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07/11/2007 02:44:59 PM · #26 |
One more thing: Let her take the prints home and let her see how they look there. Tell her if she doesn't like them she doesn't have to pay the full amount and just have to pay for the sitting fee and you can take the prints back. Chances are she'll find it easier to pay up for and she will also realize that she will like the shots and they are worth the money.
Just to put another perspective too: I donated a triptych to a charity auction where it was sold for $110. That was 3 4X6's in a plain frame. Larger prints (like 8X10's) and a better frame would have probably doubled that cost.
If it had been professionally framed as 3 11X14's (or larger) it would probably go four about $500 or more.
And that is without a sitting fee....(grain elevators are good models by the way) :)
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07/11/2007 02:45:34 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by ShannonLee:
okay, so what do you think of this...
When I wrote up the invoice I charged her $10.00 for an 8x10 print and with each 8x10 i threw in a free 5x7. To make these prints it cost me a total of $2.50 it costco. So, I was making a $7.50 profit on each set of one 8x10 and one 5x7 print. That $7.50 is added on because it is my piece of artwork and I can charge what I feel my artwork is worth. Not to cover the editing time, correct? |
Correct!
eta: by the way I am hardly an expert since the only thing I've ever sold is that one piece. The advice I am providing is based only on the reading I have done on the topic.
Message edited by author 2007-07-11 14:46:44.
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07/11/2007 02:54:46 PM · #28 |
Thank you Craig. I really appreciate your input.
At this point I'm seeing that she is definitely being unreasonable. However, it was a big boo-boo on my part to not set up exact pricing in the beginning. So, it might be best just to pass this off as a learning experience and meet her in the middle at about $200. That was $100 less than I had orignally hoped but, like I said, a good learning experience. |
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07/11/2007 02:59:54 PM · #29 |
This is going to sound like a repeat message but I really want you to know that your pricing is more than reasonable, actually too cheap !!
Obviously the big problem was not to have agreed on the price before the shoot, but it's yoo late for that now.
I would stick by my guns and harden my position letting her believe that you would even consider keeping everything and that would be that. (a bit of a poker bluff)
Sometimes you learn the hard way. Good luck. |
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07/11/2007 03:08:26 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by ShannonLee:
update: she's still trying to back out. she's telling me that i should only charge her for the photo session (which would be only $40) and the prints but NOT the editing time. what the heck? |
If she doesn't want to pay for editing time, then offer her unedited prints. Suggest she price out the competition to illustrate what a deal she's getting. And then refuse to do any business with them in the future, in the event they realize what a gem they had. PITAs are not worth it.
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07/11/2007 03:12:01 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by ShannonLee:
Thank you Craig. I really appreciate your input.
At this point I'm seeing that she is definitely being unreasonable. However, it was a big boo-boo on my part to not set up exact pricing in the beginning. So, it might be best just to pass this off as a learning experience and meet her in the middle at about $200. That was $100 less than I had orignally hoped but, like I said, a good learning experience. |
Look. If you do that, it will taint any business that you might get from her. They might tell their friends about how much they like your work etc, but I can promise that if you drop your price by 1/3, they will also tell those same people about how they bargained you down on price after the fact and every one of those people who come to you will expect the same thing.
I'd suggest rather than backing down on the price, apologize for the misunderstanding and offer something; a free print, beer, pretty much anything other than a concession on price, as a way to make up for it. |
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07/11/2007 03:16:20 PM · #32 |
| You might try to negotiate in a way that you benefit. You AREN'T charging too much and she's being a PITA, but if you come out of it empty handed, that REALLY sucks. Tell her that you'll reduce the sitting/editing time if she buys X-number of additional/larger prints. |
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07/11/2007 03:30:36 PM · #33 |
looks right to me, you only won 200$
but you must know all about you client. that happend to my once. i was really disapoint cause i know my work worth it.
next time be make the agreement before the ssion |
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07/11/2007 03:38:12 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by basssman7:
I think your $200 for sitting fee, editing time etc is very reasonable.
I think that for 1 11x14,12 8x 10"s and 12 4x6"s they are getting a steal for just $100. That should be much more like $40 min for the 11x14 and then $25 each for the 8x10's and $7 each for the 4x6's.
Unfotunately we live in a difficult time for photographers. When a client can pay the sitting fee, buy a 5x7 or something of the poses they want, then go to a photo center with a built in scanner and use the 5x7 to make a ton of really cheap prints..all after you have put your editing time in.
That is why I am considering going the route of shooting/editing/ making a photo show on dvd and a dvd of photos for a set price if I get back into wedding photos. |
Yep, a disk of photos is $1900. Or you can buy an album for $1900 and the disk is only $100. To do it any other way is to lose money. (as in an album is $1900, but a DVD of hi-res is $500 or $900). People know what they're doing when they're trying to get off cheap. Since I changed to the DVD=Album pricing scheme, and a dvd w/ an album is cheap, I sell more albums and fewer DVDs...
ShanonLee
Stick to your guns and don't compare your prices to anywhere else 'I'm cheap so it's a good deal for you' is really really bad salesmenship.
Better off to say "I normally charge $25 for an 8x10, 19 for a 5x6 and $45 for an 11x14. That's $573 plus the on-location shoot fee of $125, for $698. That's less than most photographers as I'm a student and starting out so my overhead/cost is lower. I'm giving you the work at my cost cause I like you (you look really good, can use this to sell more work, etc, etc). If you think $300 is too much, well, then i'll juet keep the images and give you back your money and you can have someone else take your photos. Think it over and let me know what you want to do"
-you've told them your price, gave them a discount and a compliment/reason, and then threatened to take away what they want (the photos). You've given them an out that will save their pride and pretty much told them to check around for price - they'll pay you the whole amount i'm sure.
Message edited by author 2007-07-11 15:45:52.
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07/11/2007 04:17:05 PM · #35 |
| wow. you guys have a lot of really really great advice. thank you so so much. i really really appreciate it! im going to talk this all over with my parents tonight. they both have owned a business for a long time and have had to deal with a lot of PITAs. They will have some really good advice for me. Thank you alllll again for your input and helping me learn. I'll letcha know what ends up happening :) |
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07/11/2007 04:29:19 PM · #36 |
| And if all else fails, Im 6'4" 275lbs and quite intimidating. If you want, for $50, ill show up at their house with a baseball bat, and make sure you get your money, and a new vcr, and some jewelery, and well, yeah. |
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07/11/2007 04:30:16 PM · #37 |
I know I got here late but for them to say you ripped them off is outrageous !
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07/11/2007 04:50:31 PM · #38 |
I only see two options.
1. She pays you and thats the end of it.
2. If she doesn't want to pay your price, give her any mony back and don't give her prints. Don't negociate it just cheapens your work and business. The time to negociate was before you started shooting.
I think that if you didn't have a price set at the beginning, its a bit harder to sort this out and find a happy middle ground. Luckily you have the photos not her. You should stay firm and just walk away if she doesn't give you exactly what amount you asked for.
So use it as a learning experience and move on to the next gig. Make sure you have a contract or charge $xxx for the sitting fee and have a prints price list they can see.
More than likely they are just trying to play the game. Your young and new to photography so they are going to try to bargain. Say no thanks and walk away. They will probably change their mind and buy the prints.
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07/11/2007 04:55:32 PM · #39 |
One of the most valuable thing I have learned about sales is the power of "walking away" as in, if you just say, ok, no pictures for you, and just walk away on the deal, youll have a phone call in the next few days with them coming to your terms. Its the moment that they realize they have blown the negotiation is when they will do what you want them to.
Selling copiers (sales is sales whether its hotdogs, pictures, or copiers, its all the same), if I didnt like the way a negotiation was going, I would say,"Good luck, thanks for the opportunity, but it appears to me that you are mre interested in the cost, as opposed to the quality, so I might suggest you talk to ____ (in the photog situation, you can use Sears or K-mart), because they will be able to meet your goal.", get up, and walk out the door. Sometimes I would have them chasing me down in the parking lot, other times I would have a voicemail waiting for me by the time I got back to the office.
Its all a power play. |
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07/11/2007 05:03:50 PM · #40 |
thanks for even more advice! you guys rock! as frustrating as this is... its really fun learning about all this business stuff! i've never thought of my young self as much as a business person before but this is kinda exciting and challenging. i like it :)
Message edited by author 2007-07-11 17:04:22. |
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07/11/2007 05:05:46 PM · #41 |
| I completely understand that you don't want to lose the time and effort you've already put into this ... but sit down and think about how you're going to feel if you cave into her ridiculous prices ... if it were me, I'd always carry that resentment and it would nag at me for a long time ... personally, I'd rather walk away with no deal and know that I was true to myself and my work than to let someone talk my images worth down ... but, ultimately you're the only one who has to be ok with your decision ... make sure that you're comfortable with it and that you'll have no regrets ... good luck!! |
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07/11/2007 05:15:43 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by pamelasue:
I completely understand that you don't want to lose the time and effort you've already put into this ... but sit down and think about how you're going to feel if you cave into her ridiculous prices ... if it were me, I'd always carry that resentment and it would nag at me for a long time ... personally, I'd rather walk away with no deal and know that I was true to myself and my work than to let someone talk my images worth down ... but, ultimately you're the only one who has to be ok with your decision ... make sure that you're comfortable with it and that you'll have no regrets ... good luck!! |
yes. im starting to really understand the principle of this. thanks for the great advice :) much appreciated for sure :) |
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07/11/2007 05:28:12 PM · #43 |
I assume no written contract.....
- I would not drop the price and would keep the prints for a demo book; you would have to refund any $ you have from them because it's their word, your word which always ends badly.
- Due to the mis-understanding, I would throw in a few freebies - extra prints or something but not change the price.
- Why did you post 50 of them? I would do a quick proof and do the post on the ones they picked.
- I would NOT send then uncorrected images, I would not want bad images out there.
- Get some written contracts for the next job with clear price lists up front and move on.
Message edited by author 2007-07-11 17:29:34.
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07/11/2007 06:25:01 PM · #44 |
Sounds like they are pushing you to act without thinking because they see you are either young or fear for your integrity. When dealing with a PITA the last thing you want to do is allow them to corner you into an ultimatum. You are equals - in fact, you have more control in this situation.
Their money is good anywhere, but the money is not the problem. If they want to spend their money and time elsewhere, try to arrange scheduling again for all their relatives, etc., then they have to consider that cost as well. That is, in effect, a deposit that they made when they said they wanted you to work for them.
Your skills, on the other hand, are yours - and while you will work with them that is the ONLY factor that counts - who cares about age! who cares about your experience! They like the photos - that was their mistake really, in saying so. They cannot really bring up any other factors to lower the price. NEVER QUESTION YOUR SKILL AT THIS POINT - WE ARE ALL OUR WORST CRITIC. I think this is why a number of folks who do portraits price their images to account for general editing practices... and then tack on special treatments as extra. It's less to bill for... despite the amount.
I agree with what others have said regarding not lowering prices, not caving in - BUT - in addition I'd draw it out... especially if this job isn't putting you in the red. Let them work through the inconvenience they have created by being difficult. You've done your part - it's time for them to own up to their part.
Send them an invoice at Net 30. If they call and try to talk it down, tell them that you broke down the rates - here's the industry rate for comparison in this area - here are the rates of several competitors with big ads in the yellow pages... Never be nasty - be cordial and professional. If you ever have to step into small claims for larger outstanding invoices it is excellent practice.
If they need a payment plan - offer it but get terms in writing.
It's possible they are dishonest. A dishonest person walks into a deal accepting a given rate but never intends to pay it. They will ask you several times to compare your rates, find loopholes, etc. I have even had a customer draft up a fake catalog with a cheaper price in order to talk my rates down.
Dishonest clients aren't worth the time - I used to think they'd damage my rep but usually they are dishonest in all of their dealings - you get no referrals from them, they are not repeat customers. Write it off as a business loss or as someone else said, make it a print/demo book and write it off as an advertising expense.
Your time as an entrepreneur is best spent doing two things a) getting new clients, b) maintaining relationships with loyal customers so they will refer new clients. Otherwise, take your hourly rate and multiply it by the hours you are spending in a dead-end situation... that's the reality of non-billable hours that are already eating into a bill you have not even collected yet - and may not collect.
Especially over $200! How many hours have you spent dealing with this person trying to get the money?! At least your cost is mostly in time, gas and costco development costs. Convert it to an advertising cost and move on. It not just your skills, but your time, that is valuable. |
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07/11/2007 06:56:54 PM · #45 |
Honestly, I think it would be hard to swallow but take the $200 and the knowledge you learned and get ready for your next photo shoot. The best lessons are the ones that hurt the most. $100 isn't that painful (relatively speaking) and you got the job done with some new knowledge to go with it.
I think trying to get the whole $300 isn't worth the time and effort. Put this one behind you and move forward.
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07/11/2007 07:08:45 PM · #46 |
As a retired professional photographer, let me just say I think this situation is ludicrous. I have never in my life done a job for as little as OP was asking, and I was working in the 1960's facripesake. If I were OP I would just flush the whole thing down the toilet. I'd NEVER let them have the prints at such a ridiculous lowball price as they are asking for.
R.
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07/11/2007 07:27:31 PM · #47 |
A few months ago my wife and I went to a photo session organized through and at our church for the church directory. The church hired professional photographer offered a free 8x10 and everything else at their standard rate. They had a 15 minute time slot for each group and took standard portrait shots in front of a screen. We picked out a package of 3 of the shots with 1 11x14, 2 8x10, about 8 5x7 and several sheets of wallet prints. No frames or anything else. It was about $500.
You are offering them a heck of a deal with all the time you have invested in it. I would not budge on the $300. At the Costco print rate maybe you could offer a few more pictures for the misunderstanding. The alternative would be to tell them they can't have the pictures they love so much at any cost, and chalk it up to the cost of experience and business education. I guess you have learned that in the future all pricing needs to be agreed upon in writing before you do any work. |
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07/11/2007 07:39:40 PM · #48 |
I have neighbors that do this kind of stuff all the time. They go to dinner and complain about everything to get at least part of the meal for free. They complain about their lawn man several times a year to get a discount. They feel they are entitled to getting things cheaper then everyone else. To them it is a game and they love to play it and they love to brag about it.
I would tell them they need to pay the already discounted $300.00 and set a time and date for their decision. After that I wouldn't sell them for any price.
If you really want to bust their B**ls then have the photos made into a really nice coffee table book and make sure everyone who knows them sees the book and how great it looks. You will get a ton a work and something that is sometimes better then money.....Satisfaction
Just my 2 cents |
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07/11/2007 08:14:59 PM · #49 |
Ditto all of that.
To put an end date on the whole fiasco, give them a drop dead date. Remind them what the price is, re-state you offer of free prints or whatever (NO DISCOUNTS!) then tell them the offer is good until some date, after which the photos will no longer be available, period.
At $300, they're getting a helluva deal and they should be grateful, not trying to take advantage of you for another $100.
Originally posted by robs:
I assume no written contract.....
- I would not drop the price and would keep the prints for a demo book; you would have to refund any $ you have from them because it's their word, your word which always ends badly.
- Due to the mis-understanding, I would throw in a few freebies - extra prints or something but not change the price.
- Why did you post 50 of them? I would do a quick proof and do the post on the ones they picked.
- I would NOT send then uncorrected images, I would not want bad images out there.
- Get some written contracts for the next job with clear price lists up front and move on. |
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07/11/2007 09:08:11 PM · #50 |
wow lotso bad advice
be smart
T |
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