Stop voting from thumbnails and "cherry picking"

05/15/2007 04:46:11 PM · #51

Originally posted by kirbic:

To counterpoint Steve's post, let be begin by stating that I do vote, 100%, on pretty much every challenge. I take them in the order they are presented. Once finished, I will go back and tweak. The thumbs page really serves me no purpose, since after my first pass, I have things ordered by my initial vote, which is more valuable.
Cherry-picking does affect challenge results. Images that appear as "attractive" thumbs get more votes, and ones that are unattractive at that resolution get less votes. In short, cherry-picking defeats the random presentation order, which is a key feature of the DPC voting system.
Disclaimer: The above is my personal opinion.

You're right it does effects number of votes one entry may get over another but how does that effect scores which I assume is the real issue with cherry picking?

It might help to get an idea of what the average gap is between the highest number of votes received vs the lowest an entry gets in the same challenge. Looking at the three challenge results on the home page Dr. Seuss ranged from 250 votes to 230 votes. The other two challenges seem to range within 10 votes from the highest to the lowest. Mind you this was just a quick look at the top ten and the last few pages of the results on each challenge. So basically you have a 10-20 vote difference assuming this is even a result of cherry picking how does this effect scoring?

PhantomEWO

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

05/15/2007 04:47:21 PM · #52

Sorry but I really don't like giving a lot of 1's or even 2's for pictures that should never have been submitted becasue they are so bad. A thumb lets me skip them, yes it does affect the score but if they are that bad they will end up with the score they deserve. Yes I do vote 1 and 2's when deserved. Also there are some photos that I just morally oppose, giving them either an up or down vote is something I chose not to do to stay neatral. Yes some are "photo" technically great but I still reserve the right to not vote versus voting my values. I feel that a site like this should not restrict selective voting based on moral issues, bad taste, filth or just plain bad photos. Yes I think there should be an adjustment based on the average number of votes each photo received. How to do it .... heck I have no idea ;)

Message edited by author 2007-05-15 16:48:20.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/15/2007 04:49:22 PM · #53

Originally posted by swhiddon:

Originally posted by chimericvisions:
Not to mention the fact that "cherry picking" doesn't influence the scores at all. It just influences the order in which they're handed out.

I'll admit I do it on occasion. Many a shot I thought looked interesting from the thumbnail turns out not to be, and vice versa. Scores aren't effected. Quit whining.

That's bull. If it did not effect voting then why would DPChallenge.com code the voting to start at random positions? It may not effect scores it the cherry picker voted 100% of the images but if s/he does not then the pictures that DPChallenge had assigned them to start with suffers a (no vote) by cherry pickin and yes that vote could be bad or good. So I don't see us whining, we could benefit from stopping the cherry picking but we also run the chance of getting a bad vote.

I say the ones that accuse anyone of offering suggestions as being whiners are in fact the whiner. If it's not a problem either way why oppose a suggestion and name call when you do?

I'd imagine the reason DPC puts them in random order is so every photo gets a lot of votes. For example, if it wasn't random than those that voted on just 20% would all vote on the same photos leaving those on pages 3, 4, 5 in the challenge never getting a vote except from those who choose to vote 100%.

Message edited by author 2007-05-15 16:50:12.

goc

Apple iPhone 4

05/15/2007 04:49:43 PM · #54

Originally posted by Melethia:

Don't worry about what people say about voting - enjoy the photographs!

couldn't agree more. we all should.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

05/15/2007 04:50:18 PM · #55

Sigh. I guess I'll just have to get more attractive thumbs. And surgery is so expensive these days... how will I type while recovering??

(I skip the ones I can't vote for whatever reason as I go through the full sized images - the arrow keys are great for that! But then I generally vote 100% of challenges. If not, I vote the first however many percentage I come to before I run out of time.)

Yanko, the lack of significant differences in the number of votes probably does support the assertion that cherry-picking really doesn't hurt scores.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

05/15/2007 04:50:59 PM · #56

FWIW, if the current front page is at all representative, there's generally fewer than 20 votes difference between first and last place. At a glance, that would seem to indicate a fairly even distribution of votes.

Message edited by author 2007-05-15 16:51:27.

Jason_Cross

Nikon D50

05/15/2007 04:52:01 PM · #57

My thumbs suck.

05/15/2007 04:53:27 PM · #58

Originally posted by boomtap:

My thumbs suck.

That's strange... I thought that thumbs were usually sucked, not the other way around. ;-)

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/15/2007 04:55:30 PM · #59

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
... Maybe, if there are nudes in the challenge, you just have to restrict yourself to voting from home. ...

Well, then in most cases, I'd nearly always be voting from home because you just never know (especially if you can't see the thumbs in advance).

The suggestion I posted let's you see the thumbs, and even see and comment on the full-sized images -- just not lock in a vote.

Maybe we can make it so that flagged images will be hidden by the nude filter once they've had a comment entered, not just once they've had a vote cast or the challenge is over. That way you could hide the nudes from home first, before voting from work.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/15/2007 04:57:21 PM · #60

Originally posted by yanko:

I'd imagine the reason DPC puts them in random order is so every photo gets a lot of votes.

Correct -- it is this goal which cherry-picking the thumbs defeats.

05/15/2007 04:57:25 PM · #61

Originally posted by Rebecca:

Originally posted by boomtap:
My thumbs suck.

That's strange... I thought that thumbs were usually sucked, not the other way around. ;-)

[off topic]

You have a graphic in your signature which just shows up as an outline (no image) on my end. Is it working on your end? Just wondering if I'm having a problem or not with it being blocked.

05/15/2007 04:59:59 PM · #62

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Rebecca:

Originally posted by boomtap:
My thumbs suck.

That's strange... I thought that thumbs were usually sucked, not the other way around. ;-)

[off topic]

You have a graphic in your signature which just shows up as an outline (no image) on my end. Is it working on your end? Just wondering if I'm having a problem or not with it being blocked.

Nah, my web host sucks. They're in the middle of a server migration and I'm in the middle of transferring to someone else. So images will be broken for a little bit but will eventually come back. :-(

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

05/15/2007 05:01:45 PM · #63

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by yanko:
I'd imagine the reason DPC puts them in random order is so every photo gets a lot of votes.

Correct -- it is this goal which cherry-picking the thumbs defeats.

You mean tries to defeat? From the looks of it each entry gets pretty much the same amount of votes when it's all said and done. Unless there are sophicated vote tracking in place I don't see how you can even distinguish the effects of cherry picking from those voting randomly but not 100%.

Jason_Cross

Nikon D50

05/15/2007 05:05:03 PM · #64

I say cherry pick. I can't see that it makes a diffrence. So what if 50 extra people don't see your image.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/15/2007 05:05:04 PM · #65

Originally posted by yanko:

You mean tries to defeat?

Isn't that even worse? I mean, am I supposed to approve of deliberate attempts to circumvent the site's stated goals, methods, and procedures?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/15/2007 05:06:13 PM · #66

Originally posted by boomtap:

I say cherry pick. I can't see that it makes a diffrence. So what if 50 extra people don't see your image.

50 fewer chances to make an impression or garner a useful comment? Have you ever seen a thread where someone complains that too many people have been looking at their photos?

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

05/15/2007 05:06:34 PM · #67

Originally posted by yanko:

You're right it does effects number of votes one entry may get over another but how does that effect scores which I assume is the real issue with cherry picking?

We can safely assume that the cherry-pickers are choosing attractive thumbs, and avoiding unattractive ones. If an image is truly good, and it also happens that the image has a very attractive thumb (not all good images do) then it will attract cherry-pickers. We can assume that most of these voters will give it a high vote, since it is a "good image." The image therefore gets more high votes than a similarly good image that does not render well in thumbnail size.

Sigma 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical HF for Canon

05/15/2007 05:08:50 PM · #68

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by yanko:
You mean tries to defeat?

Isn't that even worse? I mean, am I supposed to approve of deliberate attempts to circumvent the site's stated goals, methods, and procedures?

I'm just working with your original phrasing. I doubt anybody who cherry picks is trying to defeat anything but rather simply chooses to view images that interest them the most.

ssodell

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

05/15/2007 05:09:57 PM · #69

Okay say you only have a few minutes on the old PC or Mac. You have the thumbs available to randomly search through the photos and pick out the best you want to explore more and vote good. It is all about winning the Blue when the voting ends. Yes we all want comments for our photos that don't do so well and need feedback. But if they don't win any ribbon or get an average vote higher than 6 you know there is something wrong and must work to improve so the random cherry pickers can pick you next time!

Canon EOS-20D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

05/15/2007 05:12:29 PM · #70

A few weeks ago when this same discussion came up, I took a look at about 15 recent challenges, both member and open, because I wanted to see whether or not this was actually a problem. I made a list of how many votes each image in increments of 25 got (ie. the 1st, 25th, 50th, 75th, etc.) I would assume that if cherry-picking was an issue, the images placing at the top and at the bottom would have significantly more votes than those in the middle, right? They didn't. I'm no stats master so perhaps a math wizard wants to do a more thorough examination but this doesn't strike me as much of a problem for the time-being.

ssodell

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

Sigma 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical HF for Canon

05/15/2007 05:14:46 PM · #71

Oh and one more thing, complaining doesn't help you win the next challenge if you really want it, it only sets you back from the progress you could be making working on your next shot.

People complain at my school all the time and if they forgot about that and just pushed ahead they would finish the projects in time just like me and two others in my class who know how to finish.

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

05/15/2007 05:17:55 PM · #72

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by yanko:

You're right it does effects number of votes one entry may get over another but how does that effect scores which I assume is the real issue with cherry picking?

We can safely assume that the cherry-pickers are choosing attractive thumbs, and avoiding unattractive ones. If an image is truly good, and it also happens that the image has a very attractive thumb (not all good images do) then it will attract cherry-pickers. We can assume that most of these voters will give it a high vote, since it is a "good image." The image therefore gets more high votes than a similarly good image that does not render well in thumbnail size.

By your logic the ugly thumbs should also avoid more low scores since they aren't getting clicked on as much so I don't see how this changes the score of an entry. So some entries may have more 10s and 1s due to more total votes and others may have less 10s and 1s do to having less total votes. Given the amount of votes all entries get it's safe to say each entry gets the score it was destined to receive.

It seems the perception is because it's a prettier thumb it will get a vote it doesn't deserve and I don't see any evidence to support that and none has been put forth.

Edited for clarity.

Message edited by author 2007-05-15 17:25:32.

SDW

Canon EOS-60D

05/15/2007 05:23:35 PM · #73

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by swhiddon:

Originally posted by stdavidson:
...
"Cherry picking" is just a convenience for individuals that can't review all the images in a challenge to allow them to be able to look at the ones they want to and vote on them... nothing more, nothing less. ...

You just confirmed what I am debating. If this site is about learning and growing why convenient yourself to vote on the entries you wish to vote on. Wouldn't the site be a better learning site if you voted on entries in assigned order than just voting on the pictures you feel compelled to vote on?

I may be one of the few people that still believes DPC is a learning site, but do you seriously believe we learn significantly more by reviewing images in purely random order than if we do not? How does reviewing 100 out of 300 images in random order teach me more about photography than reviewing 100 images non-randomly?

With all due respect, reading the statement above I do feel you are one of the few people that still believes DPC is a learning site. But it seems to sound as if your only concerned with your learning not the others that need your vote and comment when you don't like their picture.

Originally posted by stdavidson:

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, just understand what is being given up and for what?... to prevent someone from glossing over images they don't have time to look at to be able to review more interesting ones?

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I will just let this statement speak for it self. "...review more interesting ones?", again the photographer that needs good feedback and votes once again - skipped.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/15/2007 05:29:36 PM · #74

I'm (a lot) better at titling than taking photos ... let's have the thumbs page just show a blank rectangle and the title until after you've gone and voted -- I bet that way my pictures will get a lot more hits than from my often-ugly thumbnails.

Message edited by author 2007-05-15 17:33:54.