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03/25/2007 05:32:57 PM · #26 |
| If religion causes intolerance - some of you guys must be really, really, religious :- ) |
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03/25/2007 05:34:35 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I can understand why people leave over things like this. It is as a few in this thread have stated - Christians are fair game for ridicule, but all other groups are off limits. Attacks on people's faith are personal attacks. Just as attacks on a particular race or sexual orientation are not tolerated, I do not see why Christianity is an exception. I've seen a lot of it over the few years I have been here and I try to ignore it because I am not here to engage in that topic, but much of it is very hard to ignore.
I've seen rational debates and discussions on religion also, so it hasn't all been vitriolic, but when it is, it sure seems to get past the forum police.
Really makes me sick. |
While I agree with you, I feel the same way about some of the comments people have been making about body piercing. Both are a choice. While one would argue (with some credence) that faith is more important many don't feel that way. Your feeling about how many find it ok to make fun of Christians is how I feel about people thinking it is ok to make fun of people that decide to look different. We all make choices in life and deserve to be treated with respect. I personally don't believe in Christ but I don't chastise those that do about their choice. However I have been personally chastised many many times for daring to say I believe in G-D but not in Jesus. |
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03/25/2007 06:17:42 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Blue Moon:
Originally posted by TJinGuy:
Here is my favorite part of Christianity. When all the Christians are sitting in church on Sundays, all the great photographing sites are much less crowded. |
Ah yes, it's a wonderful thing. However, the photographer must be careful not to be run over by all of the crazy Christian drivers trying to get to church on time.
hee |
I can no longer bite my tongue, it leaves such a bad taste in my mouth.
Instead of "Christian" let's substitute the word Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Latino, Korean, gay, etc., etc.
Would you have felt as comfortable making those statements? I should hope not...or is it all in "good fun"? I am far from PC but I do get tried of Christians being one of the last great punching bags of the world. People complain of Christians being so hateful, perhaps you have never met the right ones? There are many who say they are Christian but are not actually true Christians.
My father is one of the kindest, good, most honest and humble guys anyone could every meet...he is a good Christian, he is strong and sure in his faith. When someone says hateful/mocking things about Christianity, they are saying mocking /hateful things about my Father, my family, my friends...just how am I not supposed to take this personally?
...and no, I'm not a right wing zealot...or a left wing zealot for that matter...
The best thing anyone could do, not matter what religion, ethnicity, income level or social standing is to simply be kind and treat others as you yourself would like to be treated...simple? Yes?
EDIT to clarify the "punching bag" bit...in "punching bag" I mean a punching bag that is still perfectly fine to use and beat on. I also did not say it was the ONLY religion/ethnicity left to ridicule with barely a person batting an eye...read carefully...read ALL of what I have said above. You simply cannot tell me this thread would still be going if some of the things said here about Christians/Christianity were instead said about other religions/ethnicities/sexual preferences. Perhaps, but I doubt it.
Message edited by author 2007-03-25 20:25:56. |
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03/25/2007 06:18:56 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Mark:
The author probably doesn't even realize that religions such as Judaism and Islam share texts with Christianity. In neither of those religions do figures claim to be God |
Most of the new religions ripped large parts of their texts, symbols and rituals from even older religions/historic originally non-religious text. Picking out of the pool what suited them or their audience best.
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03/25/2007 06:20:05 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by formerlee:
You haven't taken this in context with the site referred to: It is very easy to make a comment based on the thread, but the thread refers to this GOD FAQ, all the answers were taken from the Bible with quotes. I am not hitting on Christians, everyone is allowed to believe in what they want. I just drew their attention to what they were quoting. Christian use the Bible as a reference, all I have done is suggest they re-read the Bible. I was raised a Christian, so don't throw that garbage at me about non-believers. But people need to read what they quote, before quoting it.
This is a very personal subject, so those who don't think they can turn the other cheek, should not participate. Nova took this as a personal attack on his beliefs. None attacked his beliefs, had they done so, I would have been the first to defend him. But he has chosen the martyr route. |
Nova didn't quote anything nor did he/she link to anything. Nova came in here and said how s/he felt and then was accused of not turning the other cheek.
Why don't you just enlighten me as to what turning the other cheek is? What I take from your words it is that if someone has any rebuttal to someone questioning their beliefs then they are not turning the other cheek. Am I reading that correctly?
Also, what are you - a believer or non believer? If you're a believer then you need to try turning the other cheek. If you're a non believer then you are being hypocritical by using the bible to preach to Christians. See, it's not garbage after all is it?
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03/25/2007 06:31:02 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by Mark:
The author probably doesn't even realize that religions such as Judaism and Islam share texts with Christianity. In neither of those religions do figures claim to be God |
Most of the new religions ripped large parts of their texts, symbols and rituals from even older religions/historic originally non-religious text. Picking out of the pool what suited them or their audience best. |
I understand that. Christianity is built off of Judaism, sharing the first five books, old testament, Torah, whatever you wish to call it, and then Islam is built off of the documents of both Christianity and Judaism. Islam respects Jesus as a prophet in the same way that Christianity respects Moses as a prophet. Of course all of the religions incorporate pre-existing symbols and rituals. This is my understanding, and please correct me if I am incorrect.
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03/25/2007 06:34:33 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by RKT:
Originally posted by Blue Moon:
Originally posted by TJinGuy:
Here is my favorite part of Christianity. When all the Christians are sitting in church on Sundays, all the great photographing sites are much less crowded. |
Ah yes, it's a wonderful thing. However, the photographer must be careful not to be run over by all of the crazy Christian drivers trying to get to church on time.
hee |
The best thing anyone could do, not matter what religion, ethnicity, income level or social standing is to simply be kind and treat others as you yourself would like to be treated...simple? Yes? |
I fully agree. The statements that you quoted were not PC, and inappropriate. The thing that people often fail to recognize about jokes is that even though they are not necessarily sincere, they still create an atmosphere that over time can, if unchecked, lead to real hatred.
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03/25/2007 06:45:53 PM · #33 |
| Everyone should remain aware that there is a fine line between challenging someone's faith on an intellectual level and ridiculing it. Tone and wording choices factor heavily into distinguishing between the two. |
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03/25/2007 06:51:16 PM · #34 |
this thread is starting to give me a headache. ugh.
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03/25/2007 07:04:16 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by Blue Moon:
this thread is starting to give me a headache. ugh. |
Believe it or not, using your head will sometimes make it hurt.
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03/25/2007 07:06:25 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Attacks on people's faith are personal attacks. |
I don't think anybody was attacking faith in general... just that particular FAQ as ignorant and hateful. So unless you're worshipping an online FAQ, there really shouldn't be a problem here. :-/ |
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03/25/2007 07:09:54 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by RKT:
Originally posted by Blue Moon:
Originally posted by TJinGuy:
Here is my favorite part of Christianity. When all the Christians are sitting in church on Sundays, all the great photographing sites are much less crowded. |
Ah yes, it's a wonderful thing. However, the photographer must be careful not to be run over by all of the crazy Christian drivers trying to get to church on time.
hee |
I can no longer bite my tongue, it leaves such a bad taste in my mouth.
Instead of "Christian" let's substitute the word Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Latino, Korean, gay, etc., etc.
Would you have felt as comfortable making those statements? I should hope not...or is it all in "good fun"? I am far from PC but I do get tried of Christians being one of the last great punching bags of the world. People complain of Christians being so hateful, perhaps you have never met the right ones? There are many who say they are Christian but are not actually true Christians.
My father is one of the kindest, good, most honest and humble guys anyone could every meet...he is a good Christian, he is strong and sure in his faith. When someone says hateful/mocking things about Christianity, they are saying mocking /hateful things about my Father, my family, my friends...just how am I not supposed to take this personally?
...and no, I'm not a right wing zealot...or a left wing zealot for that matter...
The best thing anyone could do, not matter what religion, ethnicity, income level or social standing is to simply be kind and treat others as you yourself would like to be treated...simple? Yes? |
Well Christians are the majority and the power when talking about religions (at least in the US). So not saying it's right but it's more acceptable... Just like any jokes.... for blacks, asians, hispanics it is more acceptable to make white jokes than whites to make black jokes (asian, hispanic, etc) I think the same kind of goes with Christianity.
I hope that came off the way I meant.
I think another problem is not christianity or christians... it is the fanatic, pushy, "gotta change everyone to be like me" christians that you see trying to "save" people on street corners that causes a big backlash. When they are on your tv and in your face handing you flyers and holding signs and on bullhorns saying you are a sinner... it becomes very easy to be agitated and give the rest of the Christians a bad rap. Of course this isn't all Christians... just as extreme Muslim terrorist aren't ALL Muslims... but even the Pope found it ok to talk poorly about that...
Ugh. Sorry that got off track. It's frustrating to me. In short, I don't think Christians are being picked on just because someone made a "gone to church" joke.
Edit to add... And Christians certainly are NOT the last punching bag of the world. There is still plenty of punching done to gays, blacks, hispanics, asians, illigal immigrants, muslims, jews, women... the list goes on and on.... and a LOT of that punching is DONE by extreme conservative christians.
Message edited by author 2007-03-25 19:15:35. |
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03/25/2007 07:15:48 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by krafty1:
Everyone should remain aware that there is a fine line between challenging someone's faith on an intellectual level and ridiculing it. Tone and wording choices factor heavily into distinguishing between the two. |
I have never had a Christian challenge my faith on an intellectual level. When they find out I am not a Christian, I am simply told that I am wrong and that I will go to hell for my beliefs. They refuse to hear my beliefs to the point that they almost end up putting their fingers in their ears and humming. Oh and they get really mad and hurt at the same time. Even my good Muslim friend will listen to my thoughts and beliefs, and hear me out. He still says I am wrong but at least we can have a decent two-way conversation about it.
How come Christians can ridicule my beliefs but I am not able to do the same to theirs?
Christians seem to have a really hard time with the concept of "To each their own". This is funny because their entire religion is based on choice, starting with the apple. |
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03/25/2007 07:22:09 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by TJinGuy:
Originally posted by krafty1:
Everyone should remain aware that there is a fine line between challenging someone's faith on an intellectual level and ridiculing it. Tone and wording choices factor heavily into distinguishing between the two. |
I have never had a Christian challenge my faith on an intellectual level. When they find out I am not a Christian, I am simply told that I am wrong and that I will go to hell for my beliefs. They refuse to hear my beliefs to the point that they almost end up putting their fingers in their ears and humming. Oh and they get really mad and hurt at the same time. Even my good Muslim friend will listen to my thoughts and beliefs, and hear me out. He still says I am wrong but at least we can have a decent two-way conversation about it.
How come Christians can ridicule my beliefs but I am not able to do the same to theirs?
Christians seem to have a really hard time with the concept of "To each their own". This is funny because their entire religion is based on choice, starting with the apple. |
Some friends and I actually talked to a guy handing out flyers on the street once about religion. The conversation basically went "The Bible is the truth because it is because it says it is."
When I mentioned the Koran also is the "truth" how do I know which is right? he said "that isn't... what are you muslim or something?"
He couldn't answer any of our questions and in the end said "When you reach judgement day don't say I didn't warn you. God knows. And you are going to hell"
on the other hand I had a BRILLIANT World Civilizations professor who used to vear off track and let us debate with him about religion. I LOVED that class. And he always just chuckled and gave his answer very distinctly. He has read the bible in Hebrew, Greek, English, and his native language (he is Nigerian) several times. The best thing he ever said was a theory from a philosopher... I can't remember which.
If you believe and it's not true, so what? Nothing happens? If you don't believe and someone is there, then you are the fool.
Not that I agree with it. I think that's just getting people to believe for fear but it still made more sense than a lot of explanations I have heard. |
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03/25/2007 07:28:00 PM · #40 |
I'm sorry. Did you say something Scalvert?
Originally posted by TJinGuy:
Originally posted by krafty1:
Everyone should remain aware that there is a fine line between challenging someone's faith on an intellectual level and ridiculing it. Tone and wording choices factor heavily into distinguishing between the two. |
I have never had a Christian challenge my faith on an intellectual level. When they find out I am not a Christian, I am simply told that I am wrong and that I will go to hell for my beliefs. They refuse to hear my beliefs to the point that they almost end up putting their fingers in their ears and humming. Oh and they get really mad and hurt at the same time. Even my good Muslim friend will listen to my thoughts and beliefs, and hear me out. He still says I am wrong but at least we can have a decent two-way conversation about it.
How come Christians can ridicule my beliefs but I am not able to do the same to theirs?
Christians seem to have a really hard time with the concept of "To each their own". This is funny because their entire religion is based on choice, starting with the apple. |
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03/25/2007 07:36:22 PM · #41 |
When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?"
-- Quentin Crisp |
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03/25/2007 07:43:17 PM · #42 |
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03/25/2007 07:55:38 PM · #43 |
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03/25/2007 07:59:05 PM · #44 |
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03/25/2007 07:59:14 PM · #45 |
Wow. This attack on that particular FAQ is awesome!!!
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03/25/2007 08:03:50 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by formerlee:
I read some of the FAQ and gave up. Whatever was asked there was a pat answer, nothing about the questions was ever wrong.
However, the people who thought this up haven't read their bible very well. There are two creations in Genesis, 'The Lord created man in his own likeness.' Six verses later: 'God created Adam'??
Also, the children of Adam and Eve married 'the sons of Man, and they were mighty'. |
It gets more interesting than that, actually. Not only are there two separate creations of man (the first specifically says "Man and Woman", no less), but they were done by two different people, if you consult the original Hebrew. One was Elohim (Plural, Dual-Gender, Genesis 1:26-27), and one was Yahweh (Singular, Male, Genesis 2:7). One easy way to differentiate the two in modern texts is that Elohim is always translated as "God", and Yahweh is translated as "Lord God". When Adam and Eve were thrown out of paradise they went into the land of darkness and intermingled with the other people of the world.
This is one way that some non-Christians validate their beliefs - The Gods created man and woman, but "God" created Adam and Eve (and Eden) as his own sandbox. The non-Christians are the "other people" who were created by the other gods. (Which, if you do simple reproductive math, would be most of the planet these days.)
Typos, Add passage numbers
Message edited by author 2007-03-25 20:05:59. |
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03/25/2007 09:35:13 PM · #47 |
Warning, this is long...
I am a Christian, but there are so many sub categories of Christian, that doesn't tell you much.
I have much to say on this topic and would welcome any private messages from anyone interested in intellectual debate. Iron sharpens iron.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with the assesments of many here that have found fault with the Christians they have encountered. We often fail at representing Christ. In fact, it's impossible, just as the pictures we take are only representative of the experience and can in no way fully convey everything that we witnessed or felt at the moment the shutter was released. But if the picture we take inspires someone to go to the place in the picture, they can then personalize the experience and make their own decision.
However, I do consider my self at least somewhat of an intellectual having attended a liberal arts insitution where the class load included classic philosphy, social inequalities, ethics and biotechnology, as well as theology. In addition I have actually spent time reading the Bible and have stuggled with doubt and misunderstanding many times. I find that my belief is based as much on science and statistics as the personal experiences that I believe can only be explained as personal intervention by a holy creator.
For instance the statistical likelyhood that our planet could have evolved radonomly in the time frame put forth by most scientists is something like 10^10^293 to 1. That's a pretty serious number.
In a National Geographic article in the Oct 2004 edition (a magazine not know for it's conservitive Christian support) an article on tracking down the ancestors of the ancient phonecians used gene mapping of males to try and find where the specific gene branch split from earlier groups and where it is now. The article stated that every male in the world has a gene marker that can be traced back to a single male ancestor, which the scientist refered to as "Adam" (I'm sure tongue mostly in cheek). Yet the data is there. I do subscribe to micro evolution but have failed to see the evidence in macro evolution puported by most Evolutionists. Just saying that will probably have some Christians condemning me!
I certainly don't know everything about Christianity but what is frustrating is not the people who reject Christ, but the Christians who blindly follow after Him without really trying to understand what they believe, then try and sell their fuzzy faith to others. I believe in the accuracy of the bible in context. Failing to understand the cultural relevance beyond the text will lead to misrepresentations of the bible. Unfortunatly it's those misrepresentations by "believers" that most non-Christians experience. Christ has serious words for these "believers". "Many will come to me that day and say 'Lord, Lord...'. I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers." (Mt 7:22-23)
It is very difficult to understand the bible in context. Exhaustive study is required. Because of that my wife and I can have a turbulent debate about what God really thinks about homosexuals. We agree on 95% of faith issues, yet we can't sort this one out. Yet the debate has made each of us spend more time looking into the issue than we would have done if we both agreed (and possible both agreed on a falsehood) and in the end come to have more compassion for each other and for those engaged in this debate.
Everyone here who has said that they find religion repugnant is on track. Jesus spoke of the same against the Pharasees many times. Trying to create political structures to legislate a belief system will never work. That's what religion does. I believe Catholicism and Islam to be prime examples, with Mainline Protestantism not far behind.
Having spent some time among a Muslim refugee group in the Sahara, I have never felt more welcomed and cared for, with poeple sacrificing for my good above their own. But this group is largly free of the politicised Islam that we see in much of the world. Our church and the religious Imams held a joint dialog last November to educate each group on the tenents of their respective faiths. It was a gound breaking exchange, one of few instances that have happened across the globe. Both side now have a better understanding of each other and the dialog continues...
I'm getting off track. Anyway, my sincere apologies to any non Christian for the offenses of a Christian. I honestly ask forgiveness on their behalf. Christ taught to crowds, but his most effective ministry happened in one on one situations and with a small group of tweleve men. Christianity should be discussed and debated between two people or small groups where a personal relationship can be formed for better understanding by all. This is how my life was changed and allows people to be real, challenged, sharpened, and in the end left to their own decision.
Finally to elaborate on what escapetooz posted, there really are four ways this can go:
There isn't a god and you don't believe- life is only what you make it now.
There isn't a god and you believe - Your fake moral compass will still lead you to higher living now, and after that, who cares.
There is a god and you don't believe - Eternal life in hell is now a reality.
Threre is a god and you do believe - Eternal life in heaven is a reality and the positive moral compass will guide you while you're here.
Message edited by author 2007-03-25 21:45:43. |
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03/25/2007 10:41:58 PM · #48 |
I just have a question to some of those who have posted here (if they're still reading this)
How do you get that there are two stories of the creation of humans in the Bible? To me, the first mention is in the context of the timeline of creation, and then it talks of God resting on the 7th day, and then seems to return to the creation story to explain it more fully. I just don't see how two different stories can be taken from this. |
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03/25/2007 10:55:11 PM · #49 |
Every culture has a creation myth. The Bible's versions merely reflect what was common to the people that held them at the time that they were committed to text.
Since this is deevolving into yet another pointless religious debate, I'm preemptively ignoring it, starting now.
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03/25/2007 11:25:58 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by Mulder:
I just have a question to some of those who have posted here (if they're still reading this)
How do you get that there are two stories of the creation of humans in the Bible? To me, the first mention is in the context of the timeline of creation, and then it talks of God resting on the 7th day, and then seems to return to the creation story to explain it more fully. I just don't see how two different stories can be taken from this. |
I explained it in fair detail. There are two separate creation events - even more "proof" (if the simple text is proof of anything) is that in the first event (1:26) the wording used is "in our image". "Our" is plural.
It's pretty easy to tell that they're separate simply by the ordering, and the fact that the end of Genesis 1 says "And the evening and the morning were the sixth day". Genesis 2 begins on the seventh day, which is when he created Adam. They happened on separate days.
I have no intention of trying to change anyone's beliefs. My own have changed enough times as it is. Yet, throughout my various phases (Christianity, Paganism, and now a general agnostic-extentialist-panthistic mishmash) I have found that these passages ring the same way, regardless of my belief. The words say something very specific and there's little to no "wiggle-room" in them. The events happened separately.
I don't think that they have any real effect on Christian religion as a whole, although I do think that if people read it for what it says, and not for what they've been TOLD that it says, they might be a bit more compassionate to others.
I'm no theology major, although it might have been in interesting path, but I have always held religion to be one of the most interesting subjects around. I've put a lot of research into various religions over the last 20 years or so. 90% of them differ only in the small details - all of the important issues remain the same across the board. |
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