Stop voting from thumbnails and "cherry picking"

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II

05/15/2007 01:56:33 PM · #27

Not to mention the fact that "cherry picking" doesn't influence the scores at all. It just influences the order in which they're handed out.

I'll admit I do it on occasion. Many a shot I thought looked interesting from the thumbnail turns out not to be, and vice versa. Scores aren't effected. Quit whining.

MikeO

Fujifilm x100

05/15/2007 01:59:29 PM · #28

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

I'm really beginning to think that ppl are getting wayyyy to serious about challenge voting. There's about 10 million other things I'd rather see happen around here other than Langdon wasting his time trying to make voting more "fair'.

These "change the voting" threads are getting ridiculous.

Agreed - whilst this is a site we all learn from it should not be taken too seriously. People whinge and moan too much on this site. Its supposed to be for fun! Relax, enjoy and chill out!
You cannot dictate to people how they vote. We have the site rules to follow and they are sufficient enough as far as I am concerned.

Mike

SDW

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

05/15/2007 02:06:14 PM · #29

Originally posted by chimericvisions:

That's bull. If it did not effect voting then why would DPChallenge.com code the voting to start at random positions? It may not effect scores it the cherry picker voted 100% of the images but if s/he does not then the pictures that DPChallenge had assigned them to start with suffers a (no vote) by cherry pickin and yes that vote could be bad or good. So I don't see us whining, we could benefit from stopping the cherry picking but we also run the chance of getting a bad vote.

I say the ones that accuse anyone of offering suggestions as being whiners are in fact the whiner. If it's not a problem either way why oppose a suggestion and name call when you do?

Jason_Cross

Nikon D50

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

05/15/2007 03:06:31 PM · #30

I always vote the shiny thumbs 8's and the less shiny 5's and the dull ones 3.

digitalknight

Mattel Barbie Photo Designer Digital Camera

05/15/2007 03:07:37 PM · #31

DPC as a major part of self-validation is a hard life to live.

Nullix

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

05/15/2007 03:07:44 PM · #32

Cherry picker here.

Sorry, I can only vote at work when nobody else is around. I don't have time to vote at home. Infact, I don't have much time to photograph for the challenges anymore.

I was only voting in challenges I participated in. Now I just vote in the less participated challenges. I don't have time to go through the 300+ images to vote and I hate not being able to vote on the winner.

If you start tweeking the way I vote by changing the presentation or forcing me to take more time, I just won't vote at all. Of course, that might be your intent.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/15/2007 03:24:54 PM · #33

Please, don't change anything.

You can't vote on thumbnails until you've already viewed and voted on every image full sized. The thumbnail view organizes images as a valuable convenience for quick cross comparisons of images for voting purposes. Forcing voters to always bring up each image full sized every time to vote degrades that process.

Some people mistakenly think that "cherry picking" is either a cheating technique and/or interfers with the outcome of voting. I does neither.

"Cherry picking" is just a convenience for individuals that can't review all the images in a challenge to allow them to be able to look at the ones they want to and vote on them... nothing more, nothing less. The need for this will become painfully obvious to those suffering through the 350+ submissions to the "Selective Destaturation II" challenge. :)

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

05/15/2007 03:29:10 PM · #34

Originally posted by boomtap:

I always vote the shiny thumbs 8's and the less shiny 5's and the dull ones 3.

I guess that explains the 4.2 score ... : )

SDW

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

05/15/2007 03:32:14 PM · #35

Originally posted by Nullix:

Cherry picker here.

...If you start tweeking the way I vote by changing the presentation or forcing me to take more time, I just won't vote at all. Of course, that might be your intent.

I do not want anyone to stop voting. I would just like to see voters vote in the order that DPChallenge has assigned them, so every entry has an opportunity to be voted on equally. I understand some people have less time than others but it would be just as fast voting in order as doing so randomly.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

05/15/2007 03:32:45 PM · #36

To counterpoint Steve's post, let be begin by stating that I do vote, 100%, on pretty much every challenge. I take them in the order they are presented. Once finished, I will go back and tweak. The thumbs page really serves me no purpose, since after my first pass, I have things ordered by my initial vote, which is more valuable.
Cherry-picking does affect challenge results. Images that appear as "attractive" thumbs get more votes, and ones that are unattractive at that resolution get less votes. In short, cherry-picking defeats the random presentation order, which is a key feature of the DPC voting system.
Disclaimer: The above is my personal opinion.

SDW

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

05/15/2007 03:40:13 PM · #37

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Please, don't change anything.

...

"Cherry picking" is just a convenience for individuals that can't review all the images in a challenge to allow them to be able to look at the ones they want to and vote on them... nothing more, nothing less. ...

You just confirmed what I am debating. If this site is about learning and growing why convenient yourself to vote on the entries you wish to vote on. Wouldn't the site be a better learning site if you voted on entries in assigned order than just voting on the pictures you feel compelled to vote on?

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

05/15/2007 03:46:51 PM · #38

I like being able to see the thumbnails before I vote because I sometimes get to vote at work, and if there is a nude, I need to know where it is, so I can skip it. :)

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/15/2007 03:50:35 PM · #39

So far my favorite compromise on this is to allow viewing of the enlarged image and commenting by clicking through from the thumbnails page, but to only allow voting from the randomized list; it could also be possible to change a previously-cast vote from the thumbnails page.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

05/15/2007 04:06:08 PM · #40

Originally posted by karmat:

I like being able to see the thumbnails before I vote because I sometimes get to vote at work, and if there is a nude, I need to know where it is, so I can skip it. :)

That's a good point. My workaround for nudes is to check the thumbnails from home, then vote on the those so they move into the voted on area at the end of the queue.

Not sure what the solution to that scenario is. Doesn't fit into Paul's (

GeneralE) last post.

ClubJuggle

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

05/15/2007 04:08:22 PM · #41

Originally posted by stdavidson:

If there was compelling evidence that cherry-picking WAS being used as a cheating technique (as an integral part of one, at least) would that change anything?

~Terry

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/15/2007 04:17:48 PM · #42

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by karmat:
I like being able to see the thumbnails before I vote because I sometimes get to vote at work, and if there is a nude, I need to know where it is, so I can skip it. :)

That's a good point. My workaround for nudes is to check the thumbnails from home, then vote on the those so they move into the voted on area at the end of the queue.

Not sure what the solution to that scenario is. Doesn't fit into Paul's ( GeneralE) last post.

Nope. But you know, I have a somewhat ambivalent attitude about tailoring the site to accomodate those who are voting on pictures while "on the clock" at another job. Not that I don't check in on the site myself sometimes, but I'm not sure it should be our official policy to encourage it. Maybe, if there are nudes in the challenge, you just have to restrict yourself to voting from home.

Maybe there could be a way to enable a "work-safe voting" option as a preference, where any flagged photos are grouped at the end of the queue (no, not at the beginning!) where they can be more easily avoided.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

05/15/2007 04:25:11 PM · #43

Originally posted by GeneralE:

... Maybe, if there are nudes in the challenge, you just have to restrict yourself to voting from home. ...

Well, then in most cases, I'd nearly always be voting from home because you just never know (especially if you can't see the thumbs in advance).

I know you addressed the workplace voting and NSFW issue a little in your last post, but I'm fairly confident in stating I'm not alone in voting while at work. It's come up in various forum threads before (on issues non-related to thumbnail voting).

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

05/15/2007 04:26:55 PM · #44

I'm karma and I vote at work.

Its the whole broadband vs. dial-up, thang, ya know. :)

05/15/2007 04:29:42 PM · #45

Originally posted by kirbic:

Cherry-picking does affect challenge results. Images that appear as "attractive" thumbs get more votes, and ones that are unattractive at that resolution get less votes. In short, cherry-picking defeats the random presentation order, which is a key feature of the DPC voting system.

Looks like you are saying "cherry picking" only affects the number of votes the more attractive images get, not the outcome of challenges. If it does affect challenge results, what statistics exist that prove it?

Is there something inherently wrong with skipping over the 'less attractive' images to see something you might actually like when you have limited time?

Must we take the concept of randomness that far?

Originally posted by swhiddon:

Originally posted by stdavidson:
...
"Cherry picking" is just a convenience for individuals that can't review all the images in a challenge to allow them to be able to look at the ones they want to and vote on them... nothing more, nothing less. ...

You just confirmed what I am debating. If this site is about learning and growing why convenient yourself to vote on the entries you wish to vote on. Wouldn't the site be a better learning site if you voted on entries in assigned order than just voting on the pictures you feel compelled to vote on?

I may be one of the few people that still believes DPC is a learning site, but do you seriously believe we learn significantly more by reviewing images in purely random order than if we do not? How does reviewing 100 out of 300 images in random order teach me more about photography than reviewing 100 images non-randomly?

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, just understand what is being given up and for what?... to prevent someone from glossing over images they don't have time to look at to be able to review more interesting ones?

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

05/15/2007 04:31:11 PM · #46

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

If there was compelling evidence that cherry-picking WAS being used as a cheating technique (as an integral part of one, at least) would that change anything?

~Terry

There is evidence? If so, what is it?

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

05/15/2007 04:31:47 PM · #47

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
If there was compelling evidence that cherry-picking WAS being used as a cheating technique (as an integral part of one, at least) would that change anything?

~Terry

There is evidence? If so, what is it?

He said IF there was .... ;o)

ClubJuggle

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

05/15/2007 04:32:31 PM · #48

Originally posted by digitalknight:

DPC as a major part of self-validation is a hard life to live.

While I encourage you to debate this suggestion on its merits, ad hominem arguments and personal attacks are neither productive nor welcome.

Thanks,
~Terry

05/15/2007 04:41:12 PM · #49

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
If there was compelling evidence that cherry-picking WAS being used as a cheating technique (as an integral part of one, at least) would that change anything?

~Terry

There is evidence? If so, what is it?

He said IF there was .... ;o)

If there is no evidence then it isn't a discussable point.

When someone proposed that the minimum voting percentage be increased from 20% to 50% to prevent cheating Terry himself argued against it because his studies indicated that more than half the "friend voters" caught had voted more than 50% of the images.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D