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02/28/2007 10:40:31 AM · #26 |
Ok, Kelli is on the record as not liking my plan...
Nova -
I watched the last challenge pretty closely (placed high - funner to watch knowwhatImean?)
The last two days I received 100 votes - if I had chosen to withdraw on day 5 - that's 100 people that wouldn't have to vote on my "dead horse". So no matter when I choose to withdraw I'm still streamlining the voting for many voters - see my point?
Agree with my point? :-)
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02/28/2007 10:48:49 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
Nova -
I watched the last challenge pretty closely (placed high - funner to watch knowwhatImean?)
The last two days I received 100 votes - if I had chosen to withdraw on day 5 - that's 100 people that wouldn't have to vote on my "dead horse". So no matter when I choose to withdraw I'm still streamlining the voting for many voters - see my point?
Agree with my point? :-) |
I think I understand your point... not certain about that. You are apparently responding to my "first 24 hours" idea. I just offer that as a possibility to ease the concerns that some have mentioned above that there would be too many withdrawals as the challenges progress. It was just a thought, I don't feel strongly one way or the other. |
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02/28/2007 10:50:06 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
Ok, Kelli is on the record as not liking my plan...
Nova -
I watched the last challenge pretty closely (placed high - funner to watch knowwhatImean?)
The last two days I received 100 votes - if I had chosen to withdraw on day 5 - that's 100 people that wouldn't have to vote on my "dead horse". So no matter when I choose to withdraw I'm still streamlining the voting for many voters - see my point?
Agree with my point? :-) |
LOL! But, you scored 4th. Now, what if you had withdrawn on day 5 and the two 2 votes you got were on day 6 (or any combination of lower votes) and the difference could have made you 3rd and given you a ribbon. Are you entitled to the ribbon or are you out of the running due to pulling your image? Would your image go to the last page maybe? Show the DQ's then the pulled images? How would this work? |
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02/28/2007 10:57:46 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
We could have it so the photog's score at time of withdrawal still figured into their overall average.[/b] It's a web site folks - flexibility is it's middle name.
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Oh, I'd love this one. I'd wait every turnover to watch my early scores. Every 8, 9, or 10 that popped up by itself I'd pull my entry at once. Then the score would really boost my average.
NOT
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02/28/2007 10:58:19 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
LOL! But, you scored 4th. Now, what if you had withdrawn on day 5 and the two 2 votes you got were on day 6 (or any combination of lower votes) and the difference could have made you 3rd and given you a ribbon. Are you entitled to the ribbon or are you out of the running due to pulling your image? Would your image go to the last page maybe? Show the DQ's then the pulled images? How would this work? |
Of course when anyone withdraws they go to the back of the line - below even the DQ's! How could you justify a ribbon for someone who withdraws.
Are you trying to be difficult? :-)
Go back and read through my posts again, I think you might be reading too fast and not getting what I'm saying -
the only result from a withdrawal is a yellow mark on your PERMANENT record - proceeding directly to the BACK of the challenge results - and an addition to the "BIG CHICKEN" statistic of challenges withdrawn on your profile page - highlighted in YELLOW - so everyone knows you were a chicken one or 100 times in your life.
Do not pass Go
Do not collect $200
If anyone can prosper in anyway by withdrawing, we've implemented it incorrectly - THAT is what I'm saying.
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02/28/2007 11:01:11 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by fir3bird:
Oh, I'd love this one. I'd wait every turnover to watch my early scores. Every 8, 9, or 10 that popped up by itself I'd pull my entry at once. Then the score would really boost my average.
NOT |
Firebird, - you need to read all the posts. But I totally understand. Let me restate...
We could say you have to have 50 votes before you can withdraw - does that help? (about 6 posts up I mentioned this)
AND
You'd have a yellow mark through your entry on your page - like the red marks through the DQ's currently. So even if you saw a REALLY high average you could see that the person had withdrawn 50 times - how credible would that be.
This IS doable, admit it people.
Message edited by author 2007-02-28 11:02:07.
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02/28/2007 11:01:32 AM · #32 |
I like the idea of being able to pull the trigger within the first 24 hours... I pretty much know by then if it's a bomb or not!
As for the "average" thing...I have never concerned myself with my average. I just want to pull the plug on the "dead horse", as digitalknight says. |
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02/28/2007 11:05:30 AM · #33 |
So if you could unsubmit only in the first 24 hours, then the voters would wait until after that 24 hours before they start voting -- then nobody would unsubmit because they haven't gotten any scores to feel bad about.
Seriously, I say shoot your best, throw it out there and see how your peers view it. That is what this site is about. Not making huge scores or hiding images that don't score well. |
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02/28/2007 11:08:25 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by idnic:
Seriously, I say shoot your best, throw it out there and see how your peers view it. That is what this site is about. Not making huge scores or hiding images that don't score well. |
Can't agree more Cindi. Thats the bottomline. Most people who participate seek just one thing - OTHERS OPINION and when thats what its all about. Not to carry in on the heart though |
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02/28/2007 11:14:21 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by idnic:
So if you could unsubmit only in the first 24 hours, then the voters would wait until after that 24 hours before they start voting -- then nobody would unsubmit because they haven't gotten any scores to feel bad about.
Seriously, I say shoot your best, throw it out there and see how your peers view it. That is what this site is about. Not making huge scores or hiding images that don't score well. |
Cindi, you don't KNOW that - c'mon
I know YOU say shoot your best and throw it out there - but shouldn't others be able to tailor their experience to what they want?
If there's a big section at the end of withdrawals marked prominently in yellow,
if it's a yellow mark on the profile page,
if there's a stat kept of withdrawals,
if the score is still averaged into the overall average (after 50 votes),
if the comments anyone happened to make on that image are maintained for future generations to appreciate,
how does that impact what YOU are doing on DPC?
It's just adding another way to "learn" on this site. I think you'd agree we don't all learn the same - the web presents an opportunity to customize our experience.
And I think you should be able to withdraw anytime you want - given the points above are in place, and there's no way of profiting from the withdrawal.
I respect those that are serious about their averages and ribbons - I don't want that aspect to be harmed in any way. It's a very cool part of DPC.
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02/28/2007 11:14:54 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
Originally posted by Kelli:
LOL! But, you scored 4th. Now, what if you had withdrawn on day 5 and the two 2 votes you got were on day 6 (or any combination of lower votes) and the difference could have made you 3rd and given you a ribbon. Are you entitled to the ribbon or are you out of the running due to pulling your image? Would your image go to the last page maybe? Show the DQ's then the pulled images? How would this work? |
Of course when anyone withdraws they go to the back of the line - below even the DQ's! How could you justify a ribbon for someone who withdraws.
Are you trying to be difficult? :-)
Go back and read through my posts again, I think you might be reading too fast and not getting what I'm saying -
the only result from a withdrawal is a yellow mark on your PERMANENT record - proceeding directly to the BACK of the challenge results - and an addition to the "BIG CHICKEN" statistic of challenges withdrawn on your profile page - highlighted in YELLOW - so everyone knows you were a chicken one or 100 times in your life.
Do not pass Go
Do not collect $200
If anyone can prosper in anyway by withdrawing, we've implemented it incorrectly - THAT is what I'm saying. |
Actually I'm not trying to be difficult. ;P
My point is, when I wanted to pull an entry (which as I've said, I've done twice), it was because I didn't want them to remain. One ended up being hurtful on several levels and the other was a mistake (the score wasn't awful, it was just a mistake). Either way, I didn't want either to remain in my permanent portfolio. By implementing what you want, it would seem that choice would be taken away. That is mainly what I would be against. As I stated before, otherwise I wouldn't care. My scores are completely insignificant to me as you can tell by looking at my entries. I shoot what I like for the most part. I'm here for the party, the friends I make and the "art?" I create. It's all in fun! I'm not a great photographer, sometimes I'm not even a decent photographer. So what? If only the high scores remain, what's the point? |
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02/28/2007 11:15:06 AM · #37 |
Just chiming in here, I like the idea of the 24 hour rule (to allow for mistakes or "real" eye openers in terms of response of the group), but still keeping the overall self-DQ rule as now after 24 hours.
I also like the cry baby statistic for those who have removed in the first 24 hours.
Why don't I like DigitalKnight's suggestion of a "free" right to remove? I can't put my finger on it, but I don't. I think it changes the nature of the challenges too much to know it's that easy to get out. Also, it limits what I as a voter see; yes, I know, big challenges, too many entries, blah blah, but I like to see more shots by people I don't always see shots from. In the last challenge I voted (street photography), none of the top 15 shots were in my top 10. Maybe I (or more likely a few people like me) will come along later and "rescue" a shot that otherwise is tanking. Without waiting until the end, you never really know, and you might go away thinking people don't like a shot when in fact just some people don't like it.
There is a problem though in the argument against DK's suggestion; this is the idea that somehow people learn from scores alone. I don't think that's true; to learn, I think, you need comments. And, when my scores are mid-range (4.5-5.2 or so), I get no or almost no useful comments.
Example: my minimalism entry received three comments, and scored at 5.19. One comment asked why there wasn't a border (are you kidding me?), one contained only the word "very" and the other said, essentially, it's boring (in all fairness, I wrote to this last commenter, as I like his shots a lot, and he took quite a bit of time to give me a very detailed and thorough critique of the shot by PM).
Another example: my "entrance" entry -- which scored at 4.93 -- also received three comments, none of which were substantive. I appreciate that the people who did comment liked my little girl (I really do appreciate those kind comments), but no one else chose to say anything at all about the shot itself.
So, where is the mentoring? Where is the learning? My current shot (in low key II) moves regularly between 4.3 and 4.8, has 45 votes and no comments. If mentoring and the ability to learn is key here, we need more comments, and more substantive comments, from the voters. Otherwise, I'll continue to learn more from doing projects (like the 30 days where you live project) than I will from entering challenges. And if that's the case, the arguments against pulling an image from an ongoing challenge because the person could learn more leaving it in seem to fall by the wayside.
Just my opinion.
Rob
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02/28/2007 11:16:24 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by manniagni:
Can't agree more Cindi. Thats the bottomline. Most people who participate seek just one thing - OTHERS OPINION and when thats what its all about. Not to carry in on the heart though |
But often, there are NO comments forthcoming - I have NO IDEA why my LowKey is doing so middle of the road - one comment about how pretty my model is -
So why waste other voters time? I've gotten as much "lack of feedback" as I need for this one.
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02/28/2007 11:22:15 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by rheverly:
So, where is the mentoring? Where is the learning? My current shot (in low key II) moves regularly between 4.3 and 4.8, has 45 votes and no comments. If mentoring and the ability to learn is key here, we need more comments, and more substantive comments, from the voters. |
You have made my point exactly. If it's midrange, if there's no comments, why should hundreds of people have to keep glancing at my photo and click 4 or 5.
If I decide to go to the back of the line, it doesn't affect the challenge or the standing of the site - it gives me bad marks on my profile - not a big deal to me - I'm not using my DPC profile on my resume - and it's how I learn.
My concern here is that so many are willing to enforce their form of learning on others. If I'm not getting what I need out of a challenge (no comments), or if I have gotten what I want (realizing I've missed the boat again and I'm not going to get comments) - the flexibility to withdraw where it doesn't hurt anyone who IS serious about stats and ribbons shouldn't be that big of a deal.
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02/28/2007 11:27:29 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
Originally posted by manniagni:
Can't agree more Cindi. Thats the bottomline. Most people who participate seek just one thing - OTHERS OPINION and when thats what its all about. Not to carry in on the heart though |
But often, there are NO comments forthcoming - I have NO IDEA why my LowKey is doing so middle of the road - one comment about how pretty my model is -
So why waste other voters time? I've gotten as much "lack of feedback" as I need for this one. |
I agree with digitalknight - esp. 1st posting.
Mine was last minute - did not appear as I envisioned, is scoring terribly and no one is commenting. It would help if someone put a name to why - then it becomes something concrete to work with and something to work on correcting - heck it could be the camera, overcorrecting/sharpening in software or just a lousey photo. Frankly I'd like to unsubmit it - this is the first time in over 2 years I'd like to un-submit. I've scored low before - but this pic just embarrasses me. |
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02/28/2007 11:30:00 AM · #41 |
i wouldn't want anything changed.
you get one free 'what-was-i-thinking' for every 25 entries, and i think that's adequate.
as for this site being a 'learning site', well, i have a pretty strong opinion about that...
i don't think anybody here really learns from getting comments.
i think that if you really want to learn, you have to MAKE COMMENTS. you have to take the time to view the images and learn to articulate your reaction to the image and how you would have handled trying to shoot it.
it's the difference between passive learning and active learning. if you take responsibility for teaching yourself, you'll learn a lot more than if you are sitting back waiting for someone to hand it to you.
that's why i don't think dpc needs to change the current self-dq policy. if you want to learn and improve, jump in and do it--don't just sit back and wait for it to come to you. |
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02/28/2007 11:35:30 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by Skip:
if you take responsibility for teaching yourself, you'll learn a lot more than if you are sitting back waiting for someone to hand it to you. |
Especially when constructive criticism is in short supply, and many people don't take it well. |
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02/28/2007 11:38:52 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by Skip:
i wouldn't want anything changed.
you get one free 'what-was-i-thinking' for every 25 entries, and i think that's adequate.
as for this site being a 'learning site', well, i have a pretty strong opinion about that...
i don't think anybody here really learns from getting comments.
i think that if you really want to learn, you have to MAKE COMMENTS. you have to take the time to view the images and learn to articulate your reaction to the image and how you would have handled trying to shoot it.
it's the difference between passive learning and active learning. if you take responsibility for teaching yourself, you'll learn a lot more than if you are sitting back waiting for someone to hand it to you.
that's why i don't think dpc needs to change the current self-dq policy. if you want to learn and improve, jump in and do it--don't just sit back and wait for it to come to you. |
Go ahead Skip, kick me while I'm down!! (LOL!!) |
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02/28/2007 11:41:43 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by Skip:
snip...
i think that if you really want to learn, you have to MAKE COMMENTS. you have to take the time to view the images and learn to articulate your reaction to the image and how you would have handled trying to shoot it.
it's the difference between passive learning and active learning. if you take responsibility for teaching yourself, you'll learn a lot more than if you are sitting back waiting for someone to hand it to you.
snip... |
I can't argue with this - it is true. I've learned far more from the comments I've made on this site, then from the comments I've received. |
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02/28/2007 12:17:57 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Skip:
i wouldn't want anything changed.
you get one free 'what-was-i-thinking' for every 25 entries, and i think that's adequate.
as for this site being a 'learning site', well, i have a pretty strong opinion about that...
i don't think anybody here really learns from getting comments.
i think that if you really want to learn, you have to MAKE COMMENTS. you have to take the time to view the images and learn to articulate your reaction to the image and how you would have handled trying to shoot it.
it's the difference between passive learning and active learning. if you take responsibility for teaching yourself, you'll learn a lot more than if you are sitting back waiting for someone to hand it to you.
snip |
Linda may not disagree, but I do. I have commented, and try to do so constructively (though I've stopped commenting on the low end of competitions because of brown ribbon seekers, who don't really need my time). I always "comment" my shots before I enter them. In detail; and rework them; and think them through. Many times I reprocess from the start. Then I enter, and it tanks. I might have thought it was a six, it ends up a 4.9 in a high scoring challenge.
Now I need comments. What did other people see that I didn't? In one, a commenter pointed out dead leaves that were (to that commenter) a distraction. One thing that didn't bother me, but I can at least understand how it could. I'll look for that next time I shoot a similar shot. In another, I found out through a PM that my laptop monitor is more sensitive than many CRTs (especially ones that are not calibrated); the range of shades on my screen was missed by some (many?) viewers, who would have seen a pretty boring shot of a moon. Even with the shades, my commenter thought it didn't work, but only through his comments did I understand why. My commenting on five hundred other shots would not have helped me to see what I had missed about my own images.
I read so many comments on the "good" images. "I like this" or "good job". If I'm going to learn (and yes, I have a lot of learning to do), I need someone to tell me what they see in my images, on the site, in the context of a challenge. What we need is more people committed to commenting around the middle.
Rob
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02/28/2007 12:39:05 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by digitalknight:
AND
You'd have a yellow mark through your entry on your page - like the red marks through the DQ's currently.
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I like yellow. ;)
Originally posted by digitalknight:
This IS doable, admit it people. |
Lots of things are do able.
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02/28/2007 12:42:00 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Especially when constructive criticism is in short supply, and many people don't take it well. |
Hey! Whadaya mean I don't take criticism well??????
Hehehehe
;)
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02/28/2007 12:42:30 PM · #48 |
Eh, I think this idea is VERY undesirable.
I mean sure, there are a couple of times I would have wanted to unsubmit a shot on the first day of voting but that´s just the whole part of the fun of DPC, you never truly know what you are going to get and it is designed as a site for learning photography and when you get a suck ass score you should just chalk it up to experience and move on :)
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02/28/2007 01:03:41 PM · #49 |
I like the restriction as it is. I've had some shots not do well but I've let them hang in there. If I were to remove shots just because they weren't doing as well as I had hoped I would hardly have any shots entered. The only self-DQ I did I knew it wasn't going to do well and I really didn't like it and it didn't fit with my style at all. In other words, I didn't want to put my name to the picture. I'm not a great photographer but I'd like to think that even I have a certain standard to uphold for my photography.
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02/28/2007 01:06:51 PM · #50 |
I also think this is a bad idea. Giving users the opportunity to unsubmit IMO would cause more users to enter shots they would not normally submit; "Hey, if it sucks I can unsubmit" thus lowering the overall quality of submissions. As has been said before, learn from your mistakes and move on. Worry more about your photograph before submitting it rather than after.
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