Getting the Shot or Meeting the Challenge

08/09/2007 04:06:18 PM · #76

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by mileskea:
I feel sorry for Jeff here because this thread is taking away from his achievement. His photograph is stunning and the more I look at it the more I appreciate it but does it say Triumph to me? I don't think it does. It screams all sorts of other superlatives but not Triumph.

As a few have suggested - go try and take that picture. See how frustrated you feel. See how triumphant you feel when (if) you manage to even get close. Then that photo would scream triumph at you.

I know frustration well enough it happens everytime I try to match my minds eye with what is appearing in the viewfinder! No amount of clever titling can help you there!

The point that I was trying to make was that the photo itself is a great achievement but is not a triumph - the action undoubtly be but the shot is not.

I don't want to split hairs here. I have not wish to denegrate Jeffs work. I merely point out that for this particular challenge the photo failed to make the requisite connection - for me anyway - to the brief.

08/09/2007 04:23:05 PM · #77

Originally posted by mileskea:

I don't want to split hairs here. I have not wish to denegrate Jeffs work. I merely point out that for this particular challenge the photo failed to make the requisite connection - for me anyway - to the brief.

Well you are splitting hairs and you are also narrowly defining the challenge.

I say again to all, open your minds to the photogs intent and allow yourself the creative freedom to interpret the description and the artist's works. You can not be an artist with such a closed mind. Not only will it affect the scores you give but the the act of creation itself.

Restriction of creativity is not art. The image in question does meet the challenge even if it is just on a intangible level.

Message edited by author 2007-08-09 16:23:43.

08/09/2007 04:41:06 PM · #78

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Originally posted by mileskea:

I don't want to split hairs here. I have not wish to denegrate Jeffs work. I merely point out that for this particular challenge the photo failed to make the requisite connection - for me anyway - to the brief.

Well you are splitting hairs and you are also narrowly defining the challenge.

NO I am not narrowly defining anything nor have I tried to. The challenge was 'Take a photo representing triumph or success' To my mind, and obviously to others as well, Jeff's photo does not represent triumph it IS a triumph. These are not the same thing.

I say again to all, open your minds to the photogs intent and allow yourself the creative freedom to interpret the description and the artist's works. You can not be an artist with such a closed mind. Not only will it affect the scores you give but the the act of creation itself.

Restriction of creativity is not art. The image in question does meet the challenge even if it is just on a intangible level.

I am not an artist I am a photographer - an artist makes it up and a photographer captures it - completely different beasts.

At what point does the intent take over from actual? You are surely not suggesting that as long as the intent is there the challenge brief shouldn't matter. Can you honestly tell me that you pay no attention to the challenge as set or is it something that you merely pay lipservice to?

Message edited by author 2007-08-09 16:45:20.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

08/09/2007 04:47:36 PM · #79

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Originally posted by mileskea:

I don't want to split hairs here. I have not wish to denegrate Jeffs work. I merely point out that for this particular challenge the photo failed to make the requisite connection - for me anyway - to the brief.

Well you are splitting hairs and you are also narrowly defining the challenge.

I say again to all, open your minds to the photogs intent and allow yourself the creative freedom to interpret the description and the artist's works. You can not be an artist with such a closed mind. Not only will it affect the scores you give but the the act of creation itself.

Restriction of creativity is not art. The image in question does meet the challenge even if it is just on a intangible level.

"... photogs intent ... "?

So now we're supposed to be mind readers? If the image doesn't connect with the challenge to the viewer/voter, it doesn't connect and the photographer didn't meet the challenge (at least for that particular voter).

"... intangible level ... "?

Intangibles are out of reach and not available to ther viewer/voter.

Of course in this case being discussed, the photographer took care of both with a well written title and gave us both the intent and intangible connection in writing.

It's the photographers job to sell the image to the voters. The voter shouldn't be put in a position of having to convince themselves that an image meets the challenge.

08/09/2007 04:48:33 PM · #80

Originally posted by mileskea:

First in my mind this site is full of artists and I believe that most of the photography on this site is art.

If you feel that photography is not an art then yeah I can see why you feel the way you do.

To me photography is an art form just like painting and I create my images first in my mind and then capture it in the camera and then make decisions in post processing to create my finished work.

And yes the challenge description means something I just chose to allow my self the opportunity when viewing the work to put myself in the mindset of the photog.

If I had to list the importance of the challenge description it would be last or close to last on my list of judging criteria.

Look at my portfolio if you think I just pay lip service to the challenges and their topics.

Message edited by author 2007-08-09 16:48:43.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

08/09/2007 04:53:08 PM · #81

Originally posted by glad2badad:

You can be what ever you want to be. But I never said anything about being a mind reader so whatever to that.

Originally posted by glad2badad:

"... intangible level ... "?

YES

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Intangibles are out of reach and not available to ther viewer/voter.

Why?

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Of course in this case being discussed, the photographer took care of both with a well written title and gave us both the intent and intangible connection in writing.

Yes he did so what?

Originally posted by glad2badad:

It's the photographers job to sell the image to the voters. The voter shouldn't be put in a position of having to convince themselves that an image meets the challenge.

I don't convince myself of crap. I allow myself to take it all in. Including trying to put myself in the mindset of the artist.

Message edited by author 2007-08-09 16:55:09.

whiteflyer

Canon EOS-1D Mark IV

08/09/2007 05:19:34 PM · #82

As I said in my original post, the photo by Jeff it excellent, and I in no way mean to disparage Jeff. Jeff did not vote for his own photo and can not be blamed.

Now without the title the photo did not meet the challenge, but some on here believe the title is part of the submission as a whole. If Jeff had posted this in the Rolling Stone Song Challenge with the title " I took this while listening to the Rolling Stones on my iPod" should the photo have won that challenge too.

08/09/2007 05:21:23 PM · #83

Originally posted by whiteflyer:

Well to me every image in the Rolling stones challenge was a shoehorn. So sure why not! :-P

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

08/09/2007 05:30:26 PM · #84

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Originally posted by mileskea:

I am not an artist I am a photographer - an artist makes it up and a photographer captures it - completely different beasts.

At what point does the intent take over from actual? You are surely not suggesting that as long as the intent is there the challenge brief shouldn't matter. Can you honestly tell me that you pay no attention to the challenge as set or is it something that you merelty pay lipservice to?

First in my mind this site is full of artists and I believe that most of the photography on this site is art.

If you feel that photography is not an art then yeah I can see why you feel the way you do.

To me photography is an art form just like painting and I create my images first in my mind and then capture it in the camera and then make decisions in post processing to create my finished work.

I agree it is an art form but not an art. As a photographer when you capture reality through that lens you can not alter that capture immediately - filters aside. The image is the image. An artist has complete control over their medium, if they choose to paint a face with three eyes they can in spite of their subject. A photographer must employ another process and set of tools to achieve that goal. Not so much artistry as technical capability

And yes the challenge description means something I just chose to allow my self the opportunity when viewing the work to put myself in the mindset of the photog.

It is not a matter of seeing the photo as the photographer. It doesn't work like that your impression is your impression. When I post a photo I want you to enjoy the image not my mindset.

If I had to list the importance of the challenge description it would be last or close to last on my list of judging criteria.

What is the point of the challenge brief if it is to be ignored? Perhaps we will need to agree to differ here. When I vote I place the photo within the challenge first and the look at it technically. I personally get hacked off when the same flower shot appears in every challenge with a different title to tie it to the brief.

Look at my portfolio if you think I just pay lip service to the challenges and their topics.

I have looked at your portfolio and it is impressive and you do stick to the brief. Why then do you not apply those principles when voting?

fotomann_forever

08/09/2007 05:38:00 PM · #85

Wow, the doodoo runs deep in this thread.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

08/09/2007 05:44:57 PM · #86

The good news is mileskea and everybody else had a say in who won. If you didn't bother to vote, then what are you doing bitching about the winners? If you did vote and gave it a 1, good for you. You'll get your man another day. If you voted, and gave it a 4 when you thought it didn't meet the challenge, why did you do that? If you voted and gave it a 10 because you thought it was awesome. That's great. At the end of the day, most people agreed with you.

08/09/2007 05:45:24 PM · #87

Originally posted by mileskea:

I agree it is an art form but not an art. As a photographer when you capture reality through that lens you can not alter that capture immediately - filters aside. The image is the image. An artist has complete control over their medium, if they choose to paint a face with three eyes they can in spite of their subject. A photographer must employ another process and set of tools to achieve that goal. Not so much artistry as technical capability.

What is captured in the camera is not reality. It is a lie. The captured image always tells a story out of context. Then once in photoshop I have complete control of that image. To me it is very much like painting. It is also very much an art to me.

Originally posted by mileskea:

It is not a matter of seeing the photo as the photographer. It doesn't work like that your impression is your impression. When I post a photo I want you to enjoy the image not my mindset.

I look to enjoy the images I view. If the image really strikes me I sit and think, How did the photog do that? What must have inspired them? I wonder what feeling the artist would like me to feel? I believe that helps give me a better appreciation of what the photog wanted to get across. Understanding the mindset of the artist of course can never be fully realized but I attempt it to help make me a better artist.

Originally posted by mileskea:

What is the point of the challenge brief if it is to be ignored? Perhaps we will need to agree to differ here. When I vote I place the photo within the challenge first and the look at it technically. I personally get hacked off when the same flower shot appears in every challenge with a different title to tie it to the brief.

The point of the challenge brief to me is as a frame work for the challenge. A starting point if you will. It is important but for me just not as important as rocking my world with an amazing image.
I agree that there are some really crappy shoehorn images in every challenge and if I just can't stand it I skip it and won't vote on it.

Yes we may have to agree to disagree but I appreciate the points you have made and respect that you are true to yourself and how you vote.

Since this is a learning site I give wide leeway to the challenge descriptions.

Message edited by author 2007-08-09 17:48:22.

zxaar

08/09/2007 05:51:35 PM · #88

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Then once in photoshop I have complete control of that image. To me it is very much like painting.

He he he, I would say little bit like painting. Because the main difference between the painting and doing photoshop is, in painting you make the whole picture yourself bit by bit. While in photoshop you only adjust what is already there. If you make the picture pixel by pixel then might be like painting.

anyway I got what you wished to say.

08/09/2007 05:53:27 PM · #89

Originally posted by zxaar:

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Then once in photoshop I have complete control of that image. To me it is very much like painting.

He he he, I would say little bit like painting. Because the main difference between the painting and doing photoshop is, in painting you make the whole picture yourself bit by bit. While in photoshop you only adjust what is already there. If you make the picture pixel by pixel then might be like painting.

anyway I got what you wished to say.

I would say very much like painting.

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

08/09/2007 06:23:55 PM · #90

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

No axe to grind here. Voting is as important as submitting. I try to vote in all the challenges. Without the 'judgement' of your peers how do you improve? Photography is a two way street I present you view and make up your own mind. Simple really

Matthew

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

08/09/2007 06:39:07 PM · #91

Originally posted by mileskea:

The point that I was trying to make was that the photo itself is a great achievement but is not a triumph - the action undoubtly be but the shot is not.

I don't want to split hairs here. I have not wish to denegrate Jeffs work. I merely point out that for this particular challenge the photo failed to make the requisite connection - for me anyway - to the brief.

For this challenge, Jeff's picture was the best at getting a high vote - whether that is for reasons you agree with or not. If you wish to get a high score, then you may need to adapt your thinking on what kind of images should be submitted because this will be easier than changing the voting patterns of thousands of people.

liberty

Canon EOS-50D

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

08/09/2007 06:39:29 PM · #92

Ha ha, I have to comment on this one, I didn't really read through but, I have messed up so many good shots or good ideas, and it seems the pictures I post for fun are way better than my challenge entries. But thats the way the cookie crumbles, I can say I am very proud for my entry in fast food. I can't wait, and my free study shot (so far) seems pretty interesting, to me anyway. I do think my votes recieved are fair 99% of the time, and I have been recieving alot more constructive and helpful comments. I have been trying to return the favor that way to the best of my knowledge. (constuctive commenting)
To say something about the artist/photographer thing, I have done a fair amount of painting, pictures/ceramics,(haven't done much since joining here) they both have the creativeness to be called art. This is only my opinion, and to me, that counts.
I would also like to add that the quality of the photo most of the time gets it for me when voting, unless I can find nothing to do with the challenge, but I think I am a very lenient voter, barely ever giving a 5 at the lowest. :)
I put my 2 cents in here.......

08/09/2007 06:42:39 PM · #93

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Originally posted by mileskea:
I agree it is an art form but not an art. As a photographer when you capture reality through that lens you can not alter that capture immediately - filters aside. The image is the image. An artist has complete control over their medium, if they choose to paint a face with three eyes they can in spite of their subject. A photographer must employ another process and set of tools to achieve that goal. Not so much artistry as technical capability.

What is captured in the camera is not reality. It is a lie. The captured image always tells a story out of context. Then once in photoshop I have complete control of that image. To me it is very much like painting. It is also very much an art to me.

Again we may need to differ here the captured image doesn't hold any story . That is in the mind of the viewer. I also look at other photographs and wonder how they were done. Admittedly I don't then go on to think about what the photographer wants me to think - I have already made my mind up by then. At the point that a photo hits Photoshop reality starts to slip away - bigtime. I treat photoshop as my darkroom not a design studio. I try to keep my images real where I can and if you want complete control over your image why start with reality at all. No insult intended here I am old enough to have grown up with film and moved to digital quite late. Whilst I appreciate the skill involved in manipulating digital images I am not at all sure I agree with it.

Originally posted by mileskea:
It is not a matter of seeing the photo as the photographer. It doesn't work like that your impression is your impression. When I post a photo I want you to enjoy the image not my mindset.

I look to enjoy the images I view. If the image really strikes me I sit and think, How did the photog do that? What must have inspired them? I wonder what feeling the artist would like me to feel? I believe that helps give me a better appreciation of what the photog wanted to get across. Understanding the mindset of the artist of course can never be fully realized but I attempt it to help make me a better artist.

I too enjoy the images I view. It never ceases to amaze me how versatile a tool a camera is. I don't get into all the psycho review stuff but hey what ever flips your skirt :)

Originally posted by mileskea:
What is the point of the challenge brief if it is to be ignored? Perhaps we will need to agree to differ here. When I vote I place the photo within the challenge first and the look at it technically. I personally get hacked off when the same flower shot appears in every challenge with a different title to tie it to the brief.

The point of the challenge brief to me is as a frame work for the challenge. A starting point if you will. It is important but for me just not as important as rocking my world with an amazing image.
I agree that there are some really crappy shoehorn images in every challenge and if I just can't stand it I skip it and won't vote on it.

Yes we may have to agree to disagree but I appreciate the points you have made and respect that you are true to yourself and how you vote.

Since this is a learning site I give wide leeway to the challenge descriptions.

In my opinion all sites are learning sites I would aspire to be humble enough to know my limitations and wise enough to know how to learn to improve upon them

zxaar

08/09/2007 06:50:26 PM · #94

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Originally posted by zxaar:

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Then once in photoshop I have complete control of that image. To me it is very much like painting.

He he he, I would say little bit like painting. Because the main difference between the painting and doing photoshop is, in painting you make the whole picture yourself bit by bit. While in photoshop you only adjust what is already there. If you make the picture pixel by pixel then might be like painting.

anyway I got what you wished to say.

I would say very much like painting.

Nope not even close.

This is photoshoped :

(done from base image).

and this is painting :

Done every bit by real colors on real board.

You see there is a difference in difficulty level. Making a realistic painting is many many times difficult than processing a photo in photoshop. Saying them equal is an insult to efforts a painter put into a painting.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

08/09/2007 06:54:38 PM · #95

Yup we will have to agree to disagree.

Every image tells a story. Every image lies. Even with film the darkroom is where you painted the picture.

Ansel Adams always made his images look as he wanted them in the darkroom. It was his truth and expression of his art.

Spizzer

Nikon D3

08/09/2007 06:55:10 PM · #96

I would like to add another thought that hasn't been touched on in this thread. One of the most valuable aspects of DPC to me is that it has pushed me as a photographer. When I started I didn't like "staged" shots, or whatever you want to call them. I entered the challenges I was comfortable with...landscape, portrait, etc. However, once I started trying to get involved with more challenges, I was forced into photograpy I wouldn't have normally done, and pushed to think more creatively. My family is still giving me a hard time of my "nude barbie" photos that I was trying to get a realistic nude to submit to the toy challenge. I never got an acceptable one, but I learned a lot.

Enough rambling, but the point I am trying to make is that always trying to shoehorn any image into the challenge keeps one from growing as a photograper. That is why I am here.

regards,

jeff

08/09/2007 06:55:17 PM · #97

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by mileskea:
The point that I was trying to make was that the photo itself is a great achievement but is not a triumph - the action undoubtly be but the shot is not.

I don't want to split hairs here. I have not wish to denegrate Jeffs work. I merely point out that for this particular challenge the photo failed to make the requisite connection - for me anyway - to the brief.

For this challenge, Jeff's picture was the best at getting a high vote - whether that is for reasons you agree with or not. If you wish to get a high score, then you may need to adapt your thinking on what kind of images should be submitted because this will be easier than changing the voting patterns of thousands of people.

Here we go again. I am already on record in other threads as stating that for me the score is not the be all and end all - if it were I would have quit a long time ago :) The important thing for me is the feedback. In order to improve I need to know where I am going wrong.

I have no intention of adapting my thinking wouldn't work anyway - one track mind you see:) There is no accounting for taste so I do not intend to. The challenges are my cue to pick up the camera and start shooting. It just points me in the a particular direction for a week. Photography at this level is not a contest in the true sense of the word it is after all suppose to be fun.

I do admit that I enjoy the conversations though!

08/09/2007 07:00:19 PM · #98

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Point here is he started with an image not a blank canvas and therefore he was limited in what could be done as art.

The camera captures what is put in front of it and it is not capable of a 'lie'. The photographer does the rest.

08/09/2007 07:02:16 PM · #99

Originally posted by zxaar:

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Originally posted by zxaar:

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Then once in photoshop I have complete control of that image. To me it is very much like painting.

He he he, I would say little bit like painting. Because the main difference between the painting and doing photoshop is, in painting you make the whole picture yourself bit by bit. While in photoshop you only adjust what is already there. If you make the picture pixel by pixel then might be like painting.

anyway I got what you wished to say.

I would say very much like painting.

Nope not even close.

This is photoshoped :
(done from base image).

and this is painting :
Done every bit by real colors on real board.

You see there is a difference in difficulty level. Making a realistic painting is many many times difficult than processing a photo in photoshop. Saying them equal is an insult to efforts a painter put into a painting.

Man you took this awful far. You are taking me entirely too seriously. My point, that you obviously missed, is that it is very much an art as painting is an art. It is the act of creation. You think I am insulting painters or their craft think again.