Studio strobes VS Sigma 500 Supers

05/14/2007 11:41:37 AM · #1

Ok, a friend of mine shot a wedding for a couple hard on cash this past weekend and he was looking for advice from me. Years ago, he used to use umbrellas and studio equipment when he was studying at an Art College in Ontario, but he's forgotten a fair bit of the technicals...

I'm the other way round, I've not done much except a fair bit of reading and quite honestly, I simply haven't gone this far yet, so beyond a few suggestions for diffusing and reading (yeah, been all over the strobist), I've been able to give rather little in the way of serious suggestions.

It's no small coincidence that this is also the next 'frontier' for me to learn about with my own camera setup, the only problem is that I'm not quite there yet with my time/finances....

Additionally, few stores around here actually have anything set up in store to look at. Most stores simply don't sell all that much pro studio lighting gear.

He shoots a 300D. If it is a simple issue of picking up some Sigma units, I see that we could grab a couple each and have some really great versatility if we wanted to shoot as a team. This would also help control costs somewhat and would allow a great deal more mobility.

So we are looking at a few different options. Here are the basics:

#1 Full on studio setup - slightly older equipment... Optical slave units on stands with umbrellas. Plug directly into the wall. Shoot manual everything and set lighting levels via physical measurements of distance.

Suitable for indoor shoots which are fully suitable for him.
Equipment is a bit hard to get due to poor activity in the second hand market here in Taiwan and quality may be a questionable factor as well.

Power seems a bit low... New units that cost a fair bit here are only 180W output (around 450 USD per stand/light/umbrella), older units for a third of that output more than 200W. My personal feeling is that this is rather low, particularly when shooting in a fluorescent lit indoor area... (will have to discuss lighting color temperatures in greater detail with him later)

#2 Mobile studio setup using Sigma 500DG Supers (2x each for a total of 4, possibly 3x each for a total of 6) and cheap, light tripods as stands - new equipment, warranties, greater versatility all over the place, but ultimately less power. Would require a big fat bag of AA batteries... I've also heard that rechargeables are not a great choice as they don't allow full power flow to prevent damage that would affect long-term use... Have heard this from 4 sources now, 3 of which are pro photogs, one of which is a battery retailer. Not really confident that it's true, but it does seem to make sense. Additional benefits include FP mode, and easy portability. That AF assist lamp looks nice too... those flicker flashes are really distracting.

My core question here is: are those Sigma units going to put out enough light to really compare? I can't seem to find any info on what their power output is compared to the power output of studio lights.

I'm going to guess it isn't much... If this is the case, it seems like the studio setup is going to net more power by a long shot...

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

05/14/2007 10:53:08 PM · #2

bump

fotomann_forever

05/14/2007 11:02:54 PM · #3

There is an alternative that may be even better.

SP-systems Excalibur

It can go AC or DC and functions just like any other studio strobe. Kits like the Excaliber are probably going to be very comparable in price as going with Sigma (or other) flash guns.

Message edited by author 2007-05-14 23:03:49.

wavelength

Nikon D300

05/14/2007 11:30:49 PM · #4

On the batteries issue, well, what else would you plan to do? Carry an extension cord around? It's either AA's with the flashes, or carry around AB's vagabond battery packs, which are a bit heavier.

The guy at Strobist relies pretty heavily on his flashes, and has the whole site dedicated to teaching it to you.

The Sigma's should be powerful enough, but they don't have PC-sync ports if I remember so you'd have to get a different adapter if you ever went wireless.

If you buy Canon flashes, they have the CP-E3 that reduced the recycle time by about 67%, and increases the number of available full-power flashes by 4x.

Message edited by author 2007-05-14 23:32:09.

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

05/15/2007 09:36:47 AM · #5

wavelength - thank you for reading my post.

please note that I have gone over the strobist a few times. Materials to buy are not quite so easily obtained around here and are extremely costly to have shipped from the states. Local pro shops charge a pretty significant premium for anything studio.

Also please note that my friend is looking for a studio type setup largely for indoor studio type work indoors. Extension cords would not be an issue.

Regarding the comment 'the Sigmas should be powerful enough', I would like to know how to compare them to studio lights. Guide numbers are used for flashes, but watts and watt seconds are used for studio lights... 'should be powerful enough' just isn't specific enough.

I do realize that the guy at the Strobist uses them to great effect, but that doesn't really answer my question.

I cannot find any information on PC sync availability on the Sigma flash units. I'd be rather surprised if this was unavailable to be honest. I have a cheapo slave flash and it has a sync cable... kinda weird that a flagship model wouldn't have this...

Anyone else care to comment on this?

I had not heard about Canon's CP-E3, and while it is relatively affordable, I am not so sure that I would use it. Tough to say.

Does anyone know about battery packs for the Sigma line? I've seen a few comments on google regarding those that have drilled a small hole in their battery door, but can't seem to narrow the search down with google to find anything specific. Not really sure that it's a huge deal, but it might be handy.

Oddly, the searches also informed me that rechargeable batteries actually recycle the flash faster than alkalines... go figure...?

wavelength

Nikon D300

05/15/2007 11:12:45 AM · #6

If you listen to the guys at photo.net, apparently there is no good way to measure the actual guide numbered output. Studio strobes use Ws because the reflector or modifier you use will change the guide numbers.

Thanks for asking the question, I learned me something today ;)

Photo.net thread 1

Photo.net thread 2

From the B&H mini lighting guide: "Choosing equipment solely on its watt second rating will not give a true representation of its light producing capability. The quality and optimization of the design of the flash tube and reflectors contribute significantly to a systemâ��s overall performance.

It is impossible to accurately assess the quantity and quality of a system until the stored energy in its capacitors are converted to usable light in the flash tube and focused by the reflector on the subject. The narrower the angle and the more polished the reflector, the more light will be directed toward the subject."

Link

pix-al

Canon EOS-5D

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

05/15/2007 11:31:27 AM · #7

I use a pair of old nikons and Ebay wireless triggers "A la strobist".

Not done any serious work with them, but have played about indoors a bit. They produce a fair bit of light as a pair, especially if both set on full power.
I suppose it depends what you want them for. If you want to be able to use them at Weddings for example, then surely you will only be requiring fill light, so high power is not so necessary?
Indoors, if you want to go for the white-out studio look, then you will be able to achieve this, though may possibly need to open up the lens a little compared to the aperture setting you would use with a proper studio set up, to get enough light?

This shot of mine (not the best, but available in my profile...) was in my living room with the two flashes on half power. Camera settings were 1/125 at F5.6 ISO 100, so plenty of scope to get even more light onto the sensor at full power and a slower shutter...

Nusbaum

Fujifilm X-T1

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

05/15/2007 12:18:51 PM · #8

I cannot give an exact answer as too the light output, but I have used my 430ex and 580ex in setups that are similar to a friend shooting with an AB800 and AB400. I don't think her lights were on full power and I was shooting at 1/4 to 1/2 power. In general I was shooting 2-3 stops slower. For example, I would be at f/4 and she was at f/11. Maybe not exact, but a little real world experience.

As to the batteries, I shot for almost 3 hours straight on Saturday at 1/2 to 1/4 on my 580EX and never exhausted the first set of batteries. The flash also had no problem keeping up with the shooting rate of my 10D (single frames).

Now the fun part... I was shooting portraits in the wood without AC power and without the weight of BIG battery to power studio strobes. Not an issue if you always shoot in the same studio. A definite advantage with any location work.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/15/2007 10:42:49 PM · #9

many thanks for the info so far.

would love to hear more about the real world performance of the sigmas especially compared to canons.

so far it looks like my friends needs diverge from my own, so i will probably end up with a different solution.

i think we are both looking to be able to shoot around f/8 indoors and outdoors.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

05/15/2007 11:35:34 PM · #10

I can't speak to the power of the AB's, but my speedotrons are vastly more powerful than any on-camera unit. I can easily get f22 for a H&S portrait using a single head with an umbrella or softbox.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/15/2007 11:41:10 PM · #11

good to know. any chance you could mention which AB's and Speedotrons you use?

when you say on-camera unit, do you mean built in flash or hotshoe?

Still unclear on the sigma super 500 pc sync port issue... is there a port?

Spork99

OM System OM-1

05/15/2007 11:51:14 PM · #12

Originally posted by eschelar:

I have the speedotron 1600 Ws Brownline pack.

When I say on-camera flash, I mean built in or hotshoe.

wavelength

Nikon D300

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

05/15/2007 11:53:25 PM · #13

Originally posted by eschelar:

Still unclear on the sigma super 500 pc sync port issue... is there a port?

The manual diagrams don't show it, and it is not mentioned therein.

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

05/16/2007 02:15:04 AM · #14

quite surprising that they would leave that out... still, seems like the wireless modes make up for it somewhat...

do the pc sync cables carry information or just the basic signal? last time i played with my sync cable there were only two elements... if that is the case, this world be simple to overcome.

Message edited by author 2007-05-16 02:16:25.

Mr_Pants

SiPix Blink

05/16/2007 03:03:05 AM · #15

Originally posted by eschelar:

PC sync cables only fire the flash. They transmit no eTTL info. To fire a flash off-camera with eTTL, you could use the Canon flash cord. It isn't terribly long, but I would imagine that one could extend it by cutting it and letting in a length of suitable multicore cable. Additionally, I think that the CP-E3 only works with 550 and 580 flashes, as these are the only ones with the suitable connector. AFAIK, it's not just an external battery pack, it's actually a second HV source.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

05/16/2007 03:08:27 AM · #16

Originally posted by wavelength:

Originally posted by eschelar:

Still unclear on the sigma super 500 pc sync port issue... is there a port?

The manual diagrams don't show it, and it is not mentioned therein.

I believe they make hotshoes with a pc sync port.

05/16/2007 03:24:53 AM · #17

they do, i have one. hence it is probably something of a non-issue for me.

not sure what the functional difference is between a battery pack and a second hv power source.

the flash cord is an interesting idea. should not be hard to make an extension of length. would be better than wireless. i am thinking about simple connectors... i feel a fun project coming up!

Mr_Pants

SiPix Blink

05/16/2007 04:25:47 AM · #18

Originally posted by eschelar:

not sure what the functional difference is between a battery pack and a second hv power source.

The external pack produces a high voltage, which feeds directly into the capacitor along with the high voltage source within the flash unit itself, thus speeding recycle times. If it were only an external battery pack providing low voltage, the whole assembly would still be solely reliant upon the high voltage circuit of the flash unit. In other words, with the external pack, recycle times can be cut quite considerably.