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08/14/2007 10:27:14 PM · #126 |
| Lets say global warming is as bad as Al says it is, then we are all doomed anyway because there is absolutely no way to reverse it. (Asides from sending him money) Now that I think about this, it is funny that we are causing the earth to warm, yet there is no way that we could cause it to be cool. We have only the power to destroy so who cares we are all doomed. I think I will get an SUV after all. |
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08/14/2007 11:06:52 PM · #127 |
"The Weather Makers" by Tim Flannery
I urge everyone to read this book, it may change your views.
He is what Tony Blair said after reading it:
âClimate change is perhaps the most challenging collective action problem the world has faced. Almost uniquely, The Weather Makers provides insights not only into the history, the science and politics of climate change, but also the actions people can take now that will make a difference. Only through understanding can problems be properly addressed and solved. All who read The Weather Makers will be left wiser and able to appreciate how fragile our climate is and how it is this generation who must act to protect it.â âTony Blair, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
For other reviews try here
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08/14/2007 11:16:12 PM · #128 |
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08/14/2007 11:36:02 PM · #129 |
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08/14/2007 11:36:55 PM · #130 |
why do I think we are not a major contributor to global warming, in my own words. And I'm not a DJ or a journalist if that makes my opinion worth any more.
1. The earth has warmed and cooled and warmed and cooled thousands of times before we were here and scientists still can't even come to a consensus on what killed the dinos, but apparently they know SUVs raised the temp of the planet a degree or two since the 70's despite the fact that their data over the last 140 years is questionable at best and says the earth has actually cooled the last few years, and a lot of them don't seem to agree with the consensus.
2. Water vapor accounts for about 99% of the cooling of the earth, while CO2 accounts for less then 1%. Add to that the fact that we are responsible for maybe 5% of the CO2 out there. Thus we may have an effect on less then .05% of the atmosphere's cooling properties.
3. If you gave every person on the planet one square yard to stand in, and then had them all stand next to each other, you could fit them all in the state of Delaware. TO put that in perspective, if the earth were a basketball (or soccer ball) all the people on the planet would fit in the hole you use to fill the ball. To think that we can have a major impact on the planet is just arrogant on our part.
4. While the artic peninsula is melting, the actual artic ice pack is getting thicker daily, as is the Greenland ice self.
5. Because of global warming, last year and this year was supposedly going to be big hurricane years according to the expert scientist, the biggest we'd seen in awhile. Last year was amazingly light and this year seems about the same.
6. Al Gore is an idiot, so is Leonardo Decrapio.
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08/14/2007 11:44:47 PM · #131 |
Never mind.
I'm not going to bother refuting claims that have been refuted repeatedly in scientifically valid, peer-reviewed research.
Message edited by author 2007-08-15 00:07:56.
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08/14/2007 11:45:48 PM · #132 |
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08/15/2007 12:11:43 AM · #133 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
Before you claim you would, I'd like to hear what evidence would convince you. |
Irrefutable evidence, other then a highly skeptical consensus from a group infamous for being wrong, that says my 6 points are incorrect. |
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08/15/2007 12:15:08 AM · #134 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
why do I think we are not a major contributor to global warming, in my own words. And I'm not a DJ or a journalist if that makes my opinion worth any more.
1. The earth has warmed and cooled and warmed and cooled thousands of times before we were here and scientists still can't even come to a consensus on what killed the dinos, but apparently they know SUVs raised the temp of the planet a degree or two since the 70's despite the fact that their data over the last 140 years is questionable at best and says the earth has actually cooled the last few years, and a lot of them don't seem to agree with the consensus.
2. Water vapor accounts for about 99% of the cooling of the earth, while CO2 accounts for less then 1%. Add to that the fact that we are responsible for maybe 5% of the CO2 out there. Thus we may have an effect on less then .05% of the atmosphere's cooling properties.
3. If you gave every person on the planet one square yard to stand in, and then had them all stand next to each other, you could fit them all in the state of Delaware. TO put that in perspective, if the earth were a basketball (or soccer ball) all the people on the planet would fit in the hole you use to fill the ball. To think that we can have a major impact on the planet is just arrogant on our part.
4. While the artic peninsula is melting, the actual artic ice pack is getting thicker daily, as is the Greenland ice self.
5. Because of global warming, last year and this year was supposedly going to be big hurricane years according to the expert scientist, the biggest we'd seen in awhile. Last year was amazingly light and this year seems about the same.
6. Al Gore is an idiot, so is Leonardo Decrapio. |
I value your OPINION, it's your FACTS that I"m concerned about. Can you please cite the references for:
The Greenland and Arctic ice shelves getting THICKER.
Any valid study claming that Global Warming caused the recent busy hurricane seasons.
"Water vapor accounts for about 99% of the cooling of the earth, while CO2 accounts for less then 1%."
We are responsible for maybe 5% of the CO2 out there.
I'm not arguing Point 6. :) |
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08/15/2007 12:15:50 AM · #135 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
...their data over the last 140 years is questionable at best and says the earth has actually cooled the last few years...
4. ...While the artic peninsula is melting, the actual artic ice pack is getting thicker daily, as is the Greenland ice self... |
Can you provide some sources for these two statements which seem the easiest to refute? |
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08/15/2007 12:17:05 AM · #136 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by slickchik:
Al Gore IS an idiot! |
Good thing Bush the Rocket Scientist won! My goodness, we'd probably be involved in a stupid protracted war or something if Gore had won. |
Bush IS an Idiot! |
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08/15/2007 12:18:41 AM · #137 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
...their data over the last 140 years is questionable at best and says the earth has actually cooled the last few years...
4. ...While the artic peninsula is melting, the actual artic ice pack is getting thicker daily, as is the Greenland ice self... |
Can you provide some sources for these two statements which seem the easiest to refute? |
It was 104 F (40 C) today in Houston. Just saying. ;-) |
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08/15/2007 12:26:06 AM · #138 |
I took a piss on a glacier today. Take that, Al Gore!
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08/15/2007 12:29:44 AM · #139 |
Originally posted by option:
I took a piss on a glacier today. Take that, Al Gore! |
Our glaciers have all melted. I can't do that anymore. |
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08/15/2007 12:32:33 AM · #140 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
why do I think we are not a major contributor to global warming, in my own words. And I'm not a DJ or a journalist if that makes my opinion worth any more.
1. The earth has warmed and cooled and warmed and cooled thousands of times before we were here and scientists still can't even come to a consensus on what killed the dinos, but apparently they know SUVs raised the temp of the planet a degree or two since the 70's despite the fact that their data over the last 140 years is questionable at best and says the earth has actually cooled the last few years, and a lot of them don't seem to agree with the consensus.
2. Water vapor accounts for about 99% of the cooling of the earth, while CO2 accounts for less then 1%. Add to that the fact that we are responsible for maybe 5% of the CO2 out there. Thus we may have an effect on less then .05% of the atmosphere's cooling properties.
3. If you gave every person on the planet one square yard to stand in, and then had them all stand next to each other, you could fit them all in the state of Delaware. TO put that in perspective, if the earth were a basketball (or soccer ball) all the people on the planet would fit in the hole you use to fill the ball. To think that we can have a major impact on the planet is just arrogant on our part.
4. While the artic peninsula is melting, the actual artic ice pack is getting thicker daily, as is the Greenland ice self.
5. Because of global warming, last year and this year was supposedly going to be big hurricane years according to the expert scientist, the biggest we'd seen in awhile. Last year was amazingly light and this year seems about the same.
6. Al Gore is an idiot, so is Leonardo Decrapio. |
To refute a few:
1 - It would not take all that much of a change in global temperature to make the planet inhospitable to people. Yes, the earth has had cycles of warmth and cooling, but it's extremely unlikely humans would have surived the extremes of those cycles. There is also a strong correlation between the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and global temperature. Feel free to actually look at some data yourself, instead of repeating soundbytes from FoxNews.
2 - Take a look over here for some perspective on sophistry.
3 - How is this relevant at all? It's possible for a small amount of something (people, in your example) to be fatal to an envioronment. How much mercury do you think your body could handle?
4 - Do you have a reference for this?
5 - In Scientific American, they looked at this very question. Last year was a La Nina, or a normal cyclical cooling. Despite this, the ocean's average temperature have risen a degree. If you don't think that's significant, review what happened when hurricane Katrina passed over the warm waters in the Gulf of Mexico (I'll save you a search: it went from category 1 to category 5). The number of storms may remain the same, but the intensity of them will increase.
6 - In other news, skeptics have refuted those lying liar scientists to make such claims as "smoking doesn't cause cancer," "secondhand smoke is completely harmless," and "the earth is the center of the solar system." Just because you keep repeating false claims doesn't make them correct. |
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08/15/2007 12:34:00 AM · #141 |
| whew, nice to have some fresh blood in here to carry on the cause... :) |
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08/15/2007 12:34:35 AM · #142 |
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08/15/2007 12:36:55 AM · #143 |
That "documentary" is a joke.
Sorry for the repost but some people are getting to the theatre late ;)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Well, it didn't take very long to find SERIOUS issues with THAT movie!
My words were twisted in global warming documentary: expert
Temperature rises 'not caused by Sun'
Channel 4 used seriously flawed data on which to base their programme
Featured scientists: "gap was simply filled in with artificial data for the program"
Message edited by author 2007-08-15 00:39:41. |
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08/15/2007 12:40:25 AM · #144 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
4. While the artic peninsula is melting, the actual artic ice pack is getting thicker daily ... |
Uh huh ...
===============
Analysts See âSimply Incredibleâ Shrinking of Floating Ice in the Arctic
By ANDREW C. REVKIN
Published: August 10, 2007 )[n]NY Times[/b])
The area of floating ice in the Arctic has shrunk more this summer than in any other summer since satellite tracking began in 1979, and it has reached that record point a month before the annual ice pullback typically peaks, experts said yesterday.
The cause is probably a mix of natural fluctuations, like unusually sunny conditions in June and July, and long-term warming from heat-trapping greenhouse gases and sooty particles accumulating in the air, according to several scientists.
William L. Chapman, who monitors the region at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign and posted a Web report on the ice retreat yesterday, said that only an abrupt change in conditions could prevent far more melting before the 24-hour sun of the boreal summer set in September. âThe melting rate during June and July this year was simply incredible,â Mr. Chapman said. âAnd then youâve got this exposed black ocean soaking up sunlight and you wonder what, if anything, could cause it to reverse course.â
Mark Serreze, a sea-ice expert at the National Snow and Ice Data Center in Boulder, Colo., said his centerâs estimates differed somewhat from those of the Illinois team, and by the ice centerâs reckoning the retreat had not surpassed the satellite-era record set in 2005. But it was close even by the centerâs calculations, he said, adding that it is almost certain that by September, there will be more open water in the Arctic than has been seen for a long time. Ice experts at NASA and the University of Washington echoed his assessment.
Dr. Serreze said that a high-pressure system parked over the Arctic appeared to have caused a âtriple whammyâ â keeping away clouds, causing winds to carry warm air north and pushing sea ice away from Siberia, exposing huge areas of open water.
The progressive summertime opening of the Arctic has intensified a longstanding international tug of war over shipping routes and possible oil and gas deposits beneath the Arctic Ocean seabed.
Last week, Russians planted a flag on the seabed at the North Pole. On Wednesday, Stephen Harper, the Canadian prime minister, began a tour of Canadaâs Arctic holdings, pledging âto vigorously protect our Arctic sovereignty as international interest in the region increases.â
================
By the way, it's A-R-C-T-I-C -- and there's no "Arctic Peninsula" since the Arctic Ocean (and the entire North polar region) is open ocean; there is an ANTARCTIC (South polar) peninsula, which is part of the continent of Antarctica.
If you can't tell North from South I'm not sure you're in much of a position to criticize scientists who've made a career of studying the climate.
Message edited by author 2007-08-15 00:44:34. |
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08/15/2007 12:41:58 AM · #145 |
Originally posted by meyers:
How much mercury do you think your body could handle? |
LMAO!!! |
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08/15/2007 12:57:58 AM · #146 |
For the record I do believe that the earth is warming. However I believe it to be from a lot of sources including the fault of us a humans. But I weigh my opinion on biblical scripture.
That aside I have read about carbon off-sets. To make sure I am understanding it correctly could someone please explain it in layman terms for me. I did the calculator and it said that my home/car puts off a total of 6.03 carbon foot print.
I am open to debate and respect everyone on both sides. Lets keep this civil.
Thanks |
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08/15/2007 01:06:12 AM · #147 |
Let's just examine one point, the claim that we measly humans couldn't possibly affect the globe, and that it's arrogant to say we could.
Lessee ... where to begin, where to begin ...
fishery collapses
ozone depletion
mercury-laden air pollution from China landing in US waters
trash from ships piling up in ocean vortexes
species crossing oceans with human ships and invading new territory (too many examples to bother finding one)
As to the predictions that last year and this year would be bad for hurricanes: yep. They predicted it and they were wrong. So?
I guess you're next going to tell me you're never going to listen to another scientist, because scientists have been wrong in the past. You don't even need global changes to go there. I mean, scientists were *sure* the Earth was flat.
And I'm still waiting to hear what you'd do if 696 doctors told you that you were going to die without treatment, but 35 said to ignore them.
Another thing. Some of you folks have said you don't like Gore's "scare" tactics. Yet in another breath you say you don't see any proof climate change is happening. Which is it? You want the proof or not?
I don't like artificially elevated panic-inducing reports any more than you do. But when you demand proof, you can't then dismiss it by saying it's scare tactics. To say nothing of the fact that properly dismissing actual hyperbole still does nothing to respond to the underlying issues.
Message edited by author 2007-08-15 01:09:11.
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08/15/2007 01:07:16 AM · #148 |
Originally posted by chip_k:
Originally posted by option:
I took a piss on a glacier today. Take that, Al Gore! |
Our glaciers have all melted. I can't do that anymore. |
Well if it makes you feel any better, summer hasnt come to the north coast yet, and theres still ALOT of snow on the ground. Barring an indian summer, you can chalk this one up for a year of glacial advance... |
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08/15/2007 01:18:06 AM · #149 |
Originally posted by swhiddon:
For the record I do believe that the earth is warming. However I believe it to be from a lot of sources including the fault of us a humans. But I weigh my opinion on biblical scripture.
That aside I have read about carbon off-sets. To make sure I am understanding it correctly could someone please explain it in layman terms for me. I did the calculator and it said that my home/car puts off a total of 6.03 carbon foot print.
I am open to debate and respect everyone on both sides. Lets keep this civil.
Thanks |
From Wikipedia article:
"Carbon offsetting is the act of mitigating ("offsetting") greenhouse gas emissions. A well-known example is the planting of trees to compensate for the greenhouse gas emissions from personal air travel."
Personally, I think it's best to conserve what you can rather than trying to "offset" your carbon-dioxide emissions. I use window fans at night rather than running A/C, use a bicycle for short trips (and sometimes long trips :) to minimze my car usage and keep my place REALLY COOL in the winter. Sweatshirts, the sun on the side of the building, hot chocolate and heat from my home-office computer get me through the Colorado winter... without using my furnace at all. My winter gas bills are about $15 a month.
Edited to add: I DO use a small space heater in my bedroom on the coldest nights. Like, when it's below 10 F or so.
Message edited by author 2007-08-15 01:24:31. |
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08/15/2007 01:18:12 AM · #150 |
Originally posted by option:
Well if it makes you feel any better, summer hasnt come to the north coast yet, and theres still ALOT of snow on the ground. Barring an indian summer, you can chalk this one up for a year of glacial advance... |
I wish a small cold spurt in one area meant we didn't have anything to worry about. Unfortunately, that's as relevant as the fact it hit some high temperature somewhere today. That is, neither is relevant. Climate isn't weather.
Furthermore, I prefer the term "climate change" because it's more complete than "global warming." The latter accurately describes the rising average global temperatures, while the latter recognizes that some areas may get cooler as a result of the overall warming trend. For example, if the Gulf Stream shuts down, Europe could get cooler. I'm not saying how likely that is, only using it as an example of climate change doesn't always mean warmer temps everywhere.
Message edited by author 2007-08-15 01:30:41.
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