just another religious debate...

07/18/2007 04:54:26 PM · #26

Originally posted by karmat:

Allah is a "he."
Buddha was a "he."

As far as "hell," that is what Christianity *names* it, but if I am not Muslim (or whomever), I'm certainly not going to heaven (or whatever it may be called for whomever).

And, according to one Islamic source I found that was talking about the Muslim's approach/philosophy to death, the Quran says
Originally posted by Quran:
"Every soul shall have a taste of death: And only on the Day of Judgement shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have succeeded. For the life of this world is but goods of chattels of deception" (al-Imran 3:185)

it seems to me that Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on "belief this or burn forever" approach.

No indeed I never tried to say it did. I just don't know much about the other religions is all I was saying.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 II

07/18/2007 05:00:07 PM · #27

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by hopper:
macro evolution cannot be proved and it's taught in schools - another unprovable thing pushed on others

but you believe in macro evolution, so it's ok and not part of your rant

It's taught in SCIENCE class because theories are what science uses. Everything taught in science class is a theory, and a theory is strictly defined and supported by evidence. Those pushing "Intelligent Design" are taking advantage of people's ignorance about what scientific method and theory are all about.

THANK you. lol. Here is from a physics site...

"So science has tossed the use of "law" in favor of "theory". This "theory" does not mean "hypothesis" which is a speculation. In this case, think of music theory - definitely not a hypothesis, but a working set of rules that define a body of knowledge."

Full Article Here

Intelligent design is not even a theory. It is unfair to put ot on the level of science and try to teach it in tandum with evolution. There are many other theories taught but no great crusades against them if they don't go agaist what the bible says.

EducatedSavage

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

07/18/2007 05:03:56 PM · #28

Originally posted by Matthew:

Sorry for any misunderstanding, but the words used by the OP lent themselves to using Christianity as an example. I assure you that certainly I have an equally low opinion of all other religions.

Well, I certainly feel a lot better now! I'm always a bit frustrated when people want to talk 'religion' and then try to discuss the Christian Bible with me (or the Quran, or the Jewish Bible, etc). :/

And fairies WEAR boots, they don't just hide them!

More to the point, I like to think that they really don't want me to go to Hell, which is very nice. ((And I say "like to think" because it's my reality and I like it better that way.))

07/18/2007 05:07:05 PM · #29

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Now onto the "he". Why is God gendered? If god has no figure, wouldn't "he" actually be "it" some other worldly being instead of some "dude" with a robe or whatever other popular stereotypes are used. To me using the term he just gives even more flame to the patriarichal fire.

I don't think it has anything to do with men asserting power over women, but, as Matthew suggested, it is more of a result of the way language works.

Perhaps the question you should ask is why does it matter so much to you? You are free to worship as you wish, or not at all.

Well I already answered this question but I will adress this again. First, at least where the bible is conscerned (and from what little I know about other religions) men ARE valued over women. Yes, these writings were written when men were extremely dominant, and they were written by men. SO it is more than just semantics and using "he" as a neutral. It was the way society was, and still is to a degree.

You cannot claim that because I can worship how I want that the worship of others does not affect me, it does. Look at gay marriage, for example. Some people don't believe in it, and they have the power to ban it. Religious beliefs spill over into others rights all the time. That is mostly the basis of the post that I was trying to get at in a roundabout way.

07/18/2007 07:26:34 PM · #30

Originally posted by escapetooz:

That is pretty funny, I mean it is the obvious answer, it is a really good answer thta makes a lot of sense. But still doesn't REALLY answer my question. What compells people to be SO entrhaled in what they believe that they think everyone else should believe it too? It's very interesting how that works.

I don't know how much you think about it but IMO religion is almost solely a mechanism for dealing with death.

I only really started thinking about death and what it means fairly recently. It is enough to make my heart grow cold and nags at me - I am willing to acknowledge that I genuinely fear death and as a concept it has the power to prey upon one's mind if you let it.

It seems so harsh that we are nothing more than the current pinnacle of a natural process that is a byproduct of something unimaginably larger, with no purpose other than our biological drive and for our cumulative life experiences to disappear when we die. However, all the evidence points to just this.

As I see it, religion provides a very nice and easy answer - it is very seductive because it:

a. purports to give us meaning and a purpose;

b. purports to provide an alternative to death (for ourselves and loved ones) by way of an afterlife or rebirth;

c. purports to answer some difficult questions, such as "how did the universe begin?";

d. often provides a support community and tribal affiliation; and

e. preserves folklore, traditions, rites etc that give us a sense of place and can be comforting.

All very nice as far as delusions go and if you never want/need to think about these things then why would you question it?

Once inside a religious belief, you are operating within an alternate reality where god is "real" and the imperative to help other people is pressing. Either that, or you have a political or financial incentive to do so in this life...

Sadly, however, if you look at the situation rationally and objectively (as far as a person can do so) it is almost certain that religion is all rubbish, a human invention to provide comfort, and in fact we just die like all other living things and that is the end of it. Not a comforting thought, but almost certainly true.

What if I have got it wrong? Everyone seems to have a different way of expressing their precise religious beliefs even if they follow the themes of one religion or another - my view is just one more different view, so I'll be in the same boat as pretty much everyone else.

Message edited by author 2007-07-18 19:29:06.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

07/18/2007 07:52:19 PM · #31

Originally posted by Matthew:

What if I have got it wrong? Everyone seems to have a different way of expressing their precise religious beliefs even if they follow the themes of one religion or another - my view is just one more different view, so I'll be in the same boat as pretty much everyone else.

I don't think so. A conclusion formulated from hard evidence (or, in the case of god-belief, a profound lack of hard evidence), is not simply an opinion. Your "view" is a reasonable conclusion drawn from intelligently surmised data. Religious views, that is, "faith", is belief without evidence. Reason and logic are not required (and are in fact demonstrably frowned upon).

theSaj

Canon EOS-20D

07/18/2007 07:57:13 PM · #32

*shrug*

Two reasons:

a) Because I look at the world's complexity and I see design and intelligence. I see things that are not possible through mere random formation. Which the jumps from a to b would require stages that don't allow for the specimens to survive.

b) Because of personal experiences I have had in my faith.

So I will ask you a question. Why is there a segment of atheists that constantly have to attack people of faith. And can't just leave them alone.

*ponders*

So you post antagonizing threads. *yawn*

*shrugs*

*waves good-bye*

~~~

07/18/2007 07:58:41 PM · #33

Originally posted by Matthew:

I don't know how much you think about it but IMO religion is almost solely a mechanism for dealing with death.
...
As I see it, religion provides a very nice and easy answer - it is very seductive because it: a,b,c,d,e

Religion also allows social, hierarchically inclined animals such as human beings to organize themselves into ways that are innately satisfying. For the majority of people, it seems the need to follow the alpha leaders of the pack is overwhelmingly strong. Combined with the ultimate hierarchy of god-man-other, the desire to believe and have faith, and interpret the universe in this narrow way, is simply too attractive to resist.

07/18/2007 07:58:42 PM · #34

Well... I don't think about it really. Or I do but probably not more or less than the average person (religious or not).

Perhaps it is because I'm young but the thought of death being the end isn't that scary to me. Not so say that I'm not fearful of death, I am. Just to say that if that's the end, then it is and I'm not going to make up fairy tales to handle it.

I look at it this way... say there is afterlife or reincarnation. For reincarnation, well, you'd never know you were reincarnated anyway so it would almost be no different than acually dying. It's a little different with heaven, etc, because that seems to say that you will get there and be you with all your memories, etc. To me, why would you want that? Live all of enternity thinking about your earth life... If this isn't the case then it goes back again to the theory I had with reincarnation, where even if SOMETHING is there, you wouldn't know it nor would you still be "you."

So any way you look, for me at least, it all seems pointless and futile. Why try to hold on for eternity? It is bizarre. There is no eternity for us. Do we really want to see what the world has turned into in the year 5000 chillin up in the sky with Abe Lincoln and Marilyn Monroe and all your dead relatives past, present and future? I wouldn't.

Seems like heaven and hell would be awfully croweded, and with no sense of time everyone would already be there, your children, your great grandchildren, etc. With no concept of time you would all already be dead for all of eternity.

When you really think of the logistics of heaven it's really quite scary actually...

Wow, crazy tangent flow of htoughts.

07/18/2007 08:03:25 PM · #35

Originally posted by theSaj:

So I will ask you a question. Why is there a segment of atheists that constantly have to attack people of faith. And can't just leave them alone.

I'll answer this, though you probably don't really care that much. It isn't so much an attack against people of faith, as it is a defence against the overwhelming onslaught of professions of faith, with all their mindless one-liners, declarations of damnations, "witnessing", railing against pretty much everything that isn't exactly like it, and a seemingly endless similar parade of trite non-reason. It's is completely exhausting to be atheist in a world of unreasonable belief. One can only stand so much before one feels the need to organize some kind of rational rebuttal.

07/18/2007 08:06:00 PM · #36

Originally posted by theSaj:

It is possible through mere random formation. Like a snowflake. Very complex, but god isn't up there with his scissors cutting them out for us to put on our tongues. Randomness is life. But also things are not as random as they seem. That is evolution. Life works because what doesn't work is no longer here, it changes and adapts or goes extinct.

Seems religion is more random to me than the thought of evolution. Jesus was just put there... in there, in Mary's whomb with no account for genetics, etc. That's pretty damn random.

As for your claims, I am not attacking anyone. I am starting discussion. I am merely pointing out the people that attack me on a regular basis. But I'm very aware of your ability to twist things in my past dealings with you. Yes I'm some antagonising what was it... sexist? or desriminitory? whatever you called me.

Funny no one else thought I was attacking them. Perhaps you are on high alert all of the time?

Yawn. Peace. Goodbye!

07/18/2007 08:08:38 PM · #37

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by theSaj:
So I will ask you a question. Why is there a segment of atheists that constantly have to attack people of faith. And can't just leave them alone.

I'll answer this, though you probably don't really care that much. It isn't so much an attack against people of faith, as it is a defence against the overwhelming onslaught of professions of faith, with all their mindless one-liners, declarations of damnations, "witnessing", railing against pretty much everything that isn't exactly like it, and a seemingly endless similar parade of trite non-reason. It's is completely exhausting to be atheist in a world of unreasonable belief. One can only stand so much before one feels the need to organize some kind of rational rebuttal.

Thank you. Don't be too conserned. The Saj is still bitter from my feminist thread where I was a "man-hater", or whatever else. Crazy me, now I'm ATTACKING his religious faith as well as his manhood.

Oh when will my reign of terror end?

Of course the simple solution is to stay out of these threads if you view them as attacking.

07/18/2007 08:12:09 PM · #38

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Perhaps it is because I'm young but the thought of death being the end isn't that scary to me.

I am guessing that mid life crises are founded in these issues - to me, they seem to get more pressing as you get a bit older.

07/18/2007 08:16:45 PM · #39

To clear up an confusion This:

Is a lot of what I'm talking about. I'm not going up to little old ladies at church and picking fights. These people are out there screaming holy hell, but no, the athiests are the bad guys for trying to defend themselves.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

07/18/2007 08:16:45 PM · #40

Originally posted by theSaj:

I see things that are not possible through mere random formation. Which the jumps from a to b would require stages that don't allow for the specimens to survive.

You should let the intelligent design proponents know - they need some new ones because all their specimens so far have been thoroughly debunked.

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

07/18/2007 08:18:20 PM · #41

Having just lost a parent, the sense of ultimate finality is more clear to me than before. However I still don't fear it, nor do I feel an urge to seek something (religion or otherwise) that gives death any meaning beyond what it is - the end of life.

I don't see how religious beliefs have any more effect on a non-religious person than other beliefs. People that believe in social welfare programs have a direct effect on you, people who believe that employers should be able to demand as many hours a week out of you as they please and can terminate your employment at will have an effect on you, etc, etc. Religious beliefs hold no special power of irritation in this regard.

I can only assume that someone who is especially irritated by actions and beliefs rooted in religious reasons is affected so because they find the root cause of those beliefs to be ludicrous bordering on insane.

07/18/2007 08:18:24 PM · #42

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
Perhaps it is because I'm young but the thought of death being the end isn't that scary to me.

I am guessing that mid life crises are founded in these issues - to me, they seem to get more pressing as you get a bit older.

probably, but then when you get in your golden years I believe thats when you accept it and are alright with the thought. I dunno... my grandparents joke about it and say they want to die young before they lose their minds. Makes sense, at that point you aren't really you and more and just a burden to your family.

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

07/18/2007 08:27:11 PM · #43

Originally posted by routerguy666:

Well that last sentence is it right there. Ok... presumably someone's political beliefs are grounded in an opinion based on facts. When religion comes in there is a problem.

The very nature of christianity, as it has been used and scewed over the years is that it is VERY easy to manipulate someone if you throw in a religious context. For example the war. For or against people have their reasons. Now bring god into, and start making people think they are "less christian" if they do not support it. And we got another version of the Salem Witch Trials.

Politics and religion should not mix. Religion is too easily manipulated is the bottom line. If you do religion for yourself and have your own morals it's one thing, but if you let someone else give your morals to you, suddenly murder is ok or necessary (war) and love is bad (gay marriage) and things get all backwards.

SO YES. Religion affects my daily life. And it should not if I do not wish it that way.

David Ey

Nikon D80

07/18/2007 08:29:07 PM · #44

Those of you who are non-believers have yourself "eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and are, perhaps, too smart for your own good. Rest in peace....if you can.

07/18/2007 08:29:18 PM · #45

Originally posted by theSaj:

So I will ask you a question. Why is there a segment of atheists that constantly have to attack people of faith. And can't just leave them alone.

I am not sure that it is really an "attack". More of a "call to reality" in the face of increasing fundamentalism pervading society and the undermining of valuable secular movements.

Edit to add: and frustration in the face of the irrational sometimes bordering on the insane.

Message edited by author 2007-07-18 20:43:02.

07/18/2007 08:31:42 PM · #46

Originally posted by David Ey:

Those of you who are non-believers have yourself "eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and are, perhaps, too smart for your own good. Rest in peace....if you can.

Thanks for the kind words, David. So very Christian of you... ;-)

07/18/2007 08:31:51 PM · #47

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by theSaj:
So I will ask you a question. Why is there a segment of atheists that constantly have to attack people of faith. And can't just leave them alone.

I am not sure that it is really an "attack". More of a "call to reality" in the face of increasing fundamentalism pervading society and the undermining of valuable secular movements.

Hence my visual aid. ;)

I don't want anyone to miss out on this gem. I see these people all too often. This particular image was taken at the Huntington Beach bordwalk. So THAT is attacking. Opening up discussion is not.

07/18/2007 08:37:21 PM · #48

Originally posted by David Ey:

Those of you who are non-believers have yourself "eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and are, perhaps, too smart for your own good. Rest in peace....if you can.

To wit.

07/18/2007 08:39:28 PM · #49

Originally posted by routerguy666:

Having just lost a parent, the sense of ultimate finality is more clear to me than before.

I am sorry to hear that. My best wishes.

On the argument - my point was that religion offers a prop and when faced with difficult issues some people do seem to need that (not me AFAIK, I hasten to add).

Your lunacy point is well made.