|
| Author | Thread |
|
|
05/12/2007 04:31:54 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
FACT: Women can have the SAME job, SAME qualifications, and SAME hours as a man and still get less pay.
FACT: More women are in underpaid "female" dominated fields.
|
FACT: In typically male dominated fields (e.g. Engineering & Computers) women have a large advantage when it comes to getting hired, salary (both starting AND raises), promotions, bonuses and job preference.
When I was filling an engineer position at my last job, I was strongly encouraged to hire a female engineer over more qualified male applicants. Her starting salary offer was 15% higher than what was discussed for the male applicants and she was the only candidate offered a sign-on bonus.
I've also seen female engineers promoted into management over male engineers with much better qualifications. I've seen better qualified male candidates offered bonuses to withdraw from consideration for promotions internally so that the job could be offered to a female employee. |
That's not equality, and that's not progress. That's affirmative action, and its value is quite contentious. My opinion? When AA is no longer necessary, when your boss no longer feels compelled to strongly encourage you to hire a woman for a particular job, because doing so is not a matter of gender but of qualification, that is when people can start talking about women being treated equally with their male counterparts in the workplace. |
It was not Affirmative Action. It's reverse discrimination.
It was supposed to be an Equal Opportunity Employer, supposedly hiring the best candidate based on qualifications and capability without regard to race, gender, creed, religious preference etc.
Message edited by author 2007-05-12 16:33:29. |
|
|
|
05/12/2007 04:34:54 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
FACT: Women can have the SAME job, SAME qualifications, and SAME hours as a man and still get less pay.
FACT: More women are in underpaid "female" dominated fields.
|
FACT: In typically male dominated fields (e.g. Engineering & Computers) women have a large advantage when it comes to getting hired, salary (both starting AND raises), promotions, bonuses and job preference.
When I was filling an engineer position at my last job, I was strongly encouraged to hire a female engineer over more qualified male applicants. Her starting salary offer was 15% higher than what was discussed for the male applicants and she was the only candidate offered a sign-on bonus.
I've also seen female engineers promoted into management over male engineers with much better qualifications. I've seen better qualified male candidates offered bonuses to withdraw from consideration for promotions internally so that the job could be offered to a female employee. |
That's not equality, and that's not progress. That's affirmative action, and its value is quite contentious. My opinion? When AA is no longer necessary, when your boss no longer feels compelled to strongly encourage you to hire a woman for a particular job, because doing so is not a matter of gender but of qualification, that is when people can start talking about women being treated equally with their male counterparts in the workplace. |
It was not Affirmative Action.
It was supposed to be an Equal Opportunity Employer, supposedly hiring the best candidate based on qualifications and capability without regard to race, gender, creed, religious preference etc. |
That's what they tell you, eh? When you pass over more qualified candidates and all but mandate the hiring of a specific minority, whether it's to fill a quota, official or unofficial, or to simply make management "feel better" about the illusion of diversity, it's affirmative action. It doesn't have to be a written policy to be what it is.
|
|
|
|
05/12/2007 04:43:59 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
FACT: Women can have the SAME job, SAME qualifications, and SAME hours as a man and still get less pay.
FACT: More women are in underpaid "female" dominated fields.
|
FACT: In typically male dominated fields (e.g. Engineering & Computers) women have a large advantage when it comes to getting hired, salary (both starting AND raises), promotions, bonuses and job preference.
When I was filling an engineer position at my last job, I was strongly encouraged to hire a female engineer over more qualified male applicants. Her starting salary offer was 15% higher than what was discussed for the male applicants and she was the only candidate offered a sign-on bonus.
I've also seen female engineers promoted into management over male engineers with much better qualifications. I've seen better qualified male candidates offered bonuses to withdraw from consideration for promotions internally so that the job could be offered to a female employee. |
That's not equality, and that's not progress. That's affirmative action, and its value is quite contentious. My opinion? When AA is no longer necessary, when your boss no longer feels compelled to strongly encourage you to hire a woman for a particular job, because doing so is not a matter of gender but of qualification, that is when people can start talking about women being treated equally with their male counterparts in the workplace. |
It was not Affirmative Action.
It was supposed to be an Equal Opportunity Employer, supposedly hiring the best candidate based on qualifications and capability without regard to race, gender, creed, religious preference etc. |
That's what they tell you, eh? When you pass over more qualified candidates and all but mandate the hiring of a specific minority, whether it's to fill a quota, official or unofficial, or to simply make management "feel better" about the illusion of diversity, it's affirmative action. It doesn't have to be a written policy to be what it is. |
Whatever name you want to call it it's wrong.
Would you be so vocal if it were reversed and it was a male nurse or teacher being offered a great deal more compensation over better qualified female candidates? |
|
|
|
05/12/2007 04:45:00 PM · #54 |
Yep. I hate affirmative action, doesn't matter which minority of the week is being promoted. Using gender as an example since it's the point of the thread, hiring should be gender-blind, not hyper-aware and paranoid of it.
Message edited by author 2007-05-12 16:51:53.
|
|
|
|
05/12/2007 04:47:01 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Are you kidding me? All of the generalizations you just through out there in the first parapraph illustrate my point. No one is aware of all the stereotypes we think of as FACT. Koreans and their good work ethic. That may seem like a compliment but generalizing never is. How many Koreans do you actually know? Not enough to say that as fact. You are in one part of the world, in one company, with a few Koreans around and suddenly think you know something about the people of an entire COUNTRY.
Doesn't it anger you when people say Americans are all fat lazy rednecks? TRUE there might be a lot of them here, that doesn't mean the WHOLE country is all that. My point. Stereotypes may ring true in some instances but they are never for ALL people and white men have significantly less stereotyping because they are seen as neutral or normal in our society.. You don't have a lazy white dude you work with and say "man all white guys are so lazy" you say "that dude is lazy". But when a woman, black person, Korean, acts a certain way, it's a credit to that entire group. It's absolutely absurd. |
I've been skimming through this thread and I gotta say, this is a bit hypocritical - you accuse him of generalizing, yet your entire position is based on a generalized statistic - i.e. women make less than men, etc. Think about it. There are women who make more than their male counterparts. There are women who work harder than Koreans. You either have to allow someone to use generalizations in the debate or you have to stop using them for it to be fair and honest, IMO.
And in the interest of full disclosure (and at the risk of incurring Monica's wrath), I am in the "stop whining" camp and also believe that the numbers are skewed by choices made by women. Unless you can show me that the comparisons are "all things equal" (education, experience, time with the same company, etc.), the stats hold no water, IMO.
The fact is that EVERYONE has something discriminating about them - too fat, too skinny, - oh I forgot - you can never be... :-) - short, black, female, ugly, smelly, have a lithp, etc. Should we all form groups of people with similar attributes that seem to be working against us and then compile statistics to prove our case? Then what? Force companies to hire us fat, smelly, lithping folks and give us the same salary as those "beautiful people"? Sorry. We all have things to overcome and some more than others - life is not fair - get over it. In America (and probably many other capitalist countries), if you don't like what you are being paid, go find a job that will pay you more, or go start your own business where your income is only limited by your own capabilities and willingness to work.
I am not arguing that there may still be unfairness between genders, but I would argue that it is dissipating and I see more and more men staying at home taking care of the kids while the woman brings home the money (I would be all over that if I could!).
LOL - I think I've said enough. :D |
|
|
|
05/12/2007 04:51:10 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Would you be so vocal if it were reversed and it was a male nurse or teacher being offered a great deal more compensation over better qualified female candidates? |
I could be wrong but it sounds like you don't recognize that you and Rebecca are both on the same side of the AA issue. |
|
|
|
05/12/2007 05:43:15 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Would you be so vocal if it were reversed and it was a male nurse or teacher being offered a great deal more compensation over better qualified female candidates? |
I could be wrong but it sounds like you don't recognize that you and Rebecca are both on the same side of the AA issue. |
I didn't, but after her last post, I do. |
|
|
|
05/12/2007 05:44:17 PM · #58 |
Looking at that whole walmart thread i got to reading. Ran across a complaint about their fair employment of women.
They say Walmart does not equally employ women and 56% of their managers are female.... when does it become equal when 100% of them are?
Message edited by author 2007-05-12 17:44:37. |
|
|
|
05/12/2007 07:44:45 PM · #59 |
How equal are men?
Ironically, not as equal as many pre-suppose. We are taught at a very young age how eveil we are. Where as teachers inform us that girls are made from everything nice where as boys are made from snails and puppy dog tails. Furthermore, at least in my personal case, everytime I heard this as a young impressionable child it came from an adult female in an authority position.
More women are going to college than men. Males are finding it more and more difficult to receive funding or support for post-secondary education.
"Women still have unequal pay in the US." Many such studies simply address women versus men based on education level achieved and not necessarily on the type of education. Few women major in the hard sciences such as math, engineering, computer science, etc. These also happen to be jobs that tend to pay higher for the same education level.
"We have horrible maternity leave and child care, rediculously high domestic abuse cases with inadequat punishment and protection, rapes, murders."
What women consider horrible maternity leave far exceeds the paternity leave granted to men. Few men receive even a day or two let alone two weeks that is not uncommon for women. While one may argue necessity if one breast feeds. For the many who simply use formula there is little excuse. Right off the bat the man is distanced from the baby. Later there is criticism for not being as supportive while in truth the man has not had as much opportunity to bond.
Domestic abuse is far from limited to just females. Though sadly, due to the natural physical balance of males and females it does tend to be a more common abuse against women. Murders, I think protection is inadequate for both male and female and do not see it as a "female issue".
As for rape, this is a travesty to be sure. But you want to talk about lack of protections. Parents of young male minors who have been preyed upon by female adults have found that no laws existed for rape charges in some cases because all the laws were written under assumption for the benefit of females.
Date rape laws are excrutiating biased in this matter. In which two individuals have a drink. Then have sex. The woman can press for rape where as the man has no defense. Even if the man had refused interest on the part of the girl repeatedly and was passed out drunk and the woman raped him in the dorms. In many states, the man is unable to charge for rape but could face charges. A very unjust situation to be sure.
"Reproduction rights are constantly under attack" If you mean the right to use birth control. I see very little attack. If you mean the right to end another being's life (and don't say "part of my body" because that is scientifically been disproven) - than no. Your right should not exceed to the point of meaning another human being's death.
YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT FAIRNESS AND EQUALITY. LET'S TALK!
1. Are you ready to have every woman register for selective service, being potentially drafted for combat duty? If not, than there is no equality.
2. Why when I was in the Coast Guard Academy were the physical requirements different for women than for men. We had to climb over a wall. For the women however they received a wall that was much shorter. I am short... 5'6" on a good day. Supposedly the wall tested upper body strength but really it only tested how tall you were. I had the upper body strength to pull myself over with only two finger tips but most of the time I couldn't jump high enough to get those fingers onto the top of the wall. So I commonly failed the wall. Was I supposed to think I am equal with a woman when a 6ft+ woman is given a wall a couple feet shorter than I. How is that equal.
In truth, every man in a squad needs to carry his weight. When every man has a 100 lbs pack. Is it fair for a woman to only have to carry 80 lbs thus forcing each of the men to carry an extra 5 lbs? Is that equality?
3. Recent studies have shown that the general well-being of men is in decline. They are being less educated. And are falling behind on the lifespan and quality of living. This is seldom mentioned.
"I myself spent several hours READING articles to my boyfriend before he would agree with me that women ARE still oppressed."
Maybe you should realize that most commoners are oppressed and it doesn't matter whether you're male or female, white or black, heterosexual or homosexual. You really want to talk descrimination and unfair pay in the workplace. Talk about heavy versus thin. Regardless if both are in good shape. Talk about tall versus short. A short stocky person will routinely be paid less and receive less advancement and promotion for the same work and education level.
Frankly, I find this post uninformed and divisive. Now, that is not to say there is not discrimination nor bigotry. But rather it is to inform you that such prejudices are experience all around. It's usually simply assumed that "white men" suffer no prejudice or discrimination. THIS IS NOT SO. I have experienced it numerous times in my life. Reverse discrimination and hatred simply for the color of my skin. Criticism and dismissal in scholastic environment simply because of being male. Yes, My 5th/6th grade teacher actually expressed that she disliked boys. (Then WHY DIDN'T SHE GO TEACH AT AN ALL GIRLS SCHOOL instead of making my life hell?)
And don't tell me that I grew up benefited. I grew up poorer than most people called minorities. I grew up in a violent and drug filled home. I went to the same crappy public schools. You want to know the difference? I busted my butt. In high school when most of my classmates were getting home at 2pm I was getting home at 5pm and 10pm....FROM CLASS. That's right. Then I'd have homework, chores, and all the rest of the crud.
*****
That said, I am a staunch supporter of equality. I dislike modern femisnism because most of the feminist movement today is merely a "masculinist" movement. It has almost zero respect for anything feminine. It is all about being men. That's stupid. You know what....I believe there are women capable of doing pretty much everything. But I think anyone is a fool to think that if I took a general selection of a 100 women and put them against a 100 females that the women would be stronger. Just a natural physical difference. That does NOT devalue women. Few men have the endurance that many women have.
TRUE feminism is not about women trying to be men. It is about respecting with equal value that which makes women - women. A woman who breast feeds her child is true feminism. And it should be viewed with respect, awe, and admiration. I don't care if a woman can take steroids and pump iron. So you've proved a few women can excel in more masculine traits. So.....what. Is that feminism? No!
Should a woman be paid the same as a man for equal work. Yes. That is equality. Everyone should be paid the same for the same type and quality of work. AND I'LL STAND AND FIGHT FOR THAT.
But feminism should not merely protect the right of a woman to work and to unload any burdens that could prevent her from do so (so called reproductive rights). But rather feminism should be focused on demanding equivalent respect and admiration and compensation for that which is feminine.
"there are still no laws agaist paying women less for the jobs they do then men. Illustration: teachers and professors. Really bad pay ratios. "
Really, funny, almost every company I've ever seen advertise a position has included a notice of being an equal opportunity employer.
Comparing teachers to professors...what does this mean. Most payment for teachers and professors is based on education/certification levels + seniority. Where does sex come in?
"Basically feminists want to end the oppression of women."
THIS IS WHERE I SAY FEMINIST IS SEXEST AND DANGEROUS...
It divides. Right there in that statement is division. So feminists merely care about women and no one else. Than if that is the case why should we not have masculinists who merely care about men?
Do you not see the inherent fundamental problem?
Rather, an equalist seeks the end of oppression of all and the equality of everyone. Can not all of feminist's goals be achived under that without the need to divide and create such boundaries you claim to be opposing?
"NOW"
NOW lost all my respect when they supported President Clinton as he cheated and abused his wife. Just for politics.
"FACT: Women can have the SAME job, SAME qualifications, and SAME hours as a man and still get less pay."
Yes, this still happens and should be fought against. But why not expand it. Fight against it for all people.
"FACT: More women are in underpayed "female" dominated fields."
FACT, women repeatedly choose less demanded and less rated fields. In fact numerous schools have tried massive campaigns and dumped hundreds of thousands of dollars into attracting females to degrees such as engineering, physics, etc. But they don't go.
WHY?
Is it fair to then complain of lower pay?
"A woman gives up education and career to be a stay at home mom and do the family thing. She is putting in the work (roughly) of 2 full time jobs but is not getting paid for any of it and is not gaining any "work" experience."
Meanwhile, the man is working a full time job + overtime. Plus a part time job or more of being a father. And is often taking care of all the finances. Yeah, it's easy to be complained about that "hey I dealt with the kids all day". But how often is the hours spent dealign with the finances and other stuff credited to that working father? Or the fact that the father is going to work so that his wife can be gifted to be with the children.
My dream...is that both my wife and I could stay home with our child. To watch her grow. To build memories. That's just not possible.
Ironically, often when the case is reversed and the woman maintains the career and the father is a stay at home dad the husband is treated condenscendingly. Criticized for not adding financially. And not appreciated for his work even less than women are.
"They both put in a LOT of work to create that family BUT the woman has nothing "tangible" to show for it."
Hence, if the man leaves and divorces the wife there is a concept called alimony.
"Sure the wife might get child support and alamony but chances are it's not enough. "
On the flip side, it can often be far more than the man's own family gets. I've known of situations of women with kids from 3 different father collecting child support + welfare driving new cars, living with all the luxuries. Where as the ex-husband is paying many times more in child support than his other children receive. Is that fair too?
Originally posted by "pcody":
For us to cease living in a "victim" society, shouldn't we first stop thinking of ourselves as victims? |
Right on!
"That's a big thing. SHAME. You are never ASHAMED of being robbed but there is a stigma on abuse victims because of this blaming. that is why so many cases go unreported. "
I remember hearing a statistic:
1 in 4 women will be sexually abused or raped before 20.
1 in 10 men will be sexually abused or raped before 20.
Though they had an asterick because some believe that figure to be much higher. People talk about how rape goes unreported for women. It's far far far less likely to go reported for men. And I'd say it's much higher because in my life I have known many friends who were abused. In fact probably as many male friends as females.
"Here is an example... teachers pay more attention to male students, are more likely to call on them when their hands are raised, and more likely to praise them with "neutral" and encouraged terms such as "smart" "Leader" etc"
WHERE IN THE WORLD DID YOU GET THIS STATISTIC
I went to nigh a dozen schools. And I can say from what I saw females almost always received more praise and consideration.
"corresponding commercials to show this. TV and movies, damsels in distress, heroic males... the freakin womens channels are nothing but women getting stalked, beaten, raped, killed going insane or starving themselves."
Maybe you need to modernize your viewing. Watch more science fiction. Where women are repeatedly being shown as strong, good leaders, etc. Aliens anyone? Ivanova (Babylon 5). Starbuck & the President "Battlestar Galactica".
"Think... DEVIL WEARS PRADA. If that was a MAN as the boss he wouldn't be a bitch or a hag, or whatever you might say to describe the Streep character, he'd be a business man, a dedicated worker, etc. "
He'd have been thrown out of his job due to lawsuits saying he was a bigot. Proof that your so called desire for equality and lack of oppression is often simply mis-interpretation.
"Why is that a choice a MOTHER has to make... family or work, that a FATHER does not?"
Who says....though in truth it often comes down to who makes the most money. Much of this probably ties into the fact that when people tend to get married most of the time men are older. This means they have been in the workplace longer to advance. So when the economics play and there are bills to pay. The family choose the one that pays the most bills.
WOMEN, want to fix this...marry younger men. We die before you do anyways.
Originally posted by "yanko":
Btw, do you feel you have had an advantage in your life because you are attractive and thin? Do you feel people not as attractive and not as thin as you are "oppressed"? Just curious. |
This plays out more than anything else. My mom just wound up in an altercation with a past tenant. It's real complex involving police. She was working with one officer. And others came to handle the situation. However, as soon as they saw the tenant who is hot and sexy versus my 50+ mother - they came down on my mom. Who was arested. Totally injust. And we are actually encouraging my mother to consider filing a sexual discrimination lawsuit against the city on this matter.
But this brings up another matter. How often do women take advantage of their feminimity. I've had so many female friends who have been let off of driving tickets by acting cute, playing ignorant, etc. In fact, I have very few female friends who don't attest to such.
I know of no male friends who've had similar experiences.
"It has been interesting reading this thread, as I hadn't realy appreciated just how far apart America and Britain were on these issues. I haven't got time to contribute now, but shall return to the thread later today to give a view from 'across the pond'."
America is probably less far apart, if not more excelling. We just tend to be more vocal.
"You are seriously misinformed. Look at the consequences of Rosa Park's actions. Sure she became a legend, but I can gaurantee a lot of other people found themselves in similar situations and did NOT get this status. They got punished and that was the end of it."
You are quite right. Having personally been in Rosa Parks situation I will say I got no notice or remark. But when enough do, sometimes it kindles a fire.
"I'm sorry is there something WRONG with spreading knowledge and awareness? That's not asking for validation. "
Only when you're not giving a full explanation nor open to understanding that others suffer as well in like manner.
"Men make their deals on the golf course, at the bar after work, in the locker room, etc."
WHAT MEN?
I don't know a single man who's made any such deals. Maybe a handful of elite few. But those same elite have women making their deals too.
Few of us commoners ever get to make such deals.
"That's not equality, and that's not progress. That's affirmative action, and its value is quite contentious. My opinion? When AA is no longer necessary, when your boss no longer feels compelled to strongly encourage you to hire a woman for a particular job, because doing so is not a matter of gender but of qualification, that is when people can start talking about women being treated equally with their male counterparts in the workplace. "
So when women decide to pursue the tougher academic fields.....???
"That's what they tell you, eh? When you pass over more qualified candidates and all but mandate the hiring of a specific minority, whether it's to fill a quota, official or unofficial, or to simply make management "feel better" about the illusion of diversity, it's affirmative action. It doesn't have to be a written policy to be what it is."
And if we did away with it, I am sure women would be complaing left and right. So um, who's fault is it that women repeatedly choose NOT to go into such fields (regardless of the fact that admissions, scholarships, higher pay rates, etc) abound?
|
|
|
|
05/12/2007 08:02:35 PM · #60 |
"The Oppression of Men in the College System"
//www.glennsacks.com/mysterious_decline_where.htm
"Sugar and spice and everything nice,
That´s what little girls are made of.
Snakes and snails and puppy-dog tails,
That´s what little boys are made of."
YOU TRY GROWING UP WITH THAT YOUR WHOLE LIFE - SURE WOMEN ARE OPPRESSED AT TIMES - SO ARE MEN!
DO WE STAND AGAINST ALL OPPRESSION - OR DO WE BE PREJUDICE AND STAND ONLY FOR OUR OWN OPPRESSION? |
|
|
|
05/12/2007 08:35:19 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
"Men make their deals on the golf course, at the bar after work, in the locker room, etc."
WHAT MEN? |
Business men. Executives. But clearly not you. This is supported by research. Go look for it. I posted a whole page of articles. This is about the glass ceiling, and why women perceive it. There IS a good ole boys network. It may not exist on your level of whatever you do, but it IS there and no angry paranoid rant of yours will change that.
Originally posted by thesaj:
So when women decide to pursue the tougher academic fields.....??? |
Not sure what you're getting at here, since women do. Women now outnumber men in college attendance - which you pointed out yourself! We're very quickly catching up with the number of advanced degrees as well. My MBA program is only about 30% female, technical fields like engineering have higher numbers than that, and the number continues to grow. Unfortunately, studies have shown that level of education is less important than gender in hiring decisions. For management and executive positions.
Originally posted by thesaj:
And if we did away with it, I am sure women would be complaing left and right. So um, who's fault is it that women repeatedly choose NOT to go into such fields (regardless of the fact that admissions, scholarships, higher pay rates, etc) abound? |
Again, you're barking up the wrong tree. Look at my first post. I plainly admitted that women themselves are partly to blame. They choose a fulfilling life outside of their careers. They themselves often prefer to hire men. A growing number get frustrated with the slow advancement and go into business for themselves, leaving the corporate ladder and the glass ceiling behind them.
All of the literature out there gives suggestions to businesses and governments about how to create a diverse workplace, but we only found one article, out of hundreds, that addressed what WOMEN could do about the situation themselves. Even the authors of that feminist literature seem to think women incapable of changing their own situation, instead leaving it up to the businesses that employ them.
I'm not a traditional "feminist". I don't believe men are eeeviilll. I don't believe I am personally being oppressed. I don't feel held back. I'm glad that women have choices about these things. Because of these things, I think the glass ceiling is mostly the result of women's own choices. It wasn't that way fifty years ago, and I'm glad to be living and working now instead of then. That does NOT exclude lingering pockets of sexism from contributing, but for the most part, as a woman, I feel that if I want to be a manager, an executive, to move up the corporate ladder somehow, then the only thing that truly will stop me is myself and my choices about what is most important in my life.
Those choices are currently rather simple, since I have no husband, no children, no roommates, no one to answer to on anything at all except myself. So I've learned two foreign languages. I've developed a career in banking. I'm pursuing one of those confounded advanced degrees. With no responsibilities to anyone else, I have the time. If I quit, it won't be due to any perception of a glass ceiling.
The issue is MUCH MORE COMPLICATED than your paranoia allows. To close, I'll direct you to something that troubles me:
Originally posted by thesaj:
We are taught at a very young age how eveil we are. Where as teachers inform us that girls are made from everything nice where as boys are made from snails and puppy dog tails. Furthermore, at least in my personal case, everytime I heard this as a young impressionable child it came from an adult female in an authority position. |
This sounds more like an exception than a norm to me. It sounds like you were surrounded by emotionally abusive people as a child, and maybe you should find someone to help you deal with that instead of posting paranoid rants online directed at people you don't know.
Message edited by author 2007-05-12 20:45:55.
|
|
|
|
05/12/2007 08:36:14 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Are you kidding me? All of the generalizations you just through out there in the first parapraph illustrate my point. No one is aware of all the stereotypes we think of as FACT. Koreans and their good work ethic. That may seem like a compliment but generalizing never is. How many Koreans do you actually know? Not enough to say that as fact. You are in one part of the world, in one company, with a few Koreans around and suddenly think you know something about the people of an entire COUNTRY.
|
Actually I'm not as stupid and backward as you might think, just wondering if anyone would catch on to what you just pointed out ;)
But yes, every Korean that I have ever met in my work or elsewhere has been an extremely hard-working and generally pleasant individual. Conversely, I imagine that the people involved in the Virginia Tech shootings may suddenly think otherwise.
It also points out that you ignored the substance of what I said at face value, and instead focused on the one and only thing that you were concerned about, which was disappointing. That's okay, most people do the same thing, including myself.
The thing is, you can go back and forth on all these arguments all you want, but what really happens is that you get more and more focused on your own brainwaves, and more and more intolerant of the other ideas that are being spread.
Did you see that? You were totally intolerant of my point of view. Everyones intolerant, and everyone is bigoted. If you become so intolerant of viewpoints that aren't tolerant, you're not very tolerant in reality, Monica. No one can accept every other viewpoint, so bigotry and oppression will always exist in some format. If a "progressive" viewpoint is to be made dominant in society, that means it needs something to dominate. If conservative or traditionalist ideals were to come back in style, then those would dominate the other.
It's a never-ending cycle, and in the end you really can't put that much energy into it, all you can do is to be sure that you're trying to be good and fair to those around you. |
|
|
|
05/12/2007 08:43:44 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
But yes, every Korean that I have ever met in my work or elsewhere has been an extremely hard-working and generally pleasant individual. |
Asians in general have very different cultural norms that lead us to this perception.
America has a "high-context" culture, where words carry a lot of weight. Most Asian countries are "low-context" cultures, where status, gestures, and what is NOT said is more important than the words you do hear.
America is a very individualistic society. Asian countries place emphasis on group achievements.
There's a lot more to it, but when you put those two things together, and Americans tend to perceive Asians, in general, as being quiet, hard-working and polite when compared to themselves.
|
|
|
|
05/12/2007 08:57:35 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Originally posted by wavelength:
But yes, every Korean that I have ever met in my work or elsewhere has been an extremely hard-working and generally pleasant individual. |
Asians in general have very different cultural norms that lead us to this perception.
America has a "high-context" culture, where words carry a lot of weight. Most Asian countries are "low-context" cultures, where status, gestures, and what is NOT said is more important than the words you do hear.
America is a very individualistic society. Asian countries place emphasis on group achievements.
There's a lot more to it, but when you put those two things together, and Americans tend to perceive Asians, in general, as being quiet, hard-working and polite when compared to themselves. |
I think that's an interesting study, I'd hypothesize that that many Americans or just westerners that meet Asians feel that they are arrogant, rude, and stand-offish because of their cultural norms, and they the same of us. I can't really fully speak on that, because most of the guys I've met were pretty Americanized (seemingly).
I was once in the home of a Korean scientist that was working with my father-in-law at the DOE, they were all so friendly, and his wife Ho-Yung (I've forgotten his name) loved our daughter so much that she sent us presents for her for almost a year afterward. Very nice people and a great expreience. Their living arrangements were very interesting, because they all were so used to not having much space in Korea, everyhing but the living room was all what you might expect to see in a small apartment over there. Mats rolled up in the corner that they apparently slept on, and all very spare. They had a 3 bedroom apartment but all 3 kids still slept in the same room. It's amazing to think of how much bloat I have in my house compared to what I remember of that.
He was also VERY respectful of my FIL, and Roger is a pretty un-assuming guy. Okay, he's a frickin genious so he has his arrogant streaks, but he would never lord over anyone. He certainly wouldn't have expected every one of his employees to treat him like that man did.
Message edited by author 2007-05-12 20:58:11. |
|
|
|
05/12/2007 09:02:33 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Originally posted by wavelength:
But yes, every Korean that I have ever met in my work or elsewhere has been an extremely hard-working and generally pleasant individual. |
Asians in general have very different cultural norms that lead us to this perception.
America has a "high-context" culture, where words carry a lot of weight. Most Asian countries are "low-context" cultures, where status, gestures, and what is NOT said is more important than the words you do hear.
America is a very individualistic society. Asian countries place emphasis on group achievements.
There's a lot more to it, but when you put those two things together, and Americans tend to perceive Asians, in general, as being quiet, hard-working and polite when compared to themselves. |
I think that's an interesting study, I'd hypothesize that that many Americans or just westerners that meet Asians feel that they are arrogant, rude, and stand-offish because of their cultural norms, and they the same of us. I can't really fully speak on that, because most of the guys I've met were pretty Americanized (seemingly).
|
Yeah, that's the other side. Perception is the influence of a person's own personality, experiences, and attitudes through which any given situation is viewed. Some see quiet and polite. Others read arrogance and rudeness. It depends on your background.
|
|
|
|
05/13/2007 01:14:30 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by pcody:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by pcody:
My point way back there before I went to sleep was, Rosa Parks didn't just sit and talk about a change. |
We don't all have time to risk ruining our lives and getting arrested to be matryrs. People are more comfortable staying where they are safely. |
That is the problem. How far would any movement get if everyone expects someone else to be the actual martyr?
What I have noticed in life is those that are willing to be the martyr are usually the ones that succeed. The ones that overcome their fears and act are the ones that press past the ones that want to blame the world for their lack of success.
Live in your books if you want, but don't forget to read some biographies about successful women. You might learn that their incredible luck isn't really luck after all. It's not because they got a free pass or because of their gender or their family's wealth. Just maybe it is because they thought and planned on being successful and didn't give up until they were. Instead of studying the failures in society, try studying the ones that beat the odds. Think about how they did it.
You know, people are starving in other countries? It's sorta like this problem you're trying to get people to see. |
You are missing the point completely AGAIN. Women (and minorities) shouldn't have to struglle to BEAT THE ODDS! We should be EQUAL. PERIOD. Sure, like I said, I can make my own life a success as many women have, and YES I do study successes, I'm not here moping and looking at FAILURES that is NOT what feminism is about, that is what the media paints it as and people eat up like candy. WAS THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT ABOUT FAILURE!?!?! Please stop pretending you know something about the women's movement, it's obvious you don't. |
|
|
|
05/13/2007 01:18:07 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
FACT: Women can have the SAME job, SAME qualifications, and SAME hours as a man and still get less pay.
FACT: More women are in underpaid "female" dominated fields.
|
FACT: In typically male dominated fields (e.g. Engineering & Computers) women have a large advantage when it comes to getting hired, salary (both starting AND raises), promotions, bonuses and job preference.
When I was filling an engineer position at my last job, I was strongly encouraged to hire a female engineer over more qualified male applicants. Her starting salary offer was 15% higher than what was discussed for the male applicants and she was the only candidate offered a sign-on bonus.
I've also seen female engineers promoted into management over male engineers with much better qualifications. I've seen better qualified male candidates offered bonuses to withdraw from consideration for promotions internally so that the job could be offered to a female employee. |
That is one company! You can't expect to claim it's like that everywhere. And I'll tell you what that sounds like, affirmative action. Which is another touchy subject in itself. It's trying to level the playing field by giving women and minorites what may APPEAR to be an unfair advantage to MAKE UP for the lack of advantages that they have had for hundreds of years. It may hurt you and others to make such descisions on a small scale but on a societal scale it's working for the greater good. BTW, women are most helped by afirmative action, more so than minorities. Most people do not know this.
ANOTHER BTW... My feminist professor was the ONLY female engenineer in her class and constantly got made fun of and had to deal with that pressure and came out of the class with the highest grades. |
|
|
|
05/13/2007 01:22:39 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
EDIT TO ADD: Fathers receive significantly less of this kind of guilting... I'd venture to say almost none unless he's a workaholic. |
Wanna bet?
As a stay at home dad for the past year, my experience has been great in terms of spending time with my kids, but from most adults, I get a great deal of, "Gee, why aren't you working to support your family?"
At work, when I made time to spend with my family, the guilt trip was worse, with many co-workers suggesting that I was letting the "team" down and that I was not pulling my weight, even though my numbers were at or near the top of every performance metric. |
I do appologize. I was more so refering to men do not get guilted when they choose work. It is a matter of "where you belong". Where as men "belong" in the work place to society, women sort of belong neither pplaces stilll and as someone elsel mentioned, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't sitution. I completely agree with your side of this. Men do have a hard time sometimes going into female dominated areas but that is part of feminism too, believe it or not. Feminists don't want that either BUT it still does not mean that men are oppressed. Example: Perhaps a man working in a preschool might get made fun of working there by his friends or family, but I'll bet he gets praises from the coworkers and parents and gets notived more by the bosses. I am a preschool photographer and I even find myself thinkg "hey, that's so great that he likes working with kids" when well... it is so great that ANYONE wants to work with kids. lol. |
|
|
|
05/13/2007 01:33:24 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Are you kidding me? All of the generalizations you just through out there in the first parapraph illustrate my point. No one is aware of all the stereotypes we think of as FACT. Koreans and their good work ethic. That may seem like a compliment but generalizing never is. How many Koreans do you actually know? Not enough to say that as fact. You are in one part of the world, in one company, with a few Koreans around and suddenly think you know something about the people of an entire COUNTRY.
Doesn't it anger you when people say Americans are all fat lazy rednecks? TRUE there might be a lot of them here, that doesn't mean the WHOLE country is all that. My point. Stereotypes may ring true in some instances but they are never for ALL people and white men have significantly less stereotyping because they are seen as neutral or normal in our society.. You don't have a lazy white dude you work with and say "man all white guys are so lazy" you say "that dude is lazy". But when a woman, black person, Korean, acts a certain way, it's a credit to that entire group. It's absolutely absurd. |
I've been skimming through this thread and I gotta say, this is a bit hypocritical - you accuse him of generalizing, yet your entire position is based on a generalized statistic - i.e. women make less than men, etc. Think about it. There are women who make more than their male counterparts. There are women who work harder than Koreans. You either have to allow someone to use generalizations in the debate or you have to stop using them for it to be fair and honest, IMO.
And in the interest of full disclosure (and at the risk of incurring Monica's wrath), I am in the "stop whining" camp and also believe that the numbers are skewed by choices made by women. Unless you can show me that the comparisons are "all things equal" (education, experience, time with the same company, etc.), the stats hold no water, IMO.
The fact is that EVERYONE has something discriminating about them - too fat, too skinny, - oh I forgot - you can never be... :-) - short, black, female, ugly, smelly, have a lithp, etc. Should we all form groups of people with similar attributes that seem to be working against us and then compile statistics to prove our case? Then what? Force companies to hire us fat, smelly, lithping folks and give us the same salary as those "beautiful people"? Sorry. We all have things to overcome and some more than others - life is not fair - get over it. In America (and probably many other capitalist countries), if you don't like what you are being paid, go find a job that will pay you more, or go start your own business where your income is only limited by your own capabilities and willingness to work.
I am not arguing that there may still be unfairness between genders, but I would argue that it is dissipating and I see more and more men staying at home taking care of the kids while the woman brings home the money (I would be all over that if I could!).
LOL - I think I've said enough. :D |
I don't think you know what you are talking about. PLEASE read up on feminsm and the issues before you start calling me a hypocrite. WOMEN MAKE LESS THAN MEN is a fact, not a generalization. OF COURSE THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS... but when you are talking STATISTICS you don't say but hey, my mom makes more than my dad. It's a societal thing. I don't know how many more times I can say this. Feminism is about society. Not man hating, not women loving, it's a want to make society more balanced.
If I was GENERALIZING about females I'ds say: Females are bad drivers.
another example: Ethiopia is low income country.... OH BUT MONICA! THe Royalty of Ethiopia has LOTS of money, stop generalizing.
Please. You are comparing apples and oranges.
To the rest of your arguement, it's so rediculous I don 't know where to start. I am not say "I am a woman and I am oppressed and I want my life better and I'm blaming men" So throwing out that fat ugly nonsense is so silly. Women are more than half the population and we are NOT represented AT ALL close to that in positions of power. This is the simplist way I can put it. And those with the power want to keep it.
Have you BEEN TO a ghetto? Cus you can't have been living under a rock. PLEASE go there and get out on the streets in your high horse and tell them all to get a "better job" or "start your own business". We are not in the land of milk and honey as some believe. THere are not opportunities for everyone to succeed. Feminism is about leveling the playing field, for all, minorities included, this also includes gays. You CANNOT tell me that there is still no sexism, racism, and descrimination agaist gays. THat is still going into our laws! Gays are having rights TAKE AWAY!
Please STOP making this an idividual discussion. It is about SOCIETY. |
|
|
|
05/13/2007 01:58:19 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
FACT: Women can have the SAME job, SAME qualifications, and SAME hours as a man and still get less pay.
FACT: More women are in underpaid "female" dominated fields.
|
FACT: In typically male dominated fields (e.g. Engineering & Computers) women have a large advantage when it comes to getting hired, salary (both starting AND raises), promotions, bonuses and job preference.
When I was filling an engineer position at my last job, I was strongly encouraged to hire a female engineer over more qualified male applicants. Her starting salary offer was 15% higher than what was discussed for the male applicants and she was the only candidate offered a sign-on bonus.
I've also seen female engineers promoted into management over male engineers with much better qualifications. I've seen better qualified male candidates offered bonuses to withdraw from consideration for promotions internally so that the job could be offered to a female employee. |
That is one company! You can't expect to claim it's like that everywhere. And I'll tell you what that sounds like, affirmative action. Which is another touchy subject in itself. It's trying to level the playing field by giving women and minorites what may APPEAR to be an unfair advantage to MAKE UP for the lack of advantages that they have had for hundreds of years. It may hurt you and others to make such descisions on a small scale but on a societal scale it's working for the greater good. BTW, women are most helped by afirmative action, more so than minorities. Most people do not know this.
ANOTHER BTW... My feminist professor was the ONLY female engenineer in her class and constantly got made fun of and had to deal with that pressure and came out of the class with the highest grades. |
While my hiring experience may be with only one company, I have heard similar stories from other managers in technical fields so I know my situation is far from unique.
My experience with seeing less qualified women promoted ahead of more qualified men is not unique to my last position either. I do not mean cases where the differential is small, or in any way close, but more like the woman will have a B.S. degree in a technical field and 4 years of experience and the man will have a MBA and a M.S. in a technical field and 12 years of experience. Yet the man is passed over or worse; given money to withdraw from consideration so the woman can be promoted. Hiring a woman that way is no different than hiring a man simply because he's a man. It's discrimination either way and should not be any part of an EOE workplace.
There were plenty of female engineers in my school, I never heard or saw anything from professors or other students that they were any less accepted or seen as less capable than any other student. While your professor's experience was unfortunate, I highly doubt such treatment exists today in U.S. engineering schools.
I don't believe that gender should play a role in hiring at all. While I'm sure that women do face discrimination, turning it around and discriminating against men is NOT the solution
BTW, I was discouraged from getting my engineering degree simply because I was significantly older than my fellow students and my first undergraduate degree was in a "fluffy" subject; Art.
|
|
|
|
05/13/2007 02:20:18 PM · #71 |
THIS ONE IS TOO LONG TO GRAPPLE WITH SO SORRY FOR THE ALL CAPS, IT'S JUST EASIER
Originally posted by theSaj:
How equal are men?
Ironically, not as equal as many pre-suppose. We are taught at a very young age how eveil we are. Where as teachers inform us that girls are made from everything nice where as boys are made from snails and puppy dog tails. Furthermore, at least in my personal case, everytime I heard this as a young impressionable child it came from an adult female in an authority position.
More women are going to college than men. Males are finding it more and more difficult to receive funding or support for post-secondary education.
"Women still have unequal pay in the US." Many such studies simply address women versus men based on education level achieved and not necessarily on the type of education. Few women major in the hard sciences such as math, engineering, computer science, etc. These also happen to be jobs that tend to pay higher for the same education level.
YOU FAIL TO LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE OF WHY MEN AND WOMEN CHOOSE THESE CAREERS. IT'S ALL IN SOCIALIZATION! GIRLS ARE TAUGHT THAT THEY AREN'T AS GOOD AT THESE THINGS.
"We have horrible maternity leave and child care, rediculously high domestic abuse cases with inadequat punishment and protection, rapes, murders."
What women consider horrible maternity leave far exceeds the paternity leave granted to men. Few men receive even a day or two let alone two weeks that is not uncommon for women. While one may argue necessity if one breast feeds. For the many who simply use formula there is little excuse. Right off the bat the man is distanced from the baby. Later there is criticism for not being as supportive while in truth the man has not had as much opportunity to bond.
MY SUGGESTION WAS, LIKE GERMANY, TO HAVE A 2 YEAR LEAVE MATERNITY OR PATERNITY. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE COMPANY DUDE. MEN CAN RECIEVE PATERNITY LEAVE. 2 TO 3 WEEKS FOR WOMEN IS BARELY ENOUGH TIME TO REST FROM THE ORDEAL. SHE JUST CARRIED A BABY ON HER STOMACH FOR 9 MONTHS AND THEN PUSHES IT OUT HER VAGINA AND YOU THINK IT'S UNFAIR SHE GETS TIME OFF? GIMMIE A BREAK. I'M ALL FOR PATERNITY LEAVE BUT THAT'S JUST TOO FAR.
Domestic abuse is far from limited to just females. Though sadly, due to the natural physical balance of males and females it does tend to be a more common abuse against women. Murders, I think protection is inadequate for both male and female and do not see it as a "female issue".
YES THERE ARE ABUSIVE FEMALES BUT THE RATIOS OF INJURY ARE NO WHERE NEAR WHERE THEY ARE WITH FEMALES. AND A LOT OF THE ABUSE STATS ON MALES COME FROM GAY COUPLES. MURDER OF WOMEN BY MEN, MEANING DOMESTIC MURDERS. LOOK UP YOUR STATS ON HOW MANY WOMEN ARE KILLED BY EXES, WHILE BEING RAPED ETC. THERE ARE PLENTY OF STORIES OF A MAN NOT BEING PUT IN JAIL AFTER A DOMESTIC DISPUTE, OF IF HE IS, VERY BRIEFLY, ONLY TO GET OUT AND KILL HER. THIS IS A FEMALE ISSUE.
As for rape, this is a travesty to be sure. But you want to talk about lack of protections. Parents of young male minors who have been preyed upon by female adults have found that no laws existed for rape charges in some cases because all the laws were written under assumption for the benefit of females.
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. STATUTORY RAPE IS STATUATORY RAPE. THERE ARE LAWS. AND THOSE ARE RARE CASES. BESIDES, FEMINISM IS FOR THE PROTECTION OF CHILDREN. YOU MISUNDERSTAND, IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT WOMEN. STRONGER CHARGES ON CHILD MOLESTERS ARE ALWAYS ISSUES ON THE TABLE. PLEASE STOP TRYING TO ONE UP ME BY SAYING IT CAN HAPPEN TO MAN, I REALIZE.
Date rape laws are excrutiating biased in this matter. In which two individuals have a drink. Then have sex. The woman can press for rape where as the man has no defense. Even if the man had refused interest on the part of the girl repeatedly and was passed out drunk and the woman raped him in the dorms. In many states, the man is unable to charge for rape but could face charges. A very unjust situation to be sure.
IF THIS IS TRUE, THEN OF COURSE. BUT I'D LIKE TO SEE YOUR SOURCES. TO BE SURE, I DOUBT MANY MALES REPORT IT AND IT'S A RARE OCCASION. DON'T THINK I DON'T KNOW THIS, IT HAS HAPPENED TO A MALE FRIEND OF MINE. HIS FRIENDS HIRED WHAT THEY THOUGHT WERE STIPPERS FOR HIS BIRTHDAY (TURNED OUT TO BE HOOKERS) AND THEY BASICALLY RAPED HIM WHILE HE WAS ALMOST PASS OUT DRUNK. IT IS NOT FUN. THE MALE THING IS TO PRETEND IT'S OK, WHEN IT CLEARLY ISN'T. THIS IS AN ISSUE. SAME WITH FEMALES BEING TO ASHAMED TO REPORT THEIR RAPES. RAPE IS A TOUCHY SUBJECT ON EITHER END.
"Reproduction rights are constantly under attack" If you mean the right to use birth control. I see very little attack. If you mean the right to end another being's life (and don't say "part of my body" because that is scientifically been disproven) - than no. Your right should not exceed to the point of meaning another human being's death.
LETS NOT TALK ABORTION. IT'S A WHOLE NOTHER THREAD IN ITSELF. ANOTHER EXAMPLE, THE MORNING AFTER PILL. THE FDA APPROVED IT FOR OVER THE COUNTER AND IT WAS HELD BACK FOR A WHILE (STILL MIGHT BE IN SOME STATES? IM NOT SURE) BECAUSE IT "PROMOTED PROMISCUITY" AND EVEN MORE SO BY PEOPLE THINKING IT IS JUST AN EARLY ABORTION (WHICH IT'S NOT, IT GETS RID OF THE EGG BEFORE THE SPERM EVEN REACHES IT, WHICH TAKES 7 DAYS, HELLO KNOWLEDGE. SINCE WHEN IS THAT A GOVERNMENTAL CONCERN? PEOPLE CAN HAVE SEX AS MUCH AS THEY WANT. THE MORNING AFTER PILL IS A GOOD THING, IT PREVENTS ABORTIONS, WHICH IS WHAT THEY CLAIM TO NOT WANT. THINK ABOUT RAPE VICTIMS, ESP ONES THAT ARE TOO SCARED OR ASHAMED TO GO THE DOCTOR. AVAILABILITY OF THE PILL COULD BE CRUCIAL.
YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT FAIRNESS AND EQUALITY. LET'S TALK!
1. Are you ready to have every woman register for selective service, being potentially drafted for combat duty? If not, than there is no equality.
SURE. THOUGH I DON'T THINK ANYONE SHOULD HAVE TO. IM A PACIFIST.
2. Why when I was in the Coast Guard Academy were the physical requirements different for women than for men. We had to climb over a wall. For the women however they received a wall that was much shorter. I am short... 5'6" on a good day. Supposedly the wall tested upper body strength but really it only tested how tall you were. I had the upper body strength to pull myself over with only two finger tips but most of the time I couldn't jump high enough to get those fingers onto the top of the wall. So I commonly failed the wall. Was I supposed to think I am equal with a woman when a 6ft+ woman is given a wall a couple feet shorter than I. How is that equal.
I COULDN'T TELL YOU. IM NOT INTO LOOKING UP THE WHOLE MILITARY THING. THE MILITARY WAS DESIGNED FOR MEN AND THEY ARE TRYING TO LEVEL IT FOR WOMEN. SORRY IF YOU THINK THIS IS UNFAIR BUT SOME WOMEN AREN'Y EVEN 5 FOOT, TRY HAVING THEM CLIMB YOUR MANLY WALL.
In truth, every man in a squad needs to carry his weight. When every man has a 100 lbs pack. Is it fair for a woman to only have to carry 80 lbs thus forcing each of the men to carry an extra 5 lbs? Is that equality?
OUR BODIES AREN'T EQUAL. IM SORRY, THIS IS AN ISSUE I HAVE NOT STUDIED. THAT IS NOT SOCIETY, THAT IS A SMALL SECTOR OF IT. I COULD BRING UP EXAMPLES FROM ALL KINDS OF INDIVIDUAL PLACES BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT IM HERE TO TALK ABOUT REALLY.
3. Recent studies have shown that the general well-being of men is in decline. They are being less educated. And are falling behind on the lifespan and quality of living. This is seldom mentioned.
"I myself spent several hours READING articles to my boyfriend before he would agree with me that women ARE still oppressed."
Maybe you should realize that most commoners are oppressed and it doesn't matter whether you're male or female, white or black, heterosexual or homosexual. You really want to talk descrimination and unfair pay in the workplace. Talk about heavy versus thin. Regardless if both are in good shape. Talk about tall versus short. A short stocky person will routinely be paid less and receive less advancement and promotion for the same work and education level.
PROVE IT. BESIDES THIS IS SUCH A SILLY POINT IVE ADDRESS SOOO MANY TIMES. AND TELL ME IF THERE ARE ANY FAT PEOPLE IN CONGRESS, I CAN ASSURE YOU THERE ARE PLENTY. LETS KEEP ON TOPIC, THIS IS NOT PROVING ANY POINT YOU ARE JUST GRASPING AT STRAWS.
Frankly, I find this post uninformed and divisive. Now, that is not to say there is not discrimination nor bigotry. But rather it is to inform you that such prejudices are experience all around. It's usually simply assumed that "white men" suffer no prejudice or discrimination. THIS IS NOT SO. I have experienced it numerous times in my life. Reverse discrimination and hatred simply for the color of my skin. Criticism and dismissal in scholastic environment simply because of being male. Yes, My 5th/6th grade teacher actually expressed that she disliked boys. (Then WHY DIDN'T SHE GO TEACH AT AN ALL GIRLS SCHOOL instead of making my life hell?)
OHHH SOOO SORRY YOUR ONE TEACHER WAS BITTER. THAT DOES NOT PROVE ANYTHING! I NEVER SAID WHITE MALES DO NOT RECIEVE DESCRMINATION. BUT LIVE ONE DAY AS A BLACK FEMALE AND I CAN ASSURE YOU YOU'D CHANGE YOUR TUNE. IT IS NOT THE SAME.
And don't tell me that I grew up benefited. I grew up poorer than most people called minorities. I grew up in a violent and drug filled home. I went to the same crappy public schools. You want to know the difference? I busted my butt. In high school when most of my classmates were getting home at 2pm I was getting home at 5pm and 10pm....FROM CLASS. That's right. Then I'd have homework, chores, and all the rest of the crud.
YOU THINK MY LIFE WAS GREAT? STOP GIVING ME INDIVIDUAL STORIES. SOCIETAL, SOCIETAL, SOCIETAL, OVER AND OVER AND OVER I WILL SAY IT. TO BE HONEST, THE TYPE OF HOME I GREW UP IN I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHY I TURNED OUT SUCH A GOOD STUDENT. BUT I DID. AND SOME PEOPLE HAVE IT IN THEM FROM THE START AND THAT IS GREAT. SOME DON'T AND WILL NEVER HAVE A CHANCE IF NOT GUIDED THE RIGHT WAY. YOU SHOULD BE PROUD OF YOUR ACCOMPLISHMENTS BUT DON'T TRY AND DISREGARD THE FACT THAT YOUR SITUATION WILL NOT BE EVERYONES AND THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT HAVE A HARD TIME GETTING OUT OF BAD PLACES, JUST LIKE THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT CAN HAVE ALL THE ADVANTAGES IN THE WORLD AND COME OUT LIKE CRAP.
BUT DON'T TELL ME THAT WHEN YOU ARE WALKING DOWN THE STREET PEOPLE CAN JUDGE YOUR UPBRINGING BY YOUR COLOR. THAT EMPLOYERS HAVE PRECONCEPTIONS ABOUT YOU LIVING IN A SHITTY PLACE BECAUSE OF YOUR COLOR. THE POINT HERE IS VISIBILITY. YOU COME IN AN OFFICE, AND A RICH BLACK MAN COMES IN THE OFFICE BUT YOU ARE BOTH DRESSED THE SAME, WHERE DOES THE ASSUMPTION OF UPBRINGING GO?
*****
That said, I am a staunch supporter of equality. I dislike modern femisnism because most of the feminist movement today is merely a "masculinist" movement. It has almost zero respect for anything feminine. It is all about being men. That's stupid. You know what....I believe there are women capable of doing pretty much everything. But I think anyone is a fool to think that if I took a general selection of a 100 women and put them against a 100 females that the women would be stronger. Just a natural physical difference. That does NOT devalue women. Few men have the endurance that many women have.
TRUE feminism is not about women trying to be men. It is about respecting with equal value that which makes women - women. A woman who breast feeds her child is true feminism. And it should be viewed with respect, awe, and admiration. I don't care if a woman can take steroids and pump iron. So you've proved a few women can excel in more masculine traits. So.....what. Is that feminism? No!
Should a woman be paid the same as a man for equal work. Yes. That is equality. Everyone should be paid the same for the same type and quality of work. AND I'LL STAND AND FIGHT FOR THAT.
But feminism should not merely protect the right of a woman to work and to unload any burdens that could prevent her from do so (so called reproductive rights). But rather feminism should be focused on demanding equivalent respect and admiration and compensation for that which is feminine.
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ONE TYPE OF FEMINISM. NOT ALL FEMINISTS THINK THE SAME. NOT ALL FEMINIST WANT TO GET RID OF FAMILIES AND BE MEN. THAT IS A SMALL PORTION, THE ONE THAT IS FOCUSED ON AND RIDICULED. THERE IIISSS A SECT OF FEMINISM THAT LIKES TO FOCUS ON THE FEMALE. I WON'T SAY WHICH IS WHICH BECAUSE IM NOT 100% SURE BUT THAT IS WHAT I KNOW. THERE ARE LIBERAL, RADICAL, SOCIALIST, ETC, ETC, FEMINISTS THAT HAVE DIFFERING VIEWS ON HOW THINGS SHOULD BE. YOU CAN'T JUST PICK ON AND SAY ALL FEMINIST ARE LIKE THAT.
"there are still no laws agaist paying women less for the jobs they do then men. Illustration: teachers and professors. Really bad pay ratios. "
Really, funny, almost every company I've ever seen advertise a position has included a notice of being an equal opportunity employer. THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU KNOW WHAT THEY PAY THEIR EMPLOYEES. BE REAL.
Comparing teachers to professors...what does this mean. Most payment for teachers and professors is based on education/certification levels + seniority. Where does sex come in?
YOU MISUNDERSTAND. THE RATIOS BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN IN THESE 2 FIELDS ARE REALLY BAD, NOT THE FIELD PITTED AGAINST EACHOTHER.
"Basically feminists want to end the oppression of women."
THIS IS WHERE I SAY FEMINIST IS SEXEST AND DANGEROUS...
It divides. Right there in that statement is division. So feminists merely care about women and no one else. Than if that is the case why should we not have masculinists who merely care about men?
Do you not see the inherent fundamental problem?
AHHHAHAHAHAH. I HAVE SAID THIS ALREADY. IN ORDER TO CARE ABOUT FEMINIST ISSUES YOU REALLY HAVE TO CARE ABOUT ALL ISSUES, FEMALES ARE INHERINTLY HALF OF ALL MINORITIES THEREFOR FEMINISTS MUST CARE ABOUT MINORITY AND GAY RIGHTS AS WELL. THERE IS A MALE FEMALE DIVIDE AND WOMEN ARE ON THE LOWER END, SO POINTING THAT OUT IS DIVIDING? NO. IT'S TRYING TO STOP THE DIVISION.
Rather, an equalist seeks the end of oppression of all and the equality of everyone. Can not all of feminist's goals be achived under that without the need to divide and create such boundaries you claim to be opposing?
"NOW"
NOW lost all my respect when they supported President Clinton as he cheated and abused his wife. Just for politics.
WE ARE NOT TO BE CONSCERNED WITH A PRESIDENTS PRIVATE LIFE. GET OVER IT. IF THEY LIKED HIS POLICIES THEN SO BE IT. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ALL THAT CHEATING BULL SHIT. LOTS OF PRESIDENTS DID IT, AT LEAST HE TRIED TO BE DESCRETE, UNLIKE KENEDY.
"FACT: Women can have the SAME job, SAME qualifications, and SAME hours as a man and still get less pay."
Yes, this still happens and should be fought against. But why not expand it. Fight against it for all people.
"FACT: More women are in underpayed "female" dominated fields."
FACT, women repeatedly choose less demanded and less rated fields. In fact numerous schools have tried massive campaigns and dumped hundreds of thousands of dollars into attracting females to degrees such as engineering, physics, etc. But they don't go.
WHY?
Is it fair to then complain of lower pay?
"A woman gives up education and career to be a stay at home mom and do the family thing. She is putting in the work (roughly) of 2 full time jobs but is not getting paid for any of it and is not gaining any "work" experience."
Meanwhile, the man is working a full time job + overtime. Plus a part time job or more of being a father. And is often taking care of all the finances. Yeah, it's easy to be complained about that "hey I dealt with the kids all day". But how often is the hours spent dealign with the finances and other stuff credited to that working father? Or the fact that the father is going to work so that his wife can be gifted to be with the children.
My dream...is that both my wife and I could stay home with our child. To watch her grow. To build memories. That's just not possible.
Ironically, often when the case is reversed and the woman maintains the career and the father is a stay at home dad the husband is treated condenscendingly. Criticized for not adding financially. And not appreciated for his work even less than women are.
"They both put in a LOT of work to create that family BUT the woman has nothing "tangible" to show for it."
Hence, if the man leaves and divorces the wife there is a concept called alimony.
"Sure the wife might get child support and alamony but chances are it's not enough. "
On the flip side, it can often be far more than the man's own family gets. I've known of situations of women with kids from 3 different father collecting child support + welfare driving new cars, living with all the luxuries. Where as the ex-husband is paying many times more in child support than his other children receive. Is that fair too?
Originally posted by "pcody":
For us to cease living in a "victim" society, shouldn't we first stop thinking of ourselves as victims? |
Right on!
"That's a big thing. SHAME. You are never ASHAMED of being robbed but there is a stigma on abuse victims because of this blaming. that is why so many cases go unreported. "
I remember hearing a statistic:
1 in 4 women will be sexually abused or raped before 20.
1 in 10 men will be sexually abused or raped before 20.
Though they had an asterick because some believe that figure to be much higher. People talk about how rape goes unreported for women. It's far far far less likely to go reported for men. And I'd say it's much higher because in my life I have known many friends who were abused. In fact probably as many male friends as females.
WHAT'S YOUR POINT. THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING. IM NOT SAYING ONLY FIX THE FEMALE RAPE PROBLEM. I WANT RAPE TO BE OK TO TALK ABOUT FOR ANYONE AND YOU'LL BE HARD PRESSED TO FIND A FEMINIST WHO THINKS DIFFERENTLY. THERE IS MUCH MOLESTATION AGAINST LITTLE BOYS, I KNOW THAT. I THINK A LOT LESS RAPE IN MEN THOUGH. EITHER CASE, YES, I WANT MEN TO BE ABLE TO COME OUT TOO.
"Here is an example... teachers pay more attention to male students, are more likely to call on them when their hands are raised, and more likely to praise them with "neutral" and encouraged terms such as "smart" "Leader" etc"
WHERE IN THE WORLD DID YOU GET THIS STATISTIC
I went to nigh a dozen schools. And I can say from what I saw females almost always received more praise and consideration.
I WISH I COULD FIND IT. I REALLY DIDN'T MAKE IT UP, I READ IT IN AN ARTICLE BUT WHERE IT IS I COULDN'T TELL YOU. AGAIN, YOU CAN'T TAKE YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AS FACT OVER STATISTICS.
"corresponding commercials to show this. TV and movies, damsels in distress, heroic males... the freakin womens channels are nothing but women getting stalked, beaten, raped, killed going insane or starving themselves."
Maybe you need to modernize your viewing. Watch more science fiction. Where women are repeatedly being shown as strong, good leaders, etc. Aliens anyone? Ivanova (Babylon 5). Starbuck & the President "Battlestar Galactica".
OF COURSE THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS. BUT SUPER MAN, BATMAN, SPIDER MAN, EVEN THE X MEN ARE MOSTLY MEN, I LOVE THAT SHOW WHEN I WAS A KID BECAUSE OF THE FEW LADIES IT HAD, SAME WITH CAPTAIN PLANET. TRANSFORMERS, ETC, ETC. AND SINCE WHEN DO KIDS WATCH ALIENS?
"Think... DEVIL WEARS PRADA. If that was a MAN as the boss he wouldn't be a bitch or a hag, or whatever you might say to describe the Streep character, he'd be a business man, a dedicated worker, etc. "
He'd have been thrown out of his job due to lawsuits saying he was a bigot. Proof that your so called desire for equality and lack of oppression is often simply mis-interpretation.
THAT IS NOT TRUE! YOU JUST THROUGH THAT OUT THERE TO MAKE A COUNTERPOINT. I CAN ASSURE YOU THERE ARE TONS OF MALE BOSSES LIKE THAT.
"Why is that a choice a MOTHER has to make... family or work, that a FATHER does not?"
Who says....though in truth it often comes down to who makes the most money. Much of this probably ties into the fact that when people tend to get married most of the time men are older. This means they have been in the workplace longer to advance. So when the economics play and there are bills to pay. The family choose the one that pays the most bills.
WHERE ARE YOUR STATS ON MARRIAGE AGES?
WOMEN, want to fix this...marry younger men. We die before you do anyways.
UMM, WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? IF IT IS TRUE THAT WOMEN MARRY OLDER MEN, YOU THINK THE MEN ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT IT? THAT'S A SOCIETAL THING. THINK DAY TIME TALK SHOWS, EVEN MOVIES. KEEP THE OLD MAN AND KEEP SHUFFLING IN NEW YOUNG LADIES. SEAN CONNERY IS STILL HOT BUT LIZ TAYLOR... OHHH NO. LOL, SILLY EXAMPLE I KNOW BUT SERIOUSLY. AGING IS MORE NEGATIVELY LOOKED UPON IN WOMEN THAN MEN.
Originally posted by "yanko":
Btw, do you feel you have had an advantage in your life because you are attractive and thin? Do you feel people not as attractive and not as thin as you are "oppressed"? Just curious. |
This plays out more than anything else. My mom just wound up in an altercation with a past tenant. It's real complex involving police. She was working with one officer. And others came to handle the situation. However, as soon as they saw the tenant who is hot and sexy versus my 50+ mother - they came down on my mom. Who was arested. Totally injust. And we are actually encouraging my mother to consider filing a sexual discrimination lawsuit against the city on this matter.
But this brings up another matter. How often do women take advantage of their feminimity. I've had so many female friends who have been let off of driving tickets by acting cute, playing ignorant, etc. In fact, I have very few female friends who don't attest to such.
I know of no male friends who've had similar experiences.
OK? SURE THERE IS THIS. WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH OPPRESSION? IT IS NOT FAIR WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR MOTHER. I HAVE A BIG PROBLEM WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THEY ARE GENERALLY UNJUST AND BIASED. YOU ARE BRINGING OUT ALL SORTS IF IRRELEVANT TID BITS.
I HAD A COP CALL MY FRIENDS GAY BECAUSE ONE WAS CARRYING A DRESS AND THE OTHER HAD SHAGGY HAIR, HARRASING HIM AND TOLD HIM TO "GET A HAIRCUT." I WITNESSED A COP BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF AN OLD HISPANIC MAN FOR RUNNING TOO CLOSE TO THE TORCH DURING THE OLYMPIC RUNNING OF THE TORCH. MANY COPS ARE ON POWER TRIPS, THIS IS A PROBLEM. AND MEN ARE GREAT PEOPLE.
"It has been interesting reading this thread, as I hadn't realy appreciated just how far apart America and Britain were on these issues. I haven't got time to contribute now, but shall return to the thread later today to give a view from 'across the pond'."
America is probably less far apart, if not more excelling. We just tend to be more vocal.
"You are seriously misinformed. Look at the consequences of Rosa Park's actions. Sure she became a legend, but I can gaurantee a lot of other people found themselves in similar situations and did NOT get this status. They got punished and that was the end of it."
You are quite right. Having personally been in Rosa Parks situation I will say I got no notice or remark. But when enough do, sometimes it kindles a fire.
"I'm sorry is there something WRONG with spreading knowledge and awareness? That's not asking for validation. "
Only when you're not giving a full explanation nor open to understanding that others suffer as well in like manner.
WHEN DID I DO THIS? OF COURSE EVERY INDIVIDUAL HAS THEIR OWN ISSUES, SUFFERING HURTS. THIS IS NOT ABOUT INDIVIDUALS. IT'S ABOUT SOCIETY, WHICH IS A STRANGE ENTITIY ALL IT'S OWN FUELING AND FUELED BY INDIVIDUALS. YOU CAN'T KEEP ARGUING WITH LITTLE PERSONAL STORIES. SEND ME FACTS, STATS, STUDIES.
"Men make their deals on the golf course, at the bar after work, in the locker room, etc."
WHAT MEN?
I don't know a single man who's made any such deals. Maybe a handful of elite few. But those same elite have women making their deals too.
AGAIN, SINCE WHEN DOES YOU PERSONALLY NOT EXPERIENCING IT MAKE IT FACT. DID YOU EXPERIENCE THE HAULLOCAUST? THIS IS GETTING EXHAUSTING.
Few of us commoners ever get to make such deals.
"That's not equality, and that's not progress. That's affirmative action, and its value is quite contentious. My opinion? When AA is no longer necessary, when your boss no longer feels compelled to strongly encourage you to hire a woman for a particular job, because doing so is not a matter of gender but of qualification, that is when people can start talking about women being treated equally with their male counterparts in the workplace. "
So when women decide to pursue the tougher academic fields.....??? WHEN SOCIETY DECIDES TO ENCOURAGE WOMEN TO DO SO, AND NOT WITH A FEW LAST MINUTE PROGRAMS. YOUR PERSONALITY IS DECIDED EARLY ON IN LIFE AND IF YOU DIDN'T LIKE MATH IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, LITTLE CHANCE THAT ANY AMOUNT OF SCHOOL PROGRAMING WILL MAKE YOU WANT TO BE AN ENGINEER.
"That's what they tell you, eh? When you pass over more qualified candidates and all but mandate the hiring of a specific minority, whether it's to fill a quota, official or unofficial, or to simply make management "feel better" about the illusion of diversity, it's affirmative action. It doesn't have to be a written policy to be what it is."
And if we did away with it, I am sure women would be complaing left and right. So um, who's fault is it that women repeatedly choose NOT to go into such fields (regardless of the fact that admissions, scholarships, higher pay rates, etc) abound? |
|
|
|
|
05/13/2007 02:22:15 PM · #72 |
When women have to beg men for sex and not the other way around, equality will have been reached.
|
|
|
|
05/13/2007 02:24:36 PM · #73 |
someone needs a good spanking
|
|
|
|
05/13/2007 02:25:23 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Are you kidding me? All of the generalizations you just through out there in the first parapraph illustrate my point. No one is aware of all the stereotypes we think of as FACT. Koreans and their good work ethic. That may seem like a compliment but generalizing never is. How many Koreans do you actually know? Not enough to say that as fact. You are in one part of the world, in one company, with a few Koreans around and suddenly think you know something about the people of an entire COUNTRY.
|
Actually I'm not as stupid and backward as you might think, just wondering if anyone would catch on to what you just pointed out ;)
But yes, every Korean that I have ever met in my work or elsewhere has been an extremely hard-working and generally pleasant individual. Conversely, I imagine that the people involved in the Virginia Tech shootings may suddenly think otherwise.
It also points out that you ignored the substance of what I said at face value, and instead focused on the one and only thing that you were concerned about, which was disappointing. That's okay, most people do the same thing, including myself.
The thing is, you can go back and forth on all these arguments all you want, but what really happens is that you get more and more focused on your own brainwaves, and more and more intolerant of the other ideas that are being spread.
Did you see that? You were totally intolerant of my point of view. Everyones intolerant, and everyone is bigoted. If you become so intolerant of viewpoints that aren't tolerant, you're not very tolerant in reality, Monica. No one can accept every other viewpoint, so bigotry and oppression will always exist in some format. If a "progressive" viewpoint is to be made dominant in society, that means it needs something to dominate. If conservative or traditionalist ideals were to come back in style, then those would dominate the other.
It's a never-ending cycle, and in the end you really can't put that much energy into it, all you can do is to be sure that you're trying to be good and fair to those around you. |
What exactly was the point of that? This is rediculous. You set a trap and I fell in, oh congratualtions, you have won. WHAT? Forgive me for being intolerant of intolerance, how silly of me. Let me crawl away now. |
|
|
|
05/13/2007 02:25:47 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
When women have to beg men for sex and not the other way around, equality will have been reached. |
lol. hey i know a few! |
|
|
|
Current Server Time: 08/03/2025 08:49:18 AM  |
Home -
Challenges -
Community -
League -
Photos -
Cameras -
Lenses -
Learn -
Help -
Terms of Use -
Privacy -
Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2025 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 08/03/2025 08:49:18 AM EDT.
|
