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02/28/2007 01:07:50 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by Skip:
that's why i don't think dpc needs to change the current self-dq policy. if you want to learn and improve, jump in and do it--don't just sit back and wait for it to come to you. |
But if I learn and improve in the first 48 hours, it doesn't hurt you to have me chalk another one to experience earlier than you wish - what's the prob?
Originally posted by Larus:
you never truly know what you are going to get and it is designed as a site for learning photography and when you get a suck ass score you should just chalk it up to experience and move on |
Again, my point is, if I realize it "sucks" I should be able to chalk it up and move on when I want - if it doesn't hurt the rest of the system.
I appreciate the fact that many people like DPC the way it is - but I don't hear too many good arguments why there can't be flexibility. All I'm hearing is "I like it this way". Well if someone else could have it their way while you have it your way, what's the problem?
First Skip advises me (in a PM) to jump to Canon - now this! Kind of makes it hard to keep liking the dude! :-P
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02/28/2007 01:09:13 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by tomcat:
IMO would cause more users to enter shots they would not normally submit; "Hey, if it sucks I can unsubmit" thus lowering the overall quality of submissions. |
This is an excellent point - it would be unfortunate indeed if this happened. However there have been challenges already where the pickings are pretty slim...
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02/28/2007 01:25:53 PM · #53 |
It's only a "fun" contest. Just submit and have fun. Learn from low scores....don't bail out. Someone has to lose !
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02/28/2007 01:29:54 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by linda:
Go ahead Skip, kick me while I'm down!! (LOL!!) |
aww, quit your crying and turn your scores off ;-)
hey, doug, how about this: an option for your entries not to show up on your dpc home page? if you don't want it in your face, you simply turn it off.
these challenges can be fun, but sometimes, we can take them too seriously. and, even though part of the motivation is to get comments, challenge-driven comments are not what's going to make you a better photographer.
rob, the thing to do isn't to wait for someone else to tell you why your image finished a point or two behind where you thought it would be. the thing to do is to step back and look at the top 20 and then honestly and realistically compare your image to the ones that finished at the top. what was it about those images the made such a connection with the viewers and voters that caused them to get the votes that yours didn't. this is something you have to answer for yourself, if you are going to compete, because when you're out there setting up a shot or trying to grab something for a challenge, you're not going to have anyone but yourself to guide you. |
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02/28/2007 01:39:50 PM · #55 |
Just to add my two cents....
I would be pretty sad if people were given the option to unsubmit their image just because it was tanking or only doing mediocre. I've got a good long string of mediocre going on but I'm learning SO much from examining the images that place near mine! AND it's reassuring, too. You read the scores thread and people are so upset because they're getting a 5.5. At the end of a challenge, you can check out all the people that got a 5.5 or a 5.4 or whatever and see that, despite what folks said, a 5.5 score does not mean it's a sucky picture!
Also, it's hard to tell how you're really doing in a challenge... I thought I was finally getting a grip on score and placement... and in the Love challenge I thought I'd place around 100... but I got 48th, instead! AND with a 5.something score. How many people would lose that kind of experience if they had unsubmitted?
I DO think that unsubmitting would make sense in certain circumstance... like if you had entered attempt 4 at processing when you really meant to enter attempt 17, or if you entered your picture in the wrong challenge altogether, or your model was offended by the usage or something.
Unfortunately, I fear that the scores given here are completely abstract and meaningless without all the context that we give them. "5" doesn't actually mean anything concrete (everyone thinks it means something different) except that it's worse than "7" and better than "3." I think we need other people's submissions to give our own photos score some kind of context.
((Sorry about the ramble - I'm at work and got interupted a few times))
Edited to add: "I would be pretty sad" was not intended to be dramatic. It would only last for a few days before I got over it. ;)
Message edited by author 2007-02-28 13:40:48. |
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02/28/2007 01:51:18 PM · #56 |
So why not just make it mandatory? We have a week of voting. After 3 days of voting, have a mini-rollover: every image scoring below 6.0 at this point gets "dropped" from the challenge, and the only ones left to vote on are the ones with higher scores. Now all the voters can be happy they only have to look at "good" pictures, and they can study them and really rank them where they think they belong. All images that failed to make the cutoff get lumped, at the end, in an "also-ran" category with no scores showing and no places assigned. All images that make the cutoff receive an honorable mention, with ribbons assigned as usual.
I'm not really proposing this seriously, mind you, but to me it makes more sense than what's being discussed here. After all, in the "real world" when you enter a juried exhibition you don't have to suffer the ignominy of not only NOT getting any sort of kudos but ALSO being told your image is the worst of the worst...
R.
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02/28/2007 02:01:57 PM · #57 |
Once you've entered, you've entered. Leave it at that, or the whole scope of DPC and the structure of voting will be decayed. The best of the best will stay in, the rest will pull theirs. Thus, those folks who choose to vote early in the week will be more tempted to troll vote - vote low - in the hope of making some folks pull their image. The late voters will have less work to do, and their "20%" will be much less than the 20% of the early voters. As well, a real troll may influence you to withdraw a picture that would have actually placed pretty well, regardless of the score.
Sorry, terrible idea. Lotsa reasons why. Do not do. |
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02/28/2007 02:08:55 PM · #58 |
I'm afraid I don't see how pulling the image makes a bit of difference if:
-the score (to date) still counts
-the photo continues to be displayed
-you (your photo) is marked as "chicken"
In fact, all of these seem worse than letting the photo stay and seeing if the score improves over the week (as it very often does).
Perhaps learning to critically assess your photo before submitting it would be more useful ... |
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02/28/2007 02:20:14 PM · #59 |
Whew!! I was really just curious about opinions on this, and boy did I get 'em!
I can see some of the pros, and I can see some of the cons; valid points all.
The thing I agree with the absolute MOST is what GE said: "Perhaps learning to critically assess your photo before submitting it would be more useful ..."
Hats off to you there - that's exactly what needs to be done, but for the life of me, I just can't seem to "critically assess" my images in the same way that the voters do! LOL! |
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02/28/2007 02:21:25 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Skip:
rob, the thing to do isn't to wait for someone else to tell you why your image finished a point or two behind where you thought it would be. the thing to do is to step back and look at the top 20 and then honestly and realistically compare your image to the ones that finished at the top. what was it about those images the made such a connection with the viewers and voters that caused them to get the votes that yours didn't. this is something you have to answer for yourself, if you are going to compete, because when you're out there setting up a shot or trying to grab something for a challenge, you're not going to have anyone but yourself to guide you. |
Skip,
I've kind of hijacked the thread with this comment thing, so I won't belabor it. Just one final thought: I think we need both to look ourselves (which I do) and to listen to others (which I do when they say something useful). I could say a lot more about this, but I won't ;) At least not in this thread!
Rob
P.S. Just to reconfirm, I'm not in favor of this "easy withdrawal" idea, for what it matters (which is probably not much).
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02/28/2007 02:35:33 PM · #61 |
just random thoughts on the subject --
We already have one self-dq in place for every 25 entries. That should more than make up for the "oops, put it in the wrong challenge" or "I just cannot live with this bad of a score for the rest of my life" If you are finding that you are submitting to the wrong challenge more than that, you really need to be more careful. And maybe self-judge a bit more critically before you enter. (As the queen of high 4s and low 5s, I obviously have no idea what the voters like, so I feel I can say that fairly.)
Votobooth -- apples to oranges. When VB has a usership of 50K+, and up to 500 (or more) entries in three, four, or five challenges a week, and the forums turn over by the second, then you can make a fair comparison.
If unsubmitting were possible in the first 24 hours, you better believe I would wait until hour 25. Why waste my time on pictures that the photog doesn't want voting on or feedback (and the score is a feedback, in a manner of speaking) about?
And I guess if it shows at all, be it in the average somehow or in a yellow spot, I don't see the benefit of it. If you want it removed, why still have it there.
Those were the highpoints of the discussion for me, or what stuck in my head. (And it should go without saying, but since it probably doesn't for some folks, these are my opinions, I am not speaking on behalf of the SC).
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02/28/2007 02:40:40 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
-the score (to date) still counts
-the photo continues to be displayed
-you (your photo) is marked as "chicken"
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Please, Paul, as an SC member, don't even ACT like you think no one would abuse line number 1. Withdraw a photo with a score of 8 or 9 and then claim bragging rights and expect it to be included in their average... :) It WOULD happen. Every other possible abuse HAS happened at one time or another.
The only reason this really matters is for ongoing average. What possible damage does a low-scoring photo REALLY do? It makes our average look bad, and that's a stat that comes up a lot in league play "team picking" and the Suck League and other stuff like that. If you enter a bad photo, let it score what it scores and move on. We don't need a "tool" to allow us to manipulate our average. If you don't like gambling, stay away from the poker machines and the casinos. That's the way this game works :) |
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02/28/2007 02:40:48 PM · #63 |
I kind of like taking my lumps when submitting a picture that tanks. No, i'm not a masochist ;)
To me, a low score AND the lack of comments is the main commentary on a tanker. People just didn't think it merited the time of day. Sure, there will always be pictures that place in the high 4's and low 5's that are good, solid photos... They just didn't appeal to the mass DPC audience. A low score doesn't always equate with bad photography, IMO. (But sometimes it might ;))
DK- I do like the "Big Chicken" idea though. Could it be an actual gif that shows on your profile page? One per withdrawal. :)
The site is about learning and competition and it does both admirably well, considering the diverse group of people and skill levels present. I like the idea of sink or swim, starting with day one and lasting through day 7. |
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02/28/2007 02:46:31 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by nards656:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
-the score (to date) still counts
-the photo continues to be displayed
-you (your photo) is marked as "chicken"
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Please, Paul, as an SC member, don't even ACT like you think no one would abuse line number 1. Withdraw a photo with a score of 8 or 9 and then claim bragging rights and expect it to be included in their average... :) It WOULD happen. Every other possible abuse HAS happened at one time or another.
The only reason this really matters is for ongoing average. What possible damage does a low-scoring photo REALLY do? It makes our average look bad, and that's a stat that comes up a lot in league play "team picking" and the Suck League and other stuff like that. If you enter a bad photo, let it score what it scores and move on. We don't need a "tool" to allow us to manipulate our average. If you don't like gambling, stay away from the poker machines and the casinos. That's the way this game works :) |
I think that is what Paul is saying. If you are going to do those three things, why have the unsubmit option at all? |
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02/28/2007 02:56:04 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by karmat:
I think that is what Paul is saying. If you are going to do those three things, why have the unsubmit option at all? |
Yes, that's what I meant, although there is a potential for abuse if the score counts -- as someone who's never had a photo score 7, I can certainly understand the temptation to pull a photo with a first vote of 9.
However, since the overall average is (I believe) calculated based on total votes, not on "challenge score/number of challenges" I don't think it would have that much of a beneficial effect. |
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02/28/2007 03:00:13 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by karmat:
I think that is what Paul is saying. If you are going to do those three things, why have the unsubmit option at all? |
Yes, that's what I meant, although there is a potential for abuse if the score counts -- as someone who's never had a photo score 7, I can certainly understand the temptation to pull a photo with a first vote of 9.
However, since the overall average is (I believe) calculated based on total votes, not on "challenge score/number of challenges" I don't think it would have that much of a beneficial effect. |
this is true. it would take forever to bring it up
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02/28/2007 03:01:01 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
However, since the overall average is (I believe) calculated based on total votes, not on "challenge score/number of challenges" I don't think it would have that much of a beneficial effect. |
Your right on this point, it done by average total votes received. It would also knock percentile finish stat all out of whack. |
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02/28/2007 03:02:22 PM · #68 |
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02/28/2007 03:03:56 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by bergwalters:
How do I DQ myself? |
Break the rules! LOL
Just kidding, contact Site Council. :) |
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02/28/2007 03:08:32 PM · #70 |
Again, this is what I propose:
1- a big section at the end the challenge results (after the DQs) of withdrawals marked prominently in yellow,
2- a yellow mark on the profile page (similar to the DQ red right now),
3- a stat kept of withdrawals,
4- the score at the time of withdrawal is still averaged into the overall average (after minimum 50 votes),
5- the comments anyone happened to make on that image are maintained for future generations to appreciate,
It's just adding another way to experience this site. I think you'd agree we don't all learn the same - the web presents an opportunity to customize our experience.
Think of it as accomodating the handicapped - those of us that learn differently, or want to learn differently than you. You don't have to understand, you don 't have to agree. If it doesn't hurt what you are doing on your side of DPC - why do you care? What are you afraid of? :-|
I actually like Bears idea of a cut off midway through the challenge - that would shake it up wouldn't it?
Message edited by author 2007-02-28 15:09:05.
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02/28/2007 03:41:41 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
However, since the overall average is (I believe) calculated based on total votes, not on "challenge score/number of challenges" I don't think it would have that much of a beneficial effect. |
Really? I would like to see a stat that shows it as challenge score/number of challenges. I think a "finishing average" would be a more valid number than total votes. Let's petition Langdon for an additional statistic, assuming you are correct. |
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02/28/2007 03:47:25 PM · #72 |
I didn't read all of this. Too many "me too"s.
I feel that it SHOULD be allowed, but not in the way suggested.
Shots should be allowed to be removed from challenges without being counted as a self-DQ, but ONLY if there is a reason to remove it (not "I don't like my score").
If it was clearly entered into the wrong challenge, remove it without penalty. If you misread the challenge description and clearly edited under the wrong ruleset, you find out that the time is wrong on your EXIF, etc.
I guess maybe what I'm getting at is that a self-DQ shouldn't count towards the penalty rules, but you must have a _reason_ to self-DQ. |
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02/28/2007 03:50:16 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by chimericvisions:
If it was clearly entered into the wrong challenge, remove it without penalty. If you misread the challenge description and clearly edited under the wrong ruleset, you find out that the time is wrong on your EXIF, etc.
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If you edited agains t the rules or have the date wrong then you broke the rules and it should be a regualr dq. all of your other reasons work under the current self dq rule |
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02/28/2007 04:32:17 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
... 4- the score at the time of withdrawal is still averaged into the overall average (after minimum 50 votes),
...I think you'd agree we don't all learn the same - the web presents an opportunity to customize our experience.... |
First of all, the quote above was truncated to help with my question.
DK,
I'm trying to stay open minded but I don't follow your statement above. Statistics will show that after 50 votes your score is unlikely to change more than a tenth or two. So how has your learning changed if you can self-DQ after that many votes? You can just stop looking at your score and comments after 50 votes if you don't want to learn anything more.
I agree that your suggestion may change your "experience" but I don't understand how it changes your "learning".
For the record...
I say no thank you to the suggestion. After all this is a challenge-based-site. Pulling a shot is like falling behind in a 100 yard dash and saying "I quit because I've learned I don't run as fast as the other runners" Do your due diligence before the submission and let the chips fall where they may.
Message edited by author 2007-02-28 16:33:11. |
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02/28/2007 04:42:08 PM · #75 |
The way I see it is, I enter a photo that bombs during voting...it was my choice to enter it so I have to grin and bear it. I live near the bottom, so I don't have far to fall!!
My opinion is why bother to enter a challenge, if you have in the back of your mind to unsubmit if it doesn't score well? You enter, unless you have broken rules, you stay til the end. |
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