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05/15/2007 12:42:29 AM · #126 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
um excuse me what? all people need protection from murderers. Your point is lost on me. |
it's amusing that when a man kills a woman, he will be almost instantly be seen as a murderer; whereas when a woman kills a man, she would likely be seen of doing it for self-defense. that is the type of world we live in today. how can we change this? have more female murderers. |
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05/15/2007 12:43:53 AM · #127 |
When crayon ogles men, women will have equality.
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05/15/2007 12:20:57 PM · #128 |
Women are just.. Overpriveleged. I'm sorry, but it's truth. This isn't referring to all women, just every woman I have ever met. Why should women get equal pay if they can't perform the same tasks? Every woman my dad has ever hired on his construction crew did nothing but complain the whole time. They had every excuse they could think of for getting a few extra minutes on their break, not having to lift heavy things, or getting an extra water bottle. They just don't work. They just.. Don't. I don't know how to say it without sounding like a little prick, but it's true! Women can't handle as much stress as men can, but they still want to be rewarded as though they can handle all the stress in the world.
Blurgh. |
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05/15/2007 12:22:38 PM · #129 |
Nice shiny floors, honey. Be a dear and fetch me a sammich.
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05/15/2007 01:03:22 PM · #130 |
Originally posted by Beautiful-Joe:
Women are just.. Overpriveleged. I'm sorry, but it's truth. This isn't referring to all women, just every woman I have ever met. Why should women get equal pay if they can't perform the same tasks? Every woman my dad has ever hired on his construction crew did nothing but complain the whole time. They had every excuse they could think of for getting a few extra minutes on their break, not having to lift heavy things, or getting an extra water bottle. They just don't work. They just.. Don't. I don't know how to say it without sounding like a little prick, but it's true! Women can't handle as much stress as men can, but they still want to be rewarded as though they can handle all the stress in the world.
Blurgh. |
Joe -- I'm not going to say "you only think this because you're 15" but I promise you that these opinions are not based in fact. You are stuck on a concept of absolute equality -- that's not what anyone is arguing for here. No woman is suggesting that the average woman can lift as much as a man or run as fast as a man, etc. The point is: why are we valuing the things that men do better more than the things that women do better? Its the inherent bias built into every day thinking and policy that we're trying to address. "Equal pay" is not just about paying a woman the same as you pay a man for the same work, but its about overall why women make only 70 cents for every dollar a man makes. It trying to figure out and address those systemic biases that favour men over women.
As for crayon and the murderers: I can tell you that the law doesn't differentiate between men and women and they both able to argue the same defences and its very VERY hard for anyone, including women to suggest self defence in a murder case. |
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05/15/2007 05:48:22 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by Jacko:
Nice shiny floors, honey. Be a dear and fetch me a sammich. |
lol. My boyfriend is in charge of the sammies. ;) |
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05/15/2007 06:51:15 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
When crayon ogles men, women will have equality. |
Ohh man. I wished to sleep with one woman in my office, now i have to find a man to do the same. Damn equality in office. |
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05/15/2007 08:25:42 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by frisca:
Originally posted by Beautiful-Joe:
Women are just.. Overpriveleged. I'm sorry, but it's truth. This isn't referring to all women, just every woman I have ever met. Why should women get equal pay if they can't perform the same tasks? Every woman my dad has ever hired on his construction crew did nothing but complain the whole time. They had every excuse they could think of for getting a few extra minutes on their break, not having to lift heavy things, or getting an extra water bottle. They just don't work. They just.. Don't. I don't know how to say it without sounding like a little prick, but it's true! Women can't handle as much stress as men can, but they still want to be rewarded as though they can handle all the stress in the world.
Blurgh. |
Joe -- I'm not going to say "you only think this because you're 15" but I promise you that these opinions are not based in fact. You are stuck on a concept of absolute equality -- that's not what anyone is arguing for here. No woman is suggesting that the average woman can lift as much as a man or run as fast as a man, etc. The point is: why are we valuing the things that men do better more than the things that women do better? Its the inherent bias built into every day thinking and policy that we're trying to address. "Equal pay" is not just about paying a woman the same as you pay a man for the same work, but its about overall why women make only 70 cents for every dollar a man makes. It trying to figure out and address those systemic biases that favour men over women.
As for crayon and the murderers: I can tell you that the law doesn't differentiate between men and women and they both able to argue the same defences and its very VERY hard for anyone, including women to suggest self defence in a murder case. |
I just don't know of anything that women can do better than men.
Its moreso.. Things that are mostly taken up by women (housework, knitting, gardening..). It's not that men don't have the ability, its like.. Men just don't want to do it. I'm afraid that every woman I've ever seen attempt to work on a roof or every little girl who wished to try out my skateboard fell on their ass. They didn't have the ability whether they wanted to learn or not.
I will say this though, my mother is a fantastic cook, and my dad could probably find a way to burn water. Then again, I know ALOT of men who are far better cooks than women.
It has to do with interest and the age you start at.
Kind of like photography.
(Please read my last comment VERY CAREFULLY.) |
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05/15/2007 09:46:20 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by Beautiful-Joe:
Things that are mostly taken up by women (housework, knitting, gardening..). |
Every homeowning male that isn't married to a woman cleans house and gardens. The security guard at my office building, whom you would not want to meet in a dark alley late at night, for he would make mincemeat of your entrails, knits in the wee hours of the morning to relieve the boredom.
Originally posted by Beautiful-Joe:
I'm afraid that every woman I've ever seen attempt to work on a roof or every little girl who wished to try out my skateboard fell on their ass. |
14-year-old gold medal winner Lyn-Z Adams Hawkins would make you look like a sissy boy.
Originally posted by Beautiful-Joe:
I will say this though, my mother is a fantastic cook, and my dad could probably find a way to burn water. |
Gordon Ramsay would eat you for breakfast.
Your stereotypical teen-age tunnel-vision says more about you and your inability to see past your own faults, than about anything else. |
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05/15/2007 10:07:35 PM · #135 |
OMG you like boys. Kidding. Not really ... I tend to think of feminists as lesbians with army boots. hehe.
Originally posted by zxaar:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
When crayon ogles men, women will have equality. |
Ohh man. I wished to sleep with one woman in my office, now i have to find a man to do the same. Damn equality in office. |
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05/15/2007 10:08:00 PM · #136 |
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
OTHERS OR YOU? |
BOTH! (as evidenced in this thread)
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
AGAIN, THAT IS NOT OPPRESSION. PLEASE FAMILIARIZE YOURSELF WITH WHAT OPPRESSION IS. PAY AND LIFESPAN ARE NOT THE SAME, AND IF YOU WANT TO GO INTO MY PERSOAN STANCES, |
Sorry, I forgot...I was speaking of wrongs done to white men. Obviously, that's not oppression. WE ALL KNOW WHITE MEN CANNOT BE OPPRESSED.
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
A MAN'S LIFESPAN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OPPRESSION |
Really, and why does the fact that men on average die younger then women. There are a variety of possibilities and likely a multitude of reason. But what does one choose as their explanation. You've dismissed numerous explanations for the pay differences. And accept only accept one reason of the many factors. Were I to do similar I could easily explain the early death of men by the stress they bear in their roles in society. The fact that they are not allowed to partake in the joy of the raising of their children.
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
YOU WANT TO TALK LIFESPAN, DO A LITTLE RESEARCH INTO THE POVERTY STICKEN. THEY DON'T DO SO HOT EITHER |
You're point...or do you simply believe that poverty stricken only includes women? Cause if not, this point bears no relevance to the argument.
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
SOCIETY CUTS ITSELF INTO CHUNKS. THAT'S THE WAY IT IS |
I'm so so sorry you believe that is the way things must be. I, however, do not believe this needs to be.
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
LIKE I SAID BEFORE. IF YOU ARE ON THE RECIEVING END, WHY DO YOU CARE ABOUT FIGHTING FOR EQUALITY? |
The problem is, that you are prejudice. You think all men are on the receiving end. Very few of us are....
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
IT IS YOU WHO DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE ISSUES THAT DO NOT EFFECT HIM. YOU WHO ARGUES AGAINST MY EVERY POINT WITH SOME "THIS ONE TIME THIS HAPPENED TO ME STORY" |
You receive comments, and situations from a number of people besides myself.
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
TAKE A STEP BACK AND GAIN SOME PERSPECTIVE. YOU ARE YELLING AT ME FOR NOT LOOKING AT YOUR LIFE AND TELLING YOU YOU ARE RIGHT. I AM NOT EXCLUDING CONCERNS THAT ARE NOT MINE. |
No, I am saying you are merely prejudiced in your views. If I were the only one who had experienced such that would be one thing. But I am not....
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
NEED I REMIND YOU THE BIBLE WAS STILL USED TO "PROVE" THAT BLACKS WERE SUBORDINATE, |
Only if you need me to remind you that the concept of evolution was used even more forcefully in support of such discrimination. Even to the point of putting an African in a zoo exhibit.
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
HOW OFTEN DO YOU HAVE AN EAR TO THEIR STUGGLES BEFORE TRYING TO ONE UP THEM WITH YOUR LIFE AND SAYING "SO SAD CHARLY I'VE BEEN THERE TOO"? |
If someone is for equality, and not for merely swinging pendulums. Then I support them.
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
RESOLVE THOSE THINGS AND WE'D SEE SUCH A DIFFERENT WORLD. REALLY. I DON'T MEAN THIS INA CONDESCENDING WAY. YOU DO NOT SEE WHAT I SEE. I HAVE READ MANY, MANY, MANY ARTICLES AND NOT A ONE OF THEM WAS ABOUT BLAMING OR HATING MEN. |
Sorry, as I said, we have a difference of opinion. I put little stock in "articles". Which are often presented with the best face.
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
I HAVE DONE NO SUCH THING. I HAVE DISMISSED THEM AS VALID ARGUMENTS. NOT AS STRUGGLES. IT SEEMS TO ME YOU ARE THE ONE PLAYING VICTIM HERE, NOT ME. |
I'm only showing you an angle you don't seem to be aware of. One that is seldom addressed in articles, seldom funded by grants.
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
BRING ME SOME TALES OF IRAQI DESCRIMINATION AFTER 911. TELL ME YOU CARE AND NOT ABOUT A TIME AFTER 911 WHERE SOMEONE STUBBED YOUR TOE OR CALLED YOU FAT. PLEASE. THIS IS GETTING ABSURD. |
Yes, it is....
And I think anytime that we are divisive in our talk of oppression instead of inclusive. Then we are absurd....
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
YOU ARE THE ONE THAT KEEPS HARPING ON WHITE MALE "DESCRIMINATION" AND "OPPRESSION". |
SORRY IF I DON'T WANT TO JUST SIT THERE AS SOMEONE TRIES TO BLAME ALL OF US MEN AND DISMISS OUR ISSUES AS NOT RELEVANT DUE TO US BEING PRIVELEDGED
The entire concept of prejudice is to prejudge a group simply because they are part of a larger group. That's exactly what many of your comments have done. As such, when someone decries prejudice while being prejudice - I tend not to be as concerned with what they say.
That doesn't mean I am unconcerned about inequality towards women. I am.
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
WHEN DID I EVER MENTION REVENGE? |
When us guys posted about our cases of oppression. When others mentioned lower pay, and being passed over although more qualified. And the arguments returned were essentially, "Men have been priveledged for centuries. And that makes it fair." That is revenge.
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
YOU ARE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT IT TO SUCH A SMALL SCALE. A VERY SMALL ONE, THAT BEING YOURSELF. |
If you really think that I am arguing this just for myself...than you've missed my whole point. But I think I see the problem. I gave you personal examples. Therefore, you assume that I am only concerned with my person.
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
You know what. Life experience only takes you so far. |
Au Contraire
Life experience brings you all the way.... (to death that is) ;)
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
I am really offended that you brought up the age thing. You think I've only been an adult for 3 years you don't know very much about me. I had to grow up very fast, and even if that wasn't the case you think childhood experiences don't count? If that is the case a lot of theSaj's experiences would be rendered moot. |
*LOL*
Okay, this has me smiling smugly....
You are getting on Art's case for judging you by your age and thinking he know's everything about you. But you did that too me...
And ETooz...you have no bloody idea what I have or have not been through. To me you have proven to me that you are prejudice and a bigot.
Originally posted by "escapetooz":
In your life experience how much have you studied up on feminist issues? Your life experience lets you know a lot of things about the portion of individuals around you. |
I admit I haven't had a formal curriculum of women's issues. But I have had a number of lessons specifically on such throughout my schooling. Furthermore, I have had formal curriculums regarding race, bigotry,
*****
Beautiful-Joe, I've known women who have worked harder and with more diligence than any men I know. (My mother worked three jobs weeks on end sleeping a mere few hours a night.)
And I myself am a pretty decent cook.
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05/15/2007 11:50:40 PM · #137 |
I thank my penis daily for all I've got because everyone knows it isn't hard work or determination that got me where I am. It's all thanks to my penis!!!!
Sing it with me!!!
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05/16/2007 12:06:32 AM · #138 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I thank my penis daily for all I've got because everyone knows it isn't hard work or determination that got me where I am. It's all thanks to my penis!!!!
Sing it with me!!! |
Thank you penis, and balls (down there) we haven't forgotten you too. |
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05/16/2007 12:08:57 AM · #139 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I thank my penis daily for all I've got because everyone knows it isn't hard work or determination that got me where I am. It's all thanks to my penis!!!!
Sing it with me!!! |
OMFG, lol |
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05/16/2007 12:13:19 AM · #140 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Men are not hurt by granting a woman maternity leave. Women are hurt however when they lose their jobs or recieve pay cuts simply for having a baby.
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Don't tell me no one pays a price for a woman taking maternity leave. Everyone who has to pick up the slack pays for it. Their families pay for it since they likely have to work more hours. When the woman takes her 12 weeks and then informs her employer that she's not planning to return at all, those people who were picking up the slack pay even more.
Even if she does return to work full time, how can you tell me that someone who worked only 75% of the year should receive the same consideration for raises/promotions/bonuses as all the people who worked the whole year? It doesn't work that way if I'm out sick or on medical leave. |
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05/16/2007 12:16:07 AM · #141 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
I thank my penis daily for all I've got because everyone knows it isn't hard work or determination that got me where I am. It's all thanks to my penis!!!!
Sing it with me!!! |
You know what happens when you let the little head do the thinking... |
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05/16/2007 12:18:51 AM · #142 |
joe -- don't insult my intelligence. I read your comments, carefully. I'm sorry you hold such ignorant views of women and hardwork. The world has harsh lessons in store for you.
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05/16/2007 01:22:07 AM · #143 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Men are not hurt by granting a woman maternity leave. Women are hurt however when they lose their jobs or recieve pay cuts simply for having a baby.
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Don't tell me no one pays a price for a woman taking maternity leave. Everyone who has to pick up the slack pays for it. Their families pay for it since they likely have to work more hours. When the woman takes her 12 weeks and then informs her employer that she's not planning to return at all, those people who were picking up the slack pay even more.
Even if she does return to work full time, how can you tell me that someone who worked only 75% of the year should receive the same consideration for raises/promotions/bonuses as all the people who worked the whole year? It doesn't work that way if I'm out sick or on medical leave. |
Oh right. SO lets stop having babies and see where society goes. Because women are the ones that FREAKIN HAVE TO REPOPULATE THE EARTH LETS PUNISH THEM FOR IT.
Get real. |
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05/16/2007 01:29:13 AM · #144 |
As for you Saj. I'm done discussing this with you.
There is nothing I will say tht you will not misinterepret, take out of context, and use against me.
let me say this one last time. I never have, nor never will, BLAME men for my problems or the problems of society. Men and women both perpetuate society, men just happen to be on the superior end hence stand the most to LOSE from equality, in eyes like yours at least.
I have addressed your "prejudice" claim in PM and I am ashamed that you are rude enough to make outlandish claims like this in an open forum. I do not take kindly to name calling and you have lost all my respect. I do not debate with people I do not respect.
There is NO REVENGE AND NO HATE ANYWHERE IN MY MESSAGE. Any thoughts of these kind are a result of your perception and some rash statements on my part because of being provoked, which I have APPOLOGIZED for in PM before realizing you had publicly called me names.
Again, I am done with you. Leave me alone. |
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05/16/2007 01:34:44 AM · #145 |
Originally posted by Beautiful-Joe:
[
I just don't know of anything that women can do better than men.
Its moreso.. Things that are mostly taken up by women (housework, knitting, gardening..). It's not that men don't have the ability, its like.. Men just don't want to do it. I'm afraid that every woman I've ever seen attempt to work on a roof or every little girl who wished to try out my skateboard fell on their ass. They didn't have the ability whether they wanted to learn or not.
I will say this though, my mother is a fantastic cook, and my dad could probably find a way to burn water. Then again, I know ALOT of men who are far better cooks than women.
It has to do with interest and the age you start at.
Kind of like photography.
(Please read my last comment VERY CAREFULLY.) |
Joe, you apperently haven't met many talented women or your perception is way off. I'm guessing the latter. DId you ever stop to think that no one had ever BOUGHT that little girl a skateboard? How many times did YOU fall on your ass before you learned? Or did you just jump on and start ollying right away? And for the record my little brother goes to the skate park all the time and I love him to death but he can't skate like ANY of the girls there, and one of them is about half his size.
Don't see why you are so worried about offending anyone with the photography statement yet spouted freely about how women can't do anything as well as men. |
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05/16/2007 01:41:59 AM · #146 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Oh right. SO lets stop having babies and see where society goes. Because women are the ones that FREAKIN HAVE TO REPOPULATE THE EARTH LETS PUNISH THEM FOR IT. Get real. |
it is unavoidable that women have to take maternity leaves when they give birth, and everyone understands that. but what Spazmo said has truth in it. in a business, productivity is affected by such incidents, and results in downtime. productivity is money, downtime is losing it. now if you are accountable for the amount paid for business up-time, you would be selective in hiring too.
edit to add: now if i have to choose between 2 MALE employees, one that comes to work everyday while the other takes lots of leaves, i'd rely on the one that works everyday more, and probably give him better salary adjustment that the other male who takes lots of leaves (though there is nothing wrong with him taking lots of leaves)
Message edited by author 2007-05-16 01:45:18. |
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05/16/2007 01:48:16 AM · #147 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Oh right. SO lets stop having babies and see where society goes. Because women are the ones that FREAKIN HAVE TO REPOPULATE THE EARTH LETS PUNISH THEM FOR IT. Get real. |
it is unavoidable that women have to take maternity leaves when they give birth, and everyone understands that. but what Spazmo said has truth in it. in a business, productivity is affected by such incidents, and results in downtime. productivity is money, downtime is losing it. now if you are accountable for the amount paid for business up-time, you would be selective in hiring too. |
"selective" aka "descriminatory?" Sure women have babies, but they aren't all having babies all the time. If women are to be denied jobs because they will possibly, one day, have a baby, how are women ever to gain the same kinds of jobs as men?
I actually heard a story of some job, I can't remember what working with something that would harm a fetus if a woman were pregnant. This company was denying women, saying the risk was too great even if the women had no intentions of ever becoming pregnant. That is discrimination. |
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05/16/2007 02:21:17 AM · #148 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
"selective" aka "descriminatory?" |
ah yes, but the choices of words used in a context changes the perception, don't you agree? |
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05/16/2007 02:23:43 AM · #149 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
"selective" aka "descriminatory?" |
ah yes, but the choices of words used in a context changes the perception, don't you agree? |
lol. certainly. That's why the words are chosen. |
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05/16/2007 07:31:34 AM · #150 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Oh right. SO lets stop having babies and see where society goes. Because women are the ones that FREAKIN HAVE TO REPOPULATE THE EARTH LETS PUNISH THEM FOR IT. Get real. |
it is unavoidable that women have to take maternity leaves when they give birth, and everyone understands that. but what Spazmo said has truth in it. in a business, productivity is affected by such incidents, and results in downtime. productivity is money, downtime is losing it. now if you are accountable for the amount paid for business up-time, you would be selective in hiring too.
edit to add: now if i have to choose between 2 MALE employees, one that comes to work everyday while the other takes lots of leaves, i'd rely on the one that works everyday more, and probably give him better salary adjustment that the other male who takes lots of leaves (though there is nothing wrong with him taking lots of leaves) |
I would be interested to know what you think on a more conceptual level. Would you agree with either of the following statements?
1) Women are born differently to men and society should treat them differently where their biological differences either disadvantage or advantage them.
2) Women are born differently to men but society should take steps to ensure that their biological differences do not give them an advantage or disadvantage, where practicable.
Message edited by author 2007-05-16 10:32:10.
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