Lighting with the 580EX (master) and 420EX (slave)

05/24/2007 12:22:38 AM · #1

I was asked how to do the lighting in this image, so I updated the image with details and thought I'd share with others as well:

The same technique is used for this picture (as with a lot of my other pictures):

Makka

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

05/24/2007 12:29:32 AM · #2

Great tips there Dave. Thanks for sharing. We actually have both of those flashes as well but haven't used them in master/slave mode as yet. Something we should experiment with more!

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

05/24/2007 12:51:58 AM · #3

Just a few more examples of using the 580 and 420 together. If anyone else wants to share examples and/or thoughts/questions along these lines, please feel free to jump in!

fotomann_forever

05/24/2007 12:53:52 AM · #4

You sir, do rocKeth! :-)

JeffDay

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

05/24/2007 12:53:55 AM · #5

Thanks Dave...very helpful

skylercall

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

05/24/2007 01:05:54 AM · #6

What is the point of moving to Manual mode in this case? Why don't you just stay in Av Mode?

mpeters

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

05/24/2007 01:18:00 AM · #7

Do you rely on E-TTL? I used the combo on a wedding reception recently, only candle lighting. It was real hard to meter correctly. If the camera locked in on the bride the flash underexposed, if it caught a dark area, the bride's dress was pure white.

05/24/2007 01:18:57 AM · #8

Originally posted by skylercall:

What is the point of moving to Manual mode in this case? Why don't you just stay in Av Mode?

When I point the camera at the sky, I end up with two things: 1) a focus lock on the clouds, and 2) an exposure lock. I want to keep the exposure but not the focus.

Now, the Canon cameras do have a separate "exposure lock", but when you use it, it fires the flashes to get a reading off of them. And since the flash output doesn't register on the sky, it would basically do a full dump of the charge on both flashes and then remember *that* setting, and I don't want that. So it's easier just to take a quick reading off the clouds in Av mode and then dial it in.

One other approach, which works just as well: Start off in manual mode with the aperture set. Then, while looking through the view finder, simply turn the shutter speed dial until you get the exposure where you want it (depending on the cloud formation and what I want, I'll go up or down from 0).

And of course, once I'm in manual mode, as the sun continues to set, I'll simply adjust my shutter speed downward by hand without ever going back and re-metering the scene in Av mode (similar to above). That first step was just to save time in figuring out the desired shutter speed. I like it when I don't have to think. :-)

Sigma 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 DC OS for Canon

05/24/2007 01:21:58 AM · #9

Originally posted by mpeters:

Yeah, I'm relying on ETTL to figure out the flash exposure.

And you are right, highly reflective objects can affect the flash exposure that ETTL calculates. When it does, I just quickly dial-in an adjustment on the back of the 580.

I find that most of the time the 580 does a pretty good job of getting the exposure right. But every situation is different, and some times it just needs a little help.

magnus

Canon EOS-30D

05/24/2007 02:16:14 AM · #10

Nowhere nearly as good as David's, but here are a few of mine taken with the exact same setup

diablo2097

Apple iPhone 5s

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 II

05/24/2007 02:22:29 AM · #11

When you swivel your 580 to point at the 420, does that mean that the entire unit is now pointing to your left?

thanks

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

05/24/2007 02:50:03 AM · #12

Originally posted by diablo2097:

When you swivel your 580 to point at the 420, does that mean that the entire unit is now pointing to your left?

The head swivels while the body remains pointed forward.

Simonjw

Canon EOS-30D

05/24/2007 04:27:54 AM · #13

Doesn't the 420 slave fire via infrared the same as the 430ex? Swivelling the head of the flash isn't likely to improve fire consistency, as I thought the signal was fired from the infrared transmitter on the non-swivelling part of the flash...

While you can fire remotely (ETTL or Manual), I'm pretty sure Canon Speedlights aren't "Optical" (triggered by flash) slaves, like other brands are.

Message edited by author 2007-05-24 04:30:12.

KiwiChris

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

05/24/2007 04:45:08 AM · #14

Nice work David...

This is the only one I can find using my 420/580 on the 10D in a similar way, just messing about outside with my Daughter.

420 sitting on the silly plastic 'foot' they come with, off to the left, 580 swivelled and pointing at it in master mode, set to not fire.

With 20/20 hind site, I think I used partial metering, which is the wrong option for the 10D, as it dosn't shift the partial point, should have used evaluative metering which would have been better, I'll try it out at some stage. Doing it the way I did gave really inconsistent results, gee, wonder why. :-).

Cheers, Me.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

05/24/2007 07:41:54 AM · #15

Originally posted by Simonjw:

All of Canon's speedlights are optically fired. But it's the light from the flash itself, not from the "infrared sensor" that triggers it. So swiveling the head to where the flash is pointing directly at the slave, definitely increases the possibility of the slave "seeing the light".

Just to clarify:

The little red box underneath the flash head serves two purposes: 1) it houses the infrared sensor (used in slave mode), and 2) in low light it emits a patterned beam of light straight at the subject which is used by the camera to help it focus. What it does not do is fire the infrared signal used to synch the flashes. That is done by the flash head itself.

Bernard_Marx

Canon EOS-40D

05/24/2007 04:35:31 PM · #16

Just a few more lesser examples. Same basic setup... which I learned from David (thanks again David!).

430EX Slave on cam left with shoot through, 580EX on cam bracket with domed Fong pointed at ceiling. Window cam right.

Key/Slave: 430EX on stand with brolly. About 45 deg. Above eyes and angled down.Fill/Master: 580EX on camera bracket. Domed Fong pointed forward.A large white reflector mounted on a stand is camera right, and very near the subject.Master:Slave ratio = 1:2. Exposure comp = 1.

Same basic ideas...

surfdabbler

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 II

05/27/2007 08:53:28 AM · #17

Hi David,

Thanks for the fantastic examples of this lighting technique. This can also be useful with EV adjustments, as you were explaining to me in another thread a few weeks ago. So, you can meter off the background, underexpose it just a stop or two to get the background scene a little darker, and then let the ETTL light the subject properly.

My wife's first comment was that the images look fake, but only because they are so good! The people in the photo know it was real, so they'll appreciate the full talent of the photographer! :) I love your work!

svavart

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

06/07/2007 06:54:26 AM · #18

great shot and nice use of the speedlites....
i was wondering.... how did you manage to use E-TTL trough the umbrella.
the sensor on the flash can't get trough it or what?
i've been using similar setup but this has been a problem...
now i hope you have some solution? :)

06/07/2007 07:16:21 AM · #19

Originally posted by svavart:

svavart

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

06/07/2007 08:31:16 AM · #20

For the slave: I'll very often have the flash body swiveled so that the body is pointing in my general direction (that way the infrared sensor is looking at me) while the head on the flash is pointing straight into the center of the umbrella.

For the master (on camera): Then the flash on my camera simply has the head swiveled to point in the general direction of the slave. I often don't want the light from it affecting the exposure anyway (and when I do, more often than not, I use a lightsphere to send the light in both directions).
Pages:

Thank you for your answer...
im a little confuse....
i can't create a picture of your setup in my head.
the sensor on the flash shots red light into the subject, thats the preflash right?
so as i understand things the sensor have to shoot that on the subject.
how do the E-TTL know what is your subject if its not sensing that?
im sorry i just don't understand this :)

Message edited by author 2007-06-07 08:32:14.

BakerBug

Canon EF 28-200mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

06/07/2007 09:04:49 AM · #21

Man... I need more disposable income.

06/07/2007 10:06:03 AM · #22

Originally posted by svavart:

the sensor on the flash shots red light into the subject, thats the preflash right?

Nope, the red light is only used for one thing: to help the camera focus in dim light. But also inside the body (where the red light is) is the infra-red sensor. So that's why I point the red box (the body) at the master, to ensure that it sees the light. When I'm inside a room this is rarely needed. But outdoors, with nothing to bounce the light around, it helps a lot.

Originally posted by svavart:

how do the E-TTL know what is your subject if its not sensing that?

The camera (not the flash) is what measure the light. "TTL" means "through the lens", meaning, the light from your flash hits the subject, bounces off and goes into the camera "through the lens". Therefore, your camera knows how much light the flash is emitting.

The camera and the flash system (one or more flashes) work together to determine how much light is needed.

So, there are really many different flashes going on at once here:

1) a sync flash from the master telling the slave to fire
2) a preflash from the master and the slave to measure the light (again, the camera does the measuring, not the flash)
3) and finally a flash from both master and slave at the "power level" computed from step #2.

Fun, huh?!? :-)

svavart

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

06/07/2007 11:20:41 AM · #23

ok i understand....
but im wondering about the pre-flash you talked about,
is that visible? my flashes only goes off once, thats when i press the shutter button.
im only wondering if im doing something wrong?