecraft also observed a gradual evaporation of carbon dioxide ice in one of Marsâ polar caps, pointing to a slowly changing Mars climate. âThey way these polar pits are retreating is absolutely astounding,â Mustard said. But like the rockfalls, researchers were unable to account for the gradual climate change. âWhy is Mars warmer today that it was in the past, we really have no way of knowing why,â Malin said. ["Mars Probe Finds New Gullies, Crater at Red Planet"]
So Mars is having Global Warming as Well. Last I checked, no SUV's there. What's the connection between Mars and Earth? Oh yea, that big yellow sun in the center of our solar system. Our sun is a variable star. Its output flucuates over time. Fortunately it doesn't flucuate as much as many stars do. So maybe the sun's output is a fraction higher now than it was. Humans do well with warm weather. Global cooling would be a real problem. We will not do well if another ice age comes. Just look at Mars.
Edit to add...Last paragraph is mine |
Okay, I'm not even going to touch the flawed logic behind, "Mars is warming and they don't know why so Earth and Mars are both warming from the SUN!!!"
There's a lot of this stuff that's been covered all ready. Let's not start this thread over!!!! ;)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Temperature rises 'not caused by Sun' |
From above:
Mike Lockwood, a physicist at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory in the UK, said: "It is absolutely clear that the sun is nothing to do with the recent warming.
Sorry, that doesn't sway me at all. I read a recent article that said we weren't really going to see global warming until 2009. How funny. Not until after the election. So when it is cold in 2008, we still have to worry because it will be warm in 2009. Just vote like its too warm. This is just politics.
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08/16/2007 04:36:47 PM · #223 |
Originally posted by cloudsme:
I read a recent article that said we weren't really going to see global warming until 2009. How funny. Not until after the election. So when it is cold in 2008, we still have to worry because it will be warm in 2009. Just vote like its too warm. This is just politics. |
Can you post a link to the article? I'd like to read it. I'm ALWAYS open to new ideas and it would be good to see it.
Message edited by author 2007-08-16 16:37:10. |
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08/16/2007 05:16:17 PM · #224 |
Originally posted by chip_k:
Originally posted by cloudsme:
I read a recent article that said we weren't really going to see global warming until 2009. How funny. Not until after the election. So when it is cold in 2008, we still have to worry because it will be warm in 2009. Just vote like its too warm. This is just politics. |
Can you post a link to the article? I'd like to read it. I'm ALWAYS open to new ideas and it would be good to see it. |
//www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0837368420070809?feedType=RSS&rpc=22&sp=true |
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08/16/2007 05:28:35 PM · #225 |
Why would scientists in Britain care enough about the 2008 election in the US to change their results?
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