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04/17/2007 01:49:26 PM · #76 |
alan...once again, you and I think alike...
my additional thoughts
Unfortunately the media was helping fuel that 'sue' mentality last night...They sent emails, they posted to the website, they phoned the dorms...short of standing at the doorways stopping people....Fox still found many kids to go on camera and say "they didn't tell me", "I did't know about anything til noon"....well if they didn't know anything til noon, then they weren't in danger, eh? but I'm sure they were put in harms way, at least that is what the lawsuit will say. |
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04/17/2007 01:52:33 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Here are some of my random thoughts about this incident. First and foremost, my heart goes out to everyone involved. I can remember when I was in college in a small town in 1986, and there was a stabbing death of a student a few blocks off campus. This is all we talked about for months. I can just imagine the impact something like this must be having.
I can't help but wonder how many millions of dollars will be needlessly spent on security as a result of this incident. I know it's hard to accept, but no real amount of money spent on security would have stopped this from happening. It may have changed the venue from the classroom to the parking lot, for example, but this guy was going to go berzerk and he was going to kill people somewhere.
Nowadays, especially after 9/11, we've gone nuts as a society in an effort to beef up security as a feel-good effort. It's ridiculous. My daughter goes to a school that was just built in 2004 just down the road from us. They have these big heavy doors that are always locked, and you have to be "buzzed" into the building.
Meanwhile, I've seen kids holding the doors open at other parts of the building, and I guarantee that even teachers would likely just let someone in if the person wasn't obviously standing there with a machete or something. If I really wanted to get in there, it would take me probably less than 15 minutes to get in, because the "feel good security" is not going to make up for common sense errors that will be made elsewhere.
Someone who wants to kill or harm people can do so in so many ways that it's simply impossible to stop. Here in Pittsburgh, we've had recent instances where idiots have been throwing rocks at vehicles on a heavily traveled road. What security could stop that activity along every highway?
What security could have gone into place to thwart the Washington DC snipers a few years ago?
But I'm sure we'll be spending millions or billions of dollars now so we can all feel good about security in colleges.
My other observation is how many lawsuits are going to be filed (and won) against the school because they didn't do enough to prevent the second series of shootings after the first one. No, people won't even consider that we should be placing all of the blame on Cho Seung-Hui... the guy is dead! We have to sue somebody! So they'll sue the school, the manufacturers of the guns, the designer of the doors Seung-Hui was able to push open, and the manufacturer of the desk because they weren't strong enough to hold the door shut. |
I agree. People were wearing bullet proof vests and were running out of gas because they were afraid to go to the gas station during the DC sniper shootings. The odds of actually getting shot by them was astronomical - you'd have a better chance of being killed by a blood clot or in a car accident (yet people still don't get up from their desks often enough or put down their cell phones when driving). This was a tragedy yes, but is it really necessary to take away even more of our freedoms for a freak incident that claimed the lives of a single bus load of people? Will this really happen less often by making all of our lives just a little more difficult? |
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04/17/2007 02:08:33 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
Are you saying we should not have any gun laws so we can all carry guns like in teh wild west? If someone had a gun this would have ended early? Is that really your stance? |
Very surprising position from a resident of a state that doen't even require a permit to carry concealed. Vermont is the only state in the nation that allows each of its citizens to be publicly armed without a permit/authorization other than the state constitution.
Regarding other commentary here - it is true that from a distance of 21' an assailant armed with a knife has the advantage over a victim with a holsterd pistol/revolver. This is documented and proven, via the "Tueller Drill" taught at many law enforcement training acadmies and at Massad Ayoob's LFI.
Yes, it is quite likely that had any of the 32 victims been armed, then this would have ended sooner than it did. That in itself does not address the fact that it is illegal to possess firearms on or within school zones. The handguns used were a .22 (Walther P22) and a 9mm (Glock 19). Neither are a particularly effective offensive/defensive weapon - although the Glock does have a magazine capacity of 15 rounds. This fact suggests to me that the victims were stationary and likely executed - as opposed to moving, evading, and escaping. The ER Doctor reported that not all wounds were life threatening - suggesting that some intended victims were evading. Most of the victims were shot multiple times - according to the ER Doctor - as quoted in a CNN piece.
This tragedy is compounded by the condition 1 (white) awareness levels of the victims and the community. Totally unacceptable in this age of terrorism.
I pray for everyone affected by this senseless act.
Message edited by author 2007-04-17 14:32:06.
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04/17/2007 02:08:48 PM · #79 |
You're missing the point...even if guns were outlawed, there are enough guns out on the streets to keep them around for hundreds upon hundreds of years to come in the hands of the criminals.
And yes, my stand is that a trained individual carrying a firearm as a means of protection could have saved a VERY LARGE number of people's lives.
And no, things like this do not happen every day...but things like this do happen. The laws state, currently, that you are not allowed to carry guns onto a school zone...but the criminals obviously do not listen to the laws. Stricter gun control policies are certainly not the answer. I'm not here to find the answer...I'm not sure there is an answer. There will always be a means to carry out these kinds of incidents and obviously the criminals who do these things do not care about what the laws are or how they are or are not enforced.
Take away our guns and these shootings will start to happen in shopping malls and restaurants just like they're occurring in our gun-free school zones.
If you are a person that wants guns taken out of the hands of law-abiding citizens, then you have your right to believe that. Maybe some day you or a loved one will be in a situation that could possibly cost you your life and someone with a CCW permit saves your life and your feelings will change.
Like I said...we do not have a gun problem, we have a people problem.
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04/17/2007 02:46:43 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Take away our guns and these shootings will start to happen in shopping malls and restaurants just like they're occurring in our gun-free school zones.
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Care to back this up? I'll give you the last six months to pull up an article where someone started shooting in a mall or wherever and was shot by a citizen packin' heat.
You've got 15 minute....Go!
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04/17/2007 02:47:27 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by deapee:
You're missing the point...even if guns were outlawed, there are enough guns out on the streets to keep them around for hundreds upon hundreds of years to come in the hands of the criminals. |
Luckily the guns would have stopped working by that time...
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04/17/2007 02:52:42 PM · #82 |
I'm not siding with deapee here, but here's the example that immediately came to mind. Of course, the citizen who took him down was an off-duty cop, but there it is, a citizen who took down a shooter in a mall with his own weapon.
Utah mall shooting
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04/17/2007 02:56:51 PM · #83 |
| the issue isn't about guns. Guns maybe made it so MORE people died than would have through another means, but a bomb would have killed more, and a knife less. The issue here is about WHY people are so angry and alone and disenfranchised that they can justify to themselves these actions of taking lives of innocent strangers. How did society alienate someone so much that they figured this was the only thing they could do? That's the issue. Not guns, or gun laws. What a red herring. |
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04/17/2007 02:59:35 PM · #84 |
Forget the gun and the knife, this was an Engineering class. If the guy knew a little chemestry he could have gone the chemestry lab and he would have taken out the whole class with a test tube. Or he could have used explosives, or he could have driven his car into a group of people...
My $.02... if you have someone hell bent on killing a lot of people, gun control is not going to stop them.
Does anyone think that if this guy could not get his hands on a gun he would have just gone on with life and not done this? Can't get a gun, might as well be happy now... |
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04/17/2007 03:04:58 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by frisca:
the issue isn't about guns. Guns maybe made it so MORE people died than would have through another means, but a bomb would have killed more, and a knife less. The issue here is about WHY people are so angry and alone and disenfranchised that they can justify to themselves these actions of taking lives of innocent strangers. How did society alienate someone so much that they figured this was the only thing they could do? That's the issue. Not guns, or gun laws. What a red herring. |
And that's something I don't think we can ever really understand - because we are sane. People always want to know "why" but without being insane I don't think there is anyway for us to truly relate. If we could truly relate to the gunman and know why I don't think we'd be here posting on a forum, we'd be out killing people. It amazes me that the wiring in someone can go so wrong that they can believe that killing dozens of people is the right thing to do. |
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04/17/2007 03:18:57 PM · #86 |
I'm opting for the "girlfriend" theory. Definately a "passion" crime.
btw, the serial numbers were filed off both handguns used.
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04/17/2007 03:19:21 PM · #87 |
See this is the crux of the biscuit. The guy killed himself leaving no possibility of reciprocity. The only thing left to blame is the inanimate object he used. I understand that feeling but it in no way helps the grieving process or gives us insight on the reasons behind the rampage.
Very, Very Sad indeed.
Message edited by author 2007-04-17 15:22:32. |
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04/17/2007 03:22:39 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by Flash:
I'm opting for the "girlfriend" theory. Definately a "passion" crime.
btw, the serial numbers were filed off both handguns used. |
Alot of times they can still recover the serial numbers due to impression deeper within the metal that arent very visible. but not always. They recovered the serial number off the truck that exploded in 93 in the WTC. Then again it was still on there when it exploded.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by deapee:
You're missing the point...even if guns were outlawed, there are enough guns out on the streets to keep them around for hundreds upon hundreds of years to come in the hands of the criminals. |
Luckily the guns would have stopped working by that time... |
Actually when properly kept and stored guns dont die, especially when not being used.
But ammunition is another thing hard to come by when they stop selling it publicly. But some people reload their own rounds and u can reload a round 6 or 7 times.
Message edited by author 2007-04-17 15:24:08. |
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04/17/2007 04:05:32 PM · #89 |
probably a little off topic, but with my recent name change I have been in and out of the local gov't office. (SS office/DMV/Court house, etc)...Bob and I each carry a pocket knife. Each metal detector Bob had to empty his pockets, hand over his knife, etc... I kept forgettin that my knife was in my purse...NOT ONCE was it taken from me.
They questioned a funky little Caribiner shaped pen that I had clipped inside the purse but never pulled the knife...
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04/17/2007 04:10:47 PM · #90 |
Just to create another path of diversion... I heard on the news that he might have been taking meds for depression. Wasn't there a flurry of news stories recently about anit-depression drugs causing abnormal behaviour? Was it Paxil?
I will be curious to see if this becomes a route that the news outlets choose to follow once they find that cannot rile the student body into having the VT President thrown out of office.
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04/17/2007 04:15:10 PM · #91 |
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04/17/2007 04:24:03 PM · #92 |
Here is the website of one of the instructors - Jamie Bishop. He has some nice photographs posted here
Jamie Bishop Gallery
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04/17/2007 04:33:46 PM · #93 |
Here in Az.
Apr. 17, 2007 01:10 PM
Students and faculty are being evacuated from Estrella Mountain Community College in Avondale as a result of a shooting threat, police officials said.
All classes for Tuesday have been canceled, per a voice recording at the school's main number.
Apr. 17, 2007 12:50 PM
Corona Del Sol High School officials are increasing school security for the rest of the week in light of recent threats.
Tempe police are investigating multiple threats of violence directed at Corona del Sol high school, targeting this Friday as a possible date. The most recent threat was made Monday.
Police said a message was discovered Monday on a bathroom stall warning students about upcoming violence on Friday. School officials sent a letter home to parents about the incident Monday.
Columbines 8th anniversary is this Friday.
Gotta wonder if these tragedies will ever end ? |
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04/17/2007 04:41:19 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by colorcarnival:
Just to create another path of diversion... I heard on the news that he might have been taking meds for depression. Wasn't there a flurry of news stories recently about anit-depression drugs causing abnormal behaviour? Was it Paxil?
I will be curious to see if this becomes a route that the news outlets choose to follow once they find that cannot rile the student body into having the VT President thrown out of office. |
Heck they've got the uber-criminal who sold him the gun: Gun and Drug Info
This guy will be roasted over the coals just like he committed the crime. The victims families will be able to sue the university and the drug manufacturer. Maybe even the gun manufacturer.
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04/17/2007 04:58:31 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by fir3bird:
Maybe even the gun manufacturer. |
Didn't the gun lobby take care of this in 2005? I don't remember if the bill which prevented people from suing gun manufacturers for negligence passed or not...
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04/17/2007 06:35:01 PM · #96 |
I see an irony in the proposition that knives are more deadly than guns yet if more people had guns, the malls of the US would be safer. Surely (on that reasoning) real safety would come only if more people had knives? Guns should be outlawed because they give a false sense of security, when knives are the real danger and source of security.
Perhaps the reality is that guns represent superior killing force and bring straightforward deadly force into the hands of ordinary people with little or no training or practice. They are not objectionable because they kill, but because they can be so easily used to kill or seriously injure.
I would continue to advocate stringent controls on guns and compulsory training - eliminate the ease with which guns may be obtained and add the discipline of training and responsibility.
A further thought is that, while people say that it would be easy to obtain an illegal weapon, would it really be easy in all respects to do so? I don't doubt that people could locate people who could provide them relatively easily, but I would argue that there are a huge number of mental and social restrictions that would prevent most people most of the time (the vast vast majority) from making contact and successfully effecting the arrangements to obtain such a weapon. They are not insurmountable barriers (what are?), but they should not be underestimated.
A final thought is that restrictions on gun culture are not necessarily intended for the short term: they represent the long term solution to a problem. Restricting access to guns now will limit the number of guns available in decades to come.
Message edited by author 2007-04-17 18:36:33.
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04/17/2007 06:54:25 PM · #97 |
Can't the argument be made that if guns were restricted and only criminals had them that more criminals would be killed by guns (due to such things as gang violence) than law abiding citizens (due to domestic violence or accident) and eventually we would have no more crime?
Long live gun control!
Personally I think the gun debate is so fraught with dogmatic, unreasonable thinking that the only avenue I have left is to make fun of everybody.
(That being said, I'd be perfectly happy to take my chances if handguns were outlawed.)
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04/17/2007 07:00:21 PM · #98 |
i think that every American should own a gun
but
i also think that bullets should be illegal
let people club each other to death |
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04/17/2007 07:02:39 PM · #99 |
interesting idea - I like it! (now waiting for gun advocates to jump all over this one)
Originally posted by ralph:
i think that every American should own a gun
but
i also think that bullets should be illegal
let people club each other to death |
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04/17/2007 07:30:18 PM · #100 |
| Whats so sad, is that no matter what kind of control you try and put on guns it can and will never be fully controlled. There is too much on the streets. Its like drugs, they are illegal, yet you can go pretty much anywhere and find people that sell em. Its like someone said earlier, if some freak is hell bent to kill people and then take their own lives, you can't do anything to stop them. |
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