Feminism, are women equal yet? (short answer, no!)

05/17/2007 11:58:35 PM · #228

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
I don't quite know enough but obviously there are places far worse than the US (australia, canada, etc) where the women are far more oppressed....

I would really appreciate some substantive empirical evidence that would back up this statement, particularly as it relates to Canada.

Although this country may not lead the pack relative to the issues you allude to, I would seriously doubt that the female population could be considered at being "Far more oppressed"

Ray

Ohhh wow. Sorry. You misinterpereted. I was lumping Canada and Australia with the US, not with the "worse countries"

05/18/2007 12:03:18 AM · #229

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
and the only one we could think of that was directed specifically at men without fitting into the other categories.

"d*ck"

this may show what narrow perception, or how misinformed you are :(
or are you consciously being ignorant about the truth?
twisting the truth in favour of an argument could only get you as far as the next post in DPC ;)

and oh, by the way, i think it might be masculinist to address really important things like our planet earth, mother nature and so forth as females! lol

As I said, that's all we could think of, not that is was the only one. If you have more please by all means fill the list. Please don't call me ignorant. And I'm not twisting. Like I said, that is what the class could think of, and there were men in the class too. Again I encourage you to prove your point.

We may have the earth and the environment but those are things that are pushed aside and trashed too! But this isn't an environmentalist thread... Besides. Men have religion all locked up with god, jesus, father, buddah, mohammed, etc, etc.

crayon

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

05/18/2007 12:06:57 AM · #230

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
and the only one we could think of that was directed specifically at men without fitting into the other categories.

"d*ck"

this may show what narrow perception, or how misinformed you are :(
or are you consciously being ignorant about the truth?
twisting the truth in favour of an argument could only get you as far as the next post in DPC ;)

and oh, by the way, i think it might be masculinist to address really important things like our planet earth, mother nature and so forth as females! lol

As I said, that's all we could think of, not that is was the only one. If you have more please by all means fill the list. Please don't call me ignorant. And I'm not twisting. Like I said, that is what the class could think of, and there were men in the class too. Again I encourage you to prove your point.

at first i really wanted to reply "you're kidding me, right?" but then i realized that, maybe your class needs more participants.

05/18/2007 12:19:34 AM · #231

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Well with rape the thing of it is not just laws. I just focused on the concrete. A lot of it is a societal problem. And again there are way too many rapes being unreported and victims being blamed. Though the laws are in place there are biases and victim blaming in trials. It is about equality in a more abstract way. Men are certainly not as scared to walk down the street alone at night. Men do not really fear being raped, at least I wouldn't think most would in the way women do. What is it something like 1 in 4 women will be raped? I'm not sure, I'll have to look it up. I guess besides laws, more education and a more open environment to report such claims. Examples were given in my class actually. There was a girl in class who told her parents she was raped by a family friend and they told her she was making it up for attention and to drop it. I know this is anecdotal but I don't doubt this happens often. I've heard quite a few stories, esp if it is a family friend, where even if they beleive the girl, they don't pursue it or press charges for fear of the shame and perhaps hurting his family.

Again, harsher punishment for domestic abuse. These are situations where it's so very "that's none of my business" and is a crime not as harshly pursued as say a buglary. And as I've said before abusive people getting out of jail only to hurt their partner further, even murder them. This is a huge problem, and I don't condone abuse on either side but as I said, it is primarily directed towards women.

"Intimate partner violence is primarily a crime against women. In 2001, women accounted for 85 percent of the victims of intimate partner violence (588,490 total) and men accounted for approximately 15 percent of the victims (103,220 total)." (edit to add I'm sure this includes gay couples as well, which accounts for much of the violoence against men)

"Women are much more likely than men to be killed by an intimate partner. In 2000, intimate partner homicides accounted for 33.5 percent of the murders of women and less than four percent of the murders of men"

Domestic Abuse Source

Never said the lack of women elected was men's fault. However they do control the power, and there is a lot of the buddy system going on with candidates supporting eachother. This could be used for or against whomever they choose. Of course women need to run, but you also have to look at how much more difficult it is for a woman to get in a position to have the clout to run. I think women have a lot more hoops to jump through to gain respect as leaders.

It's not that women don't care when it happens to men. The problem is, as was evident here at some points in the thread, that often times men attempt to discredit the women's movement by displaying their own hardships. I'm not saying this is always the case, but a lot of times it is. The idea is focus on women, just like the civil rights movement focuses on the advancement of minorities. This idea doesn't sit well with some people. But the point that these people miss is that women have minority status even though we are over half the population. This is a problem plain and simple and it's almost an insult when men's problems keep getting thrown back like we don't know they exist. They do, the points are valid, that is just not the focus of feminism.

Message edited by author 2007-05-18 00:23:46.

05/18/2007 12:21:18 AM · #232

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
and the only one we could think of that was directed specifically at men without fitting into the other categories.

"d*ck"

this may show what narrow perception, or how misinformed you are :(
or are you consciously being ignorant about the truth?
twisting the truth in favour of an argument could only get you as far as the next post in DPC ;)

and oh, by the way, i think it might be masculinist to address really important things like our planet earth, mother nature and so forth as females! lol

As I said, that's all we could think of, not that is was the only one. If you have more please by all means fill the list. Please don't call me ignorant. And I'm not twisting. Like I said, that is what the class could think of, and there were men in the class too. Again I encourage you to prove your point.

at first i really wanted to reply "you're kidding me, right?" but then i realized that, maybe your class needs more participants.

Again, please give examples. We were all pitching in and thinking best we could, I assure you it was a very active class.

yanko

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

05/18/2007 12:22:35 AM · #233

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by yanko:
... When the old people die they tend to take their worst ideals with them while those entering the world get saturated with the best ideals humanity has come up with at that point and runs with it. :P

...it might be that I am fast approaching the day when I too will be entering the "Old People" group, and it may be that I am romanticizing days gone by, but from this man's perspective the world is a much harsher place to live in today than it was even 40 years ago.

It could perhaps be argued that some of the best ideals are dying off along with the "Old People" we allude to.

Ray

I was referring more to socially accepted inequalities that every era in history (including today) has held and that over time its dwindles as the old guardians of said inequalities leave this earth. It is true that some good things are lost with it but I like to think we gain more than we lose.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/18/2007 12:44:06 AM · #234

Since it has been pointed out that my foul language arguement is weak... here is more what I was trying to get at (by illustrating it in an attention grabbing way). Sexist language is a problem. Just as was discussed here, language can alter your perception of things. Connotation is a big thing. Say the word "selective" as opposed to "descriminatory". People get all finiky when feminists want to address language, but it is all tied in.

An example on one of these pages was that for a while there was not a term for "sexual harassement" and until there was, it was difficult to talk about it and try and get laws against it.

This was also my point with the Mr vs. Mrs./ Miss. Why have the age/marriage designation for women and not men? Now there is Ms. that is supposed to be the equivalent to Mr. but do to tradition and general unawareness, some still use Miss or Mrs.

Interesting Article on Language

Neutral Language Guide

Spork99

OM System OM-1

05/18/2007 12:49:50 AM · #235

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Now there is Ms. that is supposed to be the equivalent to Mr. but do to tradition and general unawareness, some still use Miss or Mrs.

Many women prefer Miss or Mrs. for their own reasons, not associated with any feminist agenda.

I usually address women however they wish.

LoudDog

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

05/18/2007 12:49:53 AM · #236

Rape is a societal problem??? It's sick men that need to go to jail. I don't think it has anything to do with womens rights? It just sucks all around. And sadly, rape victims do have to be questined thanks to women like in the Duke case.

I'd be all for harsher punishments for domestic abuse as long as it did not apply just to men. Yes, most arrests for domestic violence is men, and when men hit they do more damage. But, do you think women never hit men? Do you think a lot of men run to the police when their wife hits them? I know three men that divorced their wives because the wife was violent. One beat the guy while he sleeped, the other two got drunk and abusive. Two of the men were kicked out of their house by the police at one point when THEY called the police because their wife was out of control and hitting them! Both times, the cops basically said "it'll just be easier if you leave..."

Yeah, sometimes it sucks to be a woman, but sometimes it sucks to be a man too.

05/18/2007 01:05:22 AM · #237

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
Now there is Ms. that is supposed to be the equivalent to Mr. but do to tradition and general unawareness, some still use Miss or Mrs.

Many women prefer Miss or Mrs. for their own reasons, not associated with any feminist agenda.

I usually address women however they wish.

The reason is usually tradition. They are proud to be a Mrs. I don't personally have a problem with this, I agree with you I'll call a woman whatever she chooses,

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

05/18/2007 01:15:20 AM · #238

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Yes but how do they become "sick". It is a societal problem because of the society that sustains these types of people

"The United States has the worldâ��s highest rape rate of all countries that publish such data- 13 times higher than England and more than 20 times higher than Japan (12)"

With stats like that it's hard to say it's simply an idividual matter. Just as crime in the US is higher and is a societal problem.

Source

I never said women don't. I know they do. And I know it is probably difficult for a man to go to the police. I have a friend that hits her boyfriend. She is not even 5 foot and he is 6'2'' and she has made him cry. I know women can do damage... and try seeing him call the cops.

Then again a lot of cops have that uncarrying attitude either way, not just towards men. I haven't had fun dealings with cops myself. Any domestic dispute they seem basically fed up with and don't want to bother with. Example: My brother's 15 year old friend was hit by his dad and called the cops. The cops got there and basically told the 15 year old to get back inside with his abusive dad and weren't gunna do anything. He resisted which I believed turned physical as they attempted to force him back inside. HE got sent to Juvie for the resisting arrest and it was ruled the father had the right to deal with him physically because the kid was trained in KARATE! I kid you not!! This is how rediculous our legal system is and the people that are in it.

theSaj

Canon EOS-20D

05/18/2007 01:17:26 AM · #239

"d*ck", "pr*ck", "c*ck", "scumbag", "b*stard" (relation to father NOT mother), "j*rk", "j*rk off", "f*g" (may be a homosexual reference but regardless is toward males).

Maybe you're just not diligent enough in your research....

****

"As for rape."

I've always believed in draconian law. I believe castration should be part of the punishment of rape.
That said, I do not think two people getting drunk and making out constitutes rape. (If physical force or threat is used against one's will in any situation - I believe that to be rape.)

One nice aspect of draconian law for rape. It eliminates repeat offenders.

(And rape is not just a male-on-female issue. Though it is primarily such. They just had an incident this past year at my wife's college of a female rapist that was preying on male students. All rape is wrong. All rapists should be punished and have their means to repeat the offense eliminated whether it be castration, death, life imprisonment or some other affective means. I do believe society is far too lax on rapists and pedophiles.)

- Saj

Message edited by author 2007-05-18 01:17:59.

05/18/2007 01:25:50 AM · #240

Originally posted by theSaj:

bastard: son of an unwed mother. This is an attack on the mother.

Homosexuality should not be an insult, it is considered as such because being with another man is like taking on the "woman" role. Hence references to homosexuality are still comparisons to women and saying that such comparisons are a bad thing.

crayon

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

05/18/2007 01:48:56 AM · #241

Originally posted by escapetooz:

bastard: son of an unwed mother. This is an attack on the mother.

i really have the impression that you're trying too hard to relate things to your cause. i mean, which man isn't a woman's son? "bastard" could well have been targeted to the absent father as well. your choice of perspective seems questionable at this point. i'm not trying to belittle you, but it's honestly how i felt up to this point.

05/18/2007 01:52:47 AM · #242

Originally posted by crayon:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
bastard: son of an unwed mother. This is an attack on the mother.

i really have the impression that you're trying too hard to relate things to your cause. i mean, which man isn't a woman's son? "bastard" could well have been targeted to the absent father as well. your choice of perspective seems questionable at this point. i'm not trying to belittle you, but it's honestly how i felt up to this point.

I already agreed I had a weak argument and was just using it to illustrate the language problem and provided sources a few posts up.

edit to add however the mother is the one that deals with the shame in thos situations. No one even has to know who the father is and he may not even know he's a father. There is a stigma on the unwed mother in our society, and yes there is one on "deadbeat dads" as well but that is something much easier to hide than a baby bump or an actual child.

Message edited by author 2007-05-18 01:54:20.

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

05/18/2007 05:52:38 AM · #243

Originally posted by crayon:

lets try this again. monica, open your mind for JUST a little bit, and listen. this is a suggestion to get that you wanted.

i agree with yanko that, unless there is a win-win situation, nothing will happen. cruel fact or not, money runs the world today. and if large, rich and powerful people cant justify spending more money on giving women the rights they deserved, then they just wouldn't. i suggest that, rather than keep asking for more, you should propose why instead. that might actually work. i'm serious.

This is the point I was trying to make earlier. As I understand it, crayon does not accept the premise that equality is desireable - that is quite a different argument to how equality should be achieved.

The point is that we live in a society that recognises the equality of all people in certain important aspects â�� that is, people without reference to their gender, race or origin. In places like the US or the UK, equality is a concept established in the constitution of the state. IMO, *If* you think that a group of people do not deserve equal treatment, then in a debate like this it is up to you to demonstrate why the constitution is wrong and they should be treated unequally.

If you accept that women have a right to equal treatment, then the debate is not whether we should aim for equality, but how.

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

05/18/2007 06:45:05 AM · #244

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Not condescending, just curious what changes you would like to see for the sexes to be equal, in your opinion. Is it just pay and maternity leave?

I think that this raises an important question â�� one where I think that escapetooz goes further than I would.

There are various ways in which equality can be encouraged or required. It can be done by law (eg equality in the workplace), by secondary authorities (eg guidelines on the portrayal of people in the media), or by shifts in society (eg changes in socially acceptable attitudes).

I fully support the strong introduction of equality in the workplace, equality in access to services, equality of rights and treatment by the state. I fully support these being enforced by law.

However, when it comes to social attitudes, I think that the only way to achieve change is through a gradual shift in perception. This cannot be legislated for. Social attitudes may be influenced by changes in the law (people with expectations of equality in the workplace will hopefully carry them home), but predominantly the method of delivery should be education (including debates like this).

So â�� what swear words people use, or what rap singers sing about, are issues that do impact on equality, but outside the workplace I donâ��t think that they can or should be legislated for (any more than how people generally talk and deal with the opposite sex on a day to day basis). For a change to happen, it will have to be a gradual shift in social expectations.

The rape example is a bad one â�� to the extent that it happens, it is already prohibited by the law and prosecuted. The law might need tweaking to balance the rights of the victim v the rights of the accused, but this is a different debate. The fact that in some countries it happens more than others is an issue for change in social attitude, and again not something that should (or perhaps could) be legislated for.

What rights people should have in work (eg maternity rights, equal opportunities) depends on a balance between the economic cost and the benefit to society. In the US, very little weight appears to be given to the benefit to society â�� personally, I would have a problem with that. Employers have costs â�� and this cost is one further cost that I think it reasonable to impose on them to some degree. This is reflected in the interesting league table â�� it is amazing that the US comes out bottom of the league in this respect (indeed â�� it is effectively a hidden â��taxâ�� on women that they should have such limited maternity rights).

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

05/18/2007 06:52:47 AM · #245

PS - there are a number of ways in which movement towards equality goes unquestioned even by the most cynical. For example, I don't see anyone arguing that women should not be allowed to vote - though a century ago this was a highly contentious debate.

05/18/2007 10:11:04 AM · #246

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by LoudDog:
Not condescending, just curious what changes you would like to see for the sexes to be equal, in your opinion. Is it just pay and maternity leave?

I think that this raises an important question â�� one where I think that escapetooz goes further than I would.

There are various ways in which equality can be encouraged or required. It can be done by law (eg equality in the workplace), by secondary authorities (eg guidelines on the portrayal of people in the media), or by shifts in society (eg changes in socially acceptable attitudes).

I fully support the strong introduction of equality in the workplace, equality in access to services, equality of rights and treatment by the state. I fully support these being enforced by law.

However, when it comes to social attitudes, I think that the only way to achieve change is through a gradual shift in perception. This cannot be legislated for. Social attitudes may be influenced by changes in the law (people with expectations of equality in the workplace will hopefully carry them home), but predominantly the method of delivery should be education (including debates like this).

So â�� what swear words people use, or what rap singers sing about, are issues that do impact on equality, but outside the workplace I donâ��t think that they can or should be legislated for (any more than how people generally talk and deal with the opposite sex on a day to day basis). For a change to happen, it will have to be a gradual shift in social expectations.

The rape example is a bad one â�� to the extent that it happens, it is already prohibited by the law and prosecuted. The law might need tweaking to balance the rights of the victim v the rights of the accused, but this is a different debate. The fact that in some countries it happens more than others is an issue for change in social attitude, and again not something that should (or perhaps could) be legislated for.

What rights people should have in work (eg maternity rights, equal opportunities) depends on a balance between the economic cost and the benefit to society. In the US, very little weight appears to be given to the benefit to society â�� personally, I would have a problem with that. Employers have costs â�� and this cost is one further cost that I think it reasonable to impose on them to some degree. This is reflected in the interesting league table â�� it is amazing that the US comes out bottom of the league in this respect (indeed â�� it is effectively a hidden â��taxâ�� on women that they should have such limited maternity rights).

I agree with you. But then again my statements never said otherwise. I completely understand social attitudes cannot be legislated, that was never a suggestion and would account for a lot of liberties being taken away (such as freedom of speech). Part of feminism IS the social aspect and not just he legal. That is why feminism is a lot about consciousness raising. If you make yourself and those around you aware of the social aspects and how to make things better in your cirle, the idea is that it will spread, or at the very least make your immediate surroundings better.

Take the language guide for example. If a couple people took a look at that and started to think about language on male/female terms and noticed some of the sexist language or the language that paints men as the "neutral" and females as the "other" they could start to be a little more sensitive to this. And that is really all I'm asking... not for everyone to go out on the picket lines, but to be more aware in your life of how you act and carry on sexism, even innocently and unknowingly.

05/18/2007 10:22:21 AM · #247

Originally posted by Matthew:

Women really didn't get the vote that long ago, and got it much later than even the black male. Biology was used as one of the debates agaist the women's vote, that women just weren't as smart and could not handle the descision making. Sounds rediculous now but arguments similar to this are made all of the time on various subjects, such as why women aren't as active in the maths and sciences as males.

Article on Harvard President's Speech and the male vs. female brain

It is interesting that towards the end, for those that don't read it, they say that in general, the math and sciences part of the girls brain are behind the boy's while the language parts in boys are behind the girls.

This is the problem: I don't doubt that there might be difference however I don't think that is why women aren't in sciences. The percent of men in language arts and literature is not such a small minority like the women "hard sciences". Also, there certainly isn't as much focus on the parts of the male brain that are behind and the affect it has on men. No one is out there spouting that men "just aren't good" at languages and writing. Basically, behind portions of the brain or not, I think men and women are equally capable in all academic careers and it is societal problems that keep the inequality in the paths that people choose. As one quote in the article says, girls are taught early on that they "just aren't good" at math and science.

edite for clarity

Message edited by author 2007-05-18 10:32:30.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

05/21/2007 12:32:41 AM · #248

Hm... gone for the weekend and this thing dies! lol.

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

05/21/2007 12:55:48 AM · #249

Striving for some sort of gender-neutral world benefits no one. All people should have an equal chance at pursuing the same goals, however equal if not greater emphasis should be placed on reinforcing the idea that it is not only acceptable, but in fact healthy and desirable to embrace the traits of one's gender that differentiate it from the other. In my experience, many parts (or at least the more vocal parts) of the so-called feminist movement are championing a lifestyle of competition for competition's sake (if he can do it, so can I) rather than truly seeking a balanced and happy way of life.

Personally, I don't care how many women are in the maths and sciences any more than I care how many men are in the maths and sciences. So long as, men or women, the people who are the best at those two pursuits are active in those fields then everyone benefits.

Finally, getting hung up on the political correctness of language, especially the political correctness of vulgarities, is lunacy... Words convey intent - if you got the message, the words did their job. If you are so easily offended that you don't get the message because you get hung up on etymology then what good is it to talk to you anyway.