Feminism, are women equal yet? (short answer, no!)

05/17/2007 06:22:36 PM · #201

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by crayon:
most women-rights/feminists group do not understand that when they fight too hard for more rights for women in the workplace, they are at the same time, creating a negative side effect that defeats their fight in the first place. i'll let you people think about what it is first.

We shouldn't have to fight that hard. Obviously America and Australia are behind on some things (this and global warming policies come to mind) for how advanced and civilized we are supposed to be.

imagine if:

feminists win, resulting in more and more rights and extra benefits for women at the workplace. and it is law for employers to provide those to any female employees they have.

now, unless there is also an equity rule that requires all businesses to employ at least a certain percentage of females in their work force, the feminists would have just caused currently unemployed women to lose their attractiveness to potential employers.

things aren't always as pretty as they are on the surface.
and most people think that major countries (which are "major" because of businesses and investments from businesses) aren't working through legal holes to become who they are today.

Are you not getting that other countries do and it works? Besides not hiring women because you do not want to give them the treatment they deserve is descrimination, so women would not have attained equality in your hypothetical.

I don't know what you mean by legal holes. Again. Other countries treat women much better than here and the economy isn't coming crashing down and there is no mass female unemployment. Stop trying to say that if things become as they should that the sky will fall. It will still be there tomorrow.

05/17/2007 06:29:46 PM · #202

Originally posted by pcody:

This is the problem I see in this debate. People look at "society" as a single unit that must be made equal, while ignoring the segments of that society other than man/woman in this debate, in other places black/white and in yet others something else. Society isn't just a great big ball that is isolated with just the two segments. There are always many different forces acting on any given situation in the community.
It's sort of like the voting system here at DPC. Most agree that a picture gets the vote it deserves. So lets say that at this moment people fill the roles that they fill because that best serves the society. If the roles become artificial or forced, can society sustain them? But, if people in society really feel that something doesn't fit anymore, will they move into roles that better reflect how they feel? And wouldn't that be longer lasting than a forced change?
Someone started a thread about her workplace (sorry). She said her boss kept telling her she was doing a good job, she was expecting a bonus, and then didn't get it. Her boss was a woman. Then someone said, if her boss was a man, would she consider it discrimination. I thought that was pretty meansprited at first. Then I thought about it some more. Look at the dynamics. Monica backed down and waved it off as a small mistake on her bosses part. Her boss had kids worked hard etc. But this is the thing. I think Monica justified the actions of her boss because she was a woman. So project this to society as a whole. If women don't hold women accountable, who is going to change? How can we expect men to change if we don't change ourselves?
Another thought is, if a woman is aware of the struggle for equality, does that make her less likely to aggressivly protect her rights when another woman is involved in a work situation? And could this be one of the reasons that in all these years, I took these same classes in 1974, there hasn't been much progress?

You know what, that question was mean spirited. I didn't "back off" to defend a woman. The post was about the CORPORATION, not about my boss, she has no control over if I get the bonus or not. It was her flub not noticing I didn't qualify and thinking I did, but it's the corporate that sets the standards. When I did the innitial post I was reall distraught, it had litterally JUST happened. After that I had time to cool off.

So please don't assume these things about me. That post had nothing to do with my feminist ideals. And again I should point out that I'm not in here ranting about how society has done ME wrong. I want to talk about women in general. I DO hold women acountable that should be. My mother for example started me on chores at around 9 or 10. My brother... still does nothing and he's 16. When I bring this up she says "he's a boy". I do not let her slide because she is a woman, or my mother. I'm past this as I do not live at home any more but I still don't like the gender roles she placed upon us.

My boss however is a great woman and I don't think by defending her that I I am doing it BECAUSE she is a woman. That is really an unfair statement to myself and to her.

05/17/2007 06:43:35 PM · #203

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Seems one core problem in the US is that money is being valued over the wellbeing of the people (just look at our health care!). And that is sad, wealth is such a relative thing. I think our nation could become wealthier on the whole if it were willing to take a few innitial "setbacks" to further the health and lives of our people.

I hate the "every man for himself" mentality that often takes place. And any talk otherwise half the time you are labeled as a socialist or communist.

Don't you think it also works the other way around too? In other words if you're against universal health care as proposed by the Left you're labeled greedy regardless if you think everyone should have healthcare but just oppose how that gets done.

But you're right people in general are greedy but it's not just about money nor is it just an "American" problem. By and large we act on our own self interests regardless if we are an individual, a family, a corporation, a country or a species. I don't recall seeing all the world's nations running to Darfur to stop the violence. Why because people don't do the "right" thing because it's right. They do it because at some level they get something out of it. If you want to change things you have to make it a win win sitatuion and you most certainly don't get it accomplished by targeting just a select group of people (say the rich) to pay for everything even if you think morally and philosophically they should.

Message edited by author 2007-05-17 18:44:48.

05/17/2007 06:56:13 PM · #204

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
Seems one core problem in the US is that money is being valued over the wellbeing of the people (just look at our health care!). And that is sad, wealth is such a relative thing. I think our nation could become wealthier on the whole if it were willing to take a few innitial "setbacks" to further the health and lives of our people.

I hate the "every man for himself" mentality that often takes place. And any talk otherwise half the time you are labeled as a socialist or communist.

Don't you think it also works the other way around too? In other words if you're against universal health care as proposed by the Left you're labeled greedy regardless if you think everyone should have healthcare but just oppose how that gets done.

But you're right people in general are greedy but it's not just about money nor is it just an "American" problem. By and large we act on our own self interests regardless if we are an individual, a family, a corporation, a country or a species. I don't recall seeing all the world's nations running to Darfur to stop the violence. Why because people don't do the "right" thing because it's right. They do it because at some level they get something out of it. If you want to change things you have to make it a win win sitatuion and you most certainly don't get it accomplished by targeting just a select group of people (say the rich) to pay for everything even if you think morally and philosophically they should.

This is true. And of course it's not just and American problem but on some of the issues we have discussed, America is really on the low end of helping despite it's enormous amount of wealth. It is scary that we don't offer any paid leave to mothers out of work. That to me shows a tremendous amount of disrespect with a government that claims that it is very "pro family" and spends a great deal of time debating abortion with little help when the baby is actually born. It seems really hypocritical. If you care so much about the baby being born but don't want to offer any bit of money for when that happens.

05/17/2007 07:15:17 PM · #205

The thing is unless a popular politician makes a big deal about these issues and the media runs with it or vice versa nobody will care. The internet is quickly becoming the place where people get their information but that too is a mixed bag. So my guess is things will work themselves out like they have throughout history. When the old people die they tend to take their worst ideals with them while those entering the world get saturated with the best ideals humanity has come up with at that point and runs with it. As someone said earlier you could speed things up if you choose to be a martyr. Outside of that not sure what else to tell ya. :P

Message edited by author 2007-05-17 19:16:07.

05/17/2007 07:22:47 PM · #206

Originally posted by yanko:

lol. My boyfriend said the EXACT same thing the other day, about people dying off and taking their ideals with them and things just working themselves out.

I don't think you have to be a martyr to speed things up though. Activist yes, martyr, not always. lol. I certainly wouldn't want to become a martyr in vain. Get all the punishments and ill effects but no attention and no change... I'm assuming that would e the most likely outcome.

fotomann_forever

05/17/2007 07:30:05 PM · #207

Noooo... you're too sexy to be a martyr ;-)

05/17/2007 07:37:55 PM · #208

Originally posted by escapetooz:

lol. My boyfriend said the EXACT same thing the other day, about people dying off and taking their ideals with them and things just working themselves out.

The inherit problem with that though is then the youngsters find all sorts of new problems that need to be fixed now. So they start threads about it. :P

Originally posted by escapetooz:

I don't think you have to be a martyr to speed things up though. Activist yes, martyr, not always. lol. I certainly wouldn't want to become a martyr in vain. Get all the punishments and ill effects but no attention and no change... I'm assuming that would e the most likely outcome.

True and that is better than some of the other things on this list.

Slowest: Hey this ain't right. Oh wait American Idol is on...

Slow: This sucks and must stop. I'm going to start posting about this online and or write a letter to my congressman...

Faster: Nothing is changing! I better get something organized.

Faster still: The media isn't giving me the exposure I need for my organization. Time to open up the Casey Sheehan playbook...

Fastest: Dammit. Still no success!!!!! I better go burn myself on the White House lawn...

:P

Message edited by author 2007-05-17 19:39:00.

05/17/2007 07:38:19 PM · #209

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Noooo... you're too sexy to be a martyr ;-)

You are just BEGGING for me to call you names aren't you?

instigator. :P

05/17/2007 07:40:32 PM · #210

Leroy is strange. I thought he got castrated a while back but it seems like he's recovering back to his old self again. :P

05/17/2007 07:45:43 PM · #211

Originally posted by yanko:

Leroy is strange. I thought he got castrated a while back but it seems like he's recovering back to his old self again. :P

Castrated huh? Sorry I missed that one...

fotomann_forever

05/17/2007 07:46:41 PM · #212

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Castrated huh? Sorry I missed that one...

I'm not sorry I missed it. :-)

05/17/2007 07:48:45 PM · #213

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Some videos for those of you that are audio/visually inclined.

DISCLAIMER (not neccessary for most, only those that use every last detail against me): Some of the videos have harsh language. These videos do not stand for all of my beliefs, nor do I agree with EVERY WORD, but on the whole I find them moving and/or informative.

Slam Poetry on Rape

Interviews of Men on the Street about Feminism

Anti-Porn VS. Sex-Positive Feminists
If you are going to watch this one at all, watch the whole thing. It starts anti-porn, which I myself do not agree with and I know you in here will have a field day with it. The latter, sex-positive and the stance on porn for BOTH are really informative.

Bell Hooks on Rap

I found this one really interesting. And hey, it's about men... for all those so interested in turning this thread into men's issues.

Black Stereotyping: Maleness and Coolness

Thought I'd bring this up again. It got overshadowed in the midst of controversy.

crayon

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

05/17/2007 09:36:10 PM · #214

lets try this again. monica, open your mind for JUST a little bit, and listen. this is a suggestion to get that you wanted.

i agree with yanko that, unless there is a win-win situation, nothing will happen. cruel fact or not, money runs the world today. and if large, rich and powerful people cant justify spending more money on giving women the rights they deserved, then they just wouldn't. i suggest that, rather than keep asking for more, you should propose why instead. that might actually work. i'm serious.

Message edited by author 2007-05-17 21:52:06.

05/17/2007 09:40:34 PM · #215

Originally posted by crayon:

i agree with yanko that, unless there is a win-win situation, nothing will happen. cruel fact or not, money runs the world today. and if some large rich and powerful people cant justify spending more money on pacifying feminists, then they just wouldnt. i suggest that, rather than keep asking for more, feminists should propose why they should be given more instead. that might work. i'm serious.

your terminology is a bit disturbing to me. Women shouldn't get these rights to "pacify feminists", they should get them because it's what's right. Anyhow, I don't think companies get bothered by feminists, I'm sure they could care less.

it seems it doesn't matter what way feminists swing it, the ones that get attention are the radicals and then the level headed ones get bunched in with the rest or ignored completely. It's sad. I mean look what happened here. I think I started out very evenly and got little to no attention until attacks started flying back and forth, and now that the conversations have returned to being civil, the traffic is again low.

Not that I don't understand why. I do it too, people crave drama.

Perhaps I should throw out some radical statements that are WAAAYY out there and by the end of it maybe I can get someone to agree with the innitial thought I had that I overshot by a mile.... how bout it? lol.

Message edited by author 2007-05-17 21:42:03.

05/17/2007 09:43:35 PM · #216

All men should be put on a boat and shipped off to Greenland.

*Snarle! Rage!* I hate men, don't shave and drown babies with my lesbian partner!!!... growl.

(peaks up head) did that work?

Message edited by author 2007-05-17 21:43:50.

crayon

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

05/17/2007 10:04:12 PM · #217

nothing beats the smell of Roses.

05/17/2007 10:05:20 PM · #218

Originally posted by escapetooz:

It's sad. I mean look what happened here. I think I started out very evenly and got little to no attention until attacks started flying back and forth, and now that the conversations have returned to being civil, the traffic is again low.

Well I was here at the begining and at the end so maybe I drove them away? That happens sometimes!

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

05/17/2007 10:09:51 PM · #219

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
It's sad. I mean look what happened here. I think I started out very evenly and got little to no attention until attacks started flying back and forth, and now that the conversations have returned to being civil, the traffic is again low.

Well I was here at the begining and at the end so maybe I drove them away? That happens sometimes!

lol. well if so, thanks!

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

05/17/2007 10:26:17 PM · #220

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by LoudDog:
Monica, what should we do to make things right for you? I'm curious what changes would need to be made to satisfy you.

I don't know what you mean by this. Sounds condescending.

This isn't about satisfying me. This is about equality.

Not condescending, just curious what changes you would like to see for the sexes to be equal, in your opinion. Is it just pay and maternity leave?

Message edited by author 2007-05-17 22:27:11.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

05/17/2007 10:55:54 PM · #221

Originally posted by yanko:

... When the old people die they tend to take their worst ideals with them while those entering the world get saturated with the best ideals humanity has come up with at that point and runs with it. :P

...it might be that I am fast approaching the day when I too will be entering the "Old People" group, and it may be that I am romanticizing days gone by, but from this man's perspective the world is a much harsher place to live in today than it was even 40 years ago.

It could perhaps be argued that some of the best ideals are dying off along with the "Old People" we allude to.

Ray

05/17/2007 10:56:21 PM · #222

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by LoudDog:
Monica, what should we do to make things right for you? I'm curious what changes would need to be made to satisfy you.

I don't know what you mean by this. Sounds condescending.

This isn't about satisfying me. This is about equality.

Not condescending, just curious what changes you would like to see for the sexes to be equal, in your opinion. Is it just pay and maternity leave?

no certainly not. those just seem to be the topics that got debated.

For starters, more protection and support for rape, molestation, and domestic abuse victims. This got hammered before saying men suffered these things too so let me just add this... I'm well aware men also face these problems, but the point is these things predominantly happen to women and children and are considered "women's issues". It doesn't mean that men should be excluded from protection, obviously the laws would apply to both genders.

I'd like to see more women and minorities in positions of power. Not that they should overpower, but that the power should be at least proportionate to society so that there is correct representation. For example, if 50 percent of the US, (which i think it's actually more than that) is women why is congress only 16 percent women? This is not to say shove women into office right away that obviously would not work, but more to look at the reasons why there aren't as many women and try to work as a society to fix them and advance.

Women In Office

I'd like to see in general more of a mixing of career paths. More men in "female" jobs and more women in "male" jobs.

Labor Stats

One thing I don't think I've gone into at all yet because I knew it would start a field day is the objectification of women. I think video "Bell Hooks on Rap" I posted is a good example of what I mean. The objectification of women helps make rape and domestic abuse more common. If women are just items or objects to behold, why care if they get hurt? Obviously this is not the opinion of all men. Not even most men, however the language and attitudes towards women reflect otherwise. Think of our derogatory words towards women. Tried to somewhat categorize them together...

"hot piece of *ss"
"whore, slut, skank, loose, easy, etc, etc"
"b*tch, hag, wench, shrew, prude"
"C*nt, T*at, P**sy"

I'm sure I could keep adding and adding but I'm not thinking of many at the moment. We did this exercise in class and had a whole board and a half of derogatory statements towards women. We did this for men too and got only about half the board filled, and most of the words used against men are comparing them to women or homosexuals (who are seens as "like women") or are knocks to the mother. I have illustrated this before but I think it got missed.

comparisons to women
"p*ssy, pansy, B*tch, douche bag, etc"

allustions to or comparisons to homosexuality
"c*ck sucker, *ss hole" etc.

knocks at mother

"bastard, mother F**ker, son of a b*tch"

and the only one we could think of that was directed specifically at men without fitting into the other categories.

"d*ck"

of course this can be disputed and is not a difinitive list, just an example of the way women are viewed as less than desirable. If we have sex we are sluts, if we don't we are prude.

There is more but I can't wrap my brain around all of it at once. there is just too much. I could go on forever about other contries too. I don't quite know enough but obviously there are places far worse than the US (australia, canada, etc) where the women are far more oppressed.... I tried reading the memoir "Reading Lolita in Tehran" but I couldn't get through it, I was crying every other page.

05/17/2007 11:01:09 PM · #223

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by yanko:
... When the old people die they tend to take their worst ideals with them while those entering the world get saturated with the best ideals humanity has come up with at that point and runs with it. :P

...it might be that I am fast approaching the day when I too will be entering the "Old People" group, and it may be that I am romanticizing days gone by, but from this man's perspective the world is a much harsher place to live in today than it was even 40 years ago.

It could perhaps be argued that some of the best ideals are dying off along with the "Old People" we allude to.

Ray

By harsher, how do you mean? I think it's all a matter of perspective. In any one lifetime things can go in and out of good times and bad times.

At any second the world can become very harsh in the blink of an eye. I always think about the roaring 20s settling off into the depression. It's crazy how quickly things can crash.

RayEthier