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06/27/2007 12:46:51 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
You can get the same results by applying less sharpening. If you sharpen and it looks like you went too far, undo and try it again with less sharpening, repeat until you get it right. This isn't a magic button that allows us to do something otherwise illegal, it's just a shortcut that allows us to try out varying degrees of adjustment more quickly.
I agree with you that it makes functional sense to allow us to work with a single duplicate of the BG layer in Basic editing, and to fade that layer then merge into the BG layer when we have it right, but that has been suggested before and SC doesn't think it's a good idea to allow exceptions to the no-pixel-layers-allowed rule.
R. |
OK, I guess my ultimate question is this: Is the result exactly the same using your fade option as it is just using a lesser amount of sharpening. My intuition tells me that it's not as you are getting a blend of sharpened and unsharpened with the fade approach. But I will happily acknowledge that I have nothing to base this on, and will remain open minded to those who do. |
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06/27/2007 01:25:35 PM · #27 |
I am using Photoshop Elements, so some of this terminology is completely foreign to me.
If I am reading correctly, I am able to use an adjustment layer (Levels, Brightness/Contrast, Hue/Saturation, Gradient Map, Photo Filter, Invert, Threshold, Posterize).
I am then able to adjust the Opacity slider anywhere between 0% and 100%.
I am NOT able to change the blending mode away from the setting called "Normal" though.
Is this correct ?
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06/27/2007 01:26:23 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by kashi:
I am using Photoshop Elements, so some of this terminology is completely foreign to me.
If I am reading correctly, I am able to use an adjustment layer (Levels, Brightness/Contrast, Hue/Saturation, Gradient Map, Photo Filter, Invert, Threshold, Posterize).
I am then able to adjust the Opacity slider anywhere between 0% and 100%.
I am NOT able to change the blending mode away from the setting called "Normal" though.
Is this correct ? |
Correct. |
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06/27/2007 01:34:07 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by pamelasue:
this whole thread is making my head spin ... apparently I need a photoshop class! |
Pamela,
Open Photoshop and look at the menu bar. See the "edit" menu heading? Click on that and see (probably grayed out) a "fade" command.
Now open an image and go to "filters/sharpen/unsharp mask" and apply some really aggressive sharpening, way too strong. Click the button to apply it.
See your image? Way too sharp right? So before you do anything else, go to the 'edit" menu and the command will say "fade unsharp mask"; click that and you get a slider to reduce the amount of sharpening applied. Slide the slider to the left while looking at the image, and watch it change.
You can do this with virtually every photoshop adjustment you make.
R. |
Thanks Robert ... I understand the fade thing ... usually I just use the preview and adjust the amount of USM I want before clicking OK ... the part I'm confused about is the adjustment layer/opacity thing ... I haven't played with layers too much yet ... just usually work with the base image ... I guess I'm not sure what the advantages/disadvantages are .. |
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06/27/2007 01:40:53 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by pamelasue:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by pamelasue:
this whole thread is making my head spin ... apparently I need a photoshop class! |
Pamela,
Open Photoshop and look at the menu bar. See the "edit" menu heading? Click on that and see (probably grayed out) a "fade" command.
Now open an image and go to "filters/sharpen/unsharp mask" and apply some really aggressive sharpening, way too strong. Click the button to apply it.
See your image? Way too sharp right? So before you do anything else, go to the 'edit" menu and the command will say "fade unsharp mask"; click that and you get a slider to reduce the amount of sharpening applied. Slide the slider to the left while looking at the image, and watch it change.
You can do this with virtually every photoshop adjustment you make.
R. |
Thanks Robert ... I understand the fade thing ... usually I just use the preview and adjust the amount of USM I want before clicking OK ... the part I'm confused about is the adjustment layer/opacity thing ... I haven't played with layers too much yet ... just usually work with the base image ... I guess I'm not sure what the advantages/disadvantages are .. |
You can leave the adjustment layer in place as you make other adjustments on other adjustment layers: you can have one for hue/sat, one for selective color, one for levels, one for curves, and so forth. Each of them can be toggled on and off to see what effect they are adding. Each of them can be faded from 100% to 0% to mute the effect. Each adjustment can be reopened and readjusted to change the quality of the effect.
In other words, it's a very flexible way to edit; really, the only sensible way to edit. if you apply adjustments to the base layer, you have to erase every adjustment that came after the one you want to change, if you decide to change one later. That's even assuming you have your history set deep enough to go that far back.
Try it yourself;instead of doing hue/sat on the base layer, go to "layers/new adjustment layer/hue-saturation" and click that; you'll get the same dialogue box, you make the same adjustment, but when you accept it, you get a new layer over the base layer in the layers palette which you can then play with to your heart's content or even throw away if you choose to.
R.
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06/27/2007 01:42:32 PM · #31 |
| Yeah, Bear is right. Give it a try and do as he suggested. Turn your adjustment layers on/off to see the affect. Also, even though it's not legal in basic the ability to "paint" on the layer mask created with an adjustment layer, gives you even more control. |
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06/27/2007 01:49:11 PM · #32 |
| Yeah, duplicating later and setting opacity, or doing the adjustment layer and edit/fade accomplish the same thing. I got DQ'd because of this once, where the legal way gave the exact same results. Mine was a gaussian blur, and I corrected myself and removed the layer, but forgot it in my PP steps when I uploaded originally, so just be careful. I was rightfully DQ'd, because although both ways accomplish the same thing, one is legal, and one is not :) |
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06/27/2007 01:59:23 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by pamelasue:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by pamelasue:
this whole thread is making my head spin ... apparently I need a photoshop class! |
Pamela,
Open Photoshop and look at the menu bar. See the "edit" menu heading? Click on that and see (probably grayed out) a "fade" command.
Now open an image and go to "filters/sharpen/unsharp mask" and apply some really aggressive sharpening, way too strong. Click the button to apply it.
See your image? Way too sharp right? So before you do anything else, go to the 'edit" menu and the command will say "fade unsharp mask"; click that and you get a slider to reduce the amount of sharpening applied. Slide the slider to the left while looking at the image, and watch it change.
You can do this with virtually every photoshop adjustment you make.
R. |
Thanks Robert ... I understand the fade thing ... usually I just use the preview and adjust the amount of USM I want before clicking OK ... the part I'm confused about is the adjustment layer/opacity thing ... I haven't played with layers too much yet ... just usually work with the base image ... I guess I'm not sure what the advantages/disadvantages are .. |
You can leave the adjustment layer in place as you make other adjustments on other adjustment layers: you can have one for hue/sat, one for selective color, one for levels, one for curves, and so forth. Each of them can be toggled on and off to see what effect they are adding. Each of them can be faded from 100% to 0% to mute the effect. Each adjustment can be reopened and readjusted to change the quality of the effect.
In other words, it's a very flexible way to edit; really, the only sensible way to edit. if you apply adjustments to the base layer, you have to erase every adjustment that came after the one you want to change, if you decide to change one later. That's even assuming you have your history set deep enough to go that far back.
Try it yourself;instead of doing hue/sat on the base layer, go to "layers/new adjustment layer/hue-saturation" and click that; you'll get the same dialogue box, you make the same adjustment, but when you accept it, you get a new layer over the base layer in the layers palette which you can then play with to your heart's content or even throw away if you choose to.
R. |
OK, that makes sense ... I hate having to delete all of the editing if I choose to remove or change something previously used ... Thanks for taking the time to clarify ... I'll have to mess with that when I get home ... |
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06/27/2007 02:01:21 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by wsl:
Yeah, duplicating later and setting opacity, or doing the adjustment layer and edit/fade accomplish the same thing. I got DQ'd because of this once, where the legal way gave the exact same results. Mine was a gaussian blur, and I corrected myself and removed the layer, but forgot it in my PP steps when I uploaded originally, so just be careful. I was rightfully DQ'd, because although both ways accomplish the same thing, one is legal, and one is not :) |
I forsee a few DQ's coming my way since I'm not very good with this stuff yet ... I'm sure that I'll do something illegal onaccounta my lack of knowledge ... |
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06/27/2007 02:33:23 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by pamelasue:
I forsee a few DQ's coming my way since I'm not very good with this stuff yet ... I'm sure that I'll do something illegal onaccounta my lack of knowledge ... |
It doesn't have to happen; as long as you use ONLY adjustment layers in normal (default) mode, you are clean. If you have any questions om a particular shot, just PM site council and they'll set you straight.
R.
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06/27/2007 02:38:24 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
If you have any questions om a particular shot, just PM site council and they'll set you straight.
R. |
Don't PM, open a Ticket (Help > Contact) -- that way we can all see it at once, and you can attach the image(s) in question. PM's go to SC members' personal email and may or may not be seen on a timely basis. |
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06/27/2007 03:01:39 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
After you make any change in Photoshop, you can immediately (before doing anything else) go to "edit/fade" and fade the opacity of the step you just did. This is effectively the same as duplicating the base layer, applying the change, then fading the duplicate layer.
For example: in my normal workflow I'd duplicate the BG layer, apply sharpening to that duplicate layer, and fade the layer opacity slightly to fine-tune the sharpening. In basic editing, where pixel-containing layers are not allowed, I'd sharpen on the base layer and then used "edit/fade" to accomplish the same thing. Doing it on duplicate layers is somewhat preferable because you can fudge it back and forth as often as you want, whereas the "edit/fade" option is a one-time-only step, but the end result is the same.
R. |
Why don't you just create your adjustment layer and sharpen background layer and set opacity (as opposed to creating a duplicate BG layer and applying adjustment layer)?
Edited for clarity.
Message edited by author 2007-06-27 15:32:30. |
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06/27/2007 03:23:42 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
For example: in my normal workflow I'd duplicate the BG layer, apply sharpening to that duplicate layer, and fade the layer opacity slightly to fine-tune the sharpening. |
Why don't you just create your adjustment layer and sharpen and set opacity (as opposed to creating a duplicate BG layer and applying adjustment layer)? |
You apply sharpening to the image layer, not to an adjustment layer.
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06/27/2007 03:33:38 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
For example: in my normal workflow I'd duplicate the BG layer, apply sharpening to that duplicate layer, and fade the layer opacity slightly to fine-tune the sharpening. |
Why don't you just create your adjustment layer and sharpen and set opacity (as opposed to creating a duplicate BG layer and applying adjustment layer)? |
You apply sharpening to the image layer, not to an adjustment layer. |
Yeah, that's what I meant. I edited above for clarity. |
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06/27/2007 03:35:56 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
Yeah, that's what I meant. I edited above for clarity. |
Still confusing me. He's not creating an adjustment layer at all. He's sharpening one pixel bearing layer, than adjusting opacity to get the sharpness to his liking.
There is no adjustment layer on top of that. |
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06/27/2007 04:37:38 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by LanceW:
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
Yeah, that's what I meant. I edited above for clarity. |
Still confusing me. He's not creating an adjustment layer at all. He's sharpening one pixel bearing layer, than adjusting opacity to get the sharpness to his liking.
There is no adjustment layer on top of that. |
OOPS, now I realize my mistake. I forgot that sharpening is not an adjustment layer. Nevermind!
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06/27/2007 05:16:04 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
After you make any change in Photoshop, you can immediately (before doing anything else) go to "edit/fade" and fade the opacity of the step you just did. This is effectively the same as duplicating the base layer, applying the change, then fading the duplicate layer. |
i use edit/fade all the time for lots of different edits. it's a good way to mute colors, get just the right amount of gaussian blur, just the right amount of sharpening. it's so much a part of my regular workflow that i use it in both basic and advanced challenges.
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06/27/2007 05:38:02 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by sher:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
After you make any change in Photoshop, you can immediately (before doing anything else) go to "edit/fade" and fade the opacity of the step you just did. This is effectively the same as duplicating the base layer, applying the change, then fading the duplicate layer. |
i use edit/fade all the time for lots of different edits. it's a good way to mute colors, get just the right amount of gaussian blur, just the right amount of sharpening. it's so much a part of my regular workflow that i use it in both basic and advanced challenges. |
Just to mention it again, this is not an option in Photoshop Elements. In Elements, for a Basic Challenge, these things need to be worked and re-worked in the dialog box for fine tuning. In the "normal" Elements workflow (or under Advanced) duplicate layers can be created and "faded" (opacity lowered). It seems that those who use these features in advanced versions of Photoshop believe they are simply "shortcuts" that have little difference in the final result. I'm a bit skeptical about that but until I have a better version of PS I'll just have to work like a Neanderthal I guess. (Sure would be nice to use a dupe layer to do my sharpening with fine tuning of fading, though.) |
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06/27/2007 07:19:47 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
It seems that those who use these features in advanced versions of Photoshop believe they are simply "shortcuts" that have little difference in the final result. I'm a bit skeptical about that but until I have a better version of PS I'll just have to work like a Neanderthal I guess. (Sure would be nice to use a dupe layer to do my sharpening with fine tuning of fading, though.) |
Yeah, this is my concern that I raised earlier but seems to have been missed. If I perform USM on the base image at an absurdly high amount and then fade it using Bear's method, it is really the same as if I just used a lesser amount of USM? I'm unclear how this is the case given that USM has several settings (amount, radius, threshold). What exactly is being faded?
If it's not the same, and instead is the same as duplicating the layer and then fading it, I would think that this would be a violation of the Basic rules. I only have Elements so I can't verify it. Can anyone post an example that demonstrates this? |
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06/27/2007 07:31:32 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by pamelasue:
this whole thread is making my head spin ... apparently I need a photoshop class! |
Pamela,
Open Photoshop and look at the menu bar. See the "edit" menu heading? Click on that and see (probably grayed out) a "fade" command.
Now open an image and go to "filters/sharpen/unsharp mask" and apply some really aggressive sharpening, way too strong. Click the button to apply it.
See your image? Way too sharp right? So before you do anything else, go to the 'edit" menu and the command will say "fade unsharp mask"; click that and you get a slider to reduce the amount of sharpening applied. Slide the slider to the left while looking at the image, and watch it change.
You can do this with virtually every photoshop adjustment you make.
R. |
bear, that's a cool tip, I never knew that. Man if I had just 1% of your knowledge my head would probably explode from overload lol. Can't wait to try that out tonight. |
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