| Author | Thread |
|
|
02/20/2007 04:42:31 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
If you don't save your original, then how can we be sure all you did is rotate?
~Terry |
Transfer a JPG using Nikon Transfer than rotate all. That IS the original. |
|
|
|
02/20/2007 04:44:00 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by tooohip:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
If you don't save your original, then how can we be sure all you did is rotate?
~Terry |
Transfer a JPG using Nikon Transfer than rotate all. That IS the original. |
How can we be sure all you did is rotate?
~Terry
|
|
|
|
02/20/2007 04:45:54 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
How can we be sure all you did is rotate?
~Terry |
Alas, my opinion that these strict rules are starting to border on ridiculous.
I'll keep quiet now, but I think this is just going a bit overboard/ |
|
|
|
02/20/2007 04:50:54 PM · #29 |
| Hi. What precipitated this new announcement? Has anything actually changed? Were you ever less strict? Why not post a list of transfer software that, when used correctly, will not alter the exif or original file (e.g. canon camera window)? Thanks. |
|
|
|
02/20/2007 04:54:10 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by tooohip:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
How can we be sure all you did is rotate?
~Terry |
Alas, my opinion that these strict rules are starting to border on ridiculous.
I'll keep quiet now, but I think this is just going a bit overboard/ |
They're not trying to make your life difficult or keep you from rotating. They're simply enforcing challenge rules in the only way possible. To definitively say that a photo is an original, it cannot be tagged by editing software. If a photo is tagged as being edited by a program, there's no way to tell if it's just been rotated or if it's been rotated and then clones stamped and filtered beyond the limits of the rules. If rotating tags the photo as edited, it is no longer an original, simple as that. Making sure we have true originals may be a pain, but in a community this size it isn't fair to expect the SC to take peoples word for it that all they did was rotate. |
|
|
|
02/20/2007 04:54:32 PM · #31 |
This is nothing new. If you search the forums you'll see many conversations about the software that alters original files and the DQs associated with it. Still, I appreciate Terry's reminder since obviously not everyone is aware even now.
|
|
|
|
02/20/2007 04:54:55 PM · #32 |
This isn't anything new, folks. SC is just doing you the favor of alerting you to the fact that some software is invalidating your EXIF. You would have been busted for it anyway. It's not a new rule. It's not even a new interpretation. It's not even an interpretation. It's a clear explanation of an enforcement policy.
It's NOT making announcements like these that cause the lot of you to scream "foul" six months down the road when you are DQed because your original cannot be verified. "I've been doing it for 4 years now and you've never DQed me..."
The rules haven't changed.
|
|
|
|
02/20/2007 04:55:31 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by idnic:
This is nothing new. If you search the forums you'll see many conversations about the software that alters original files and the DQs associated with it. Still, I appreciate Terry's reminder since obviously not everyone is aware even now. |
Poor muckpond, he gets no respect. |
|
|
|
02/20/2007 04:57:08 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by idnic:
This is nothing new. If you search the forums you'll see many conversations about the software that alters original files and the DQs associated with it. Still, I appreciate Terry's reminder since obviously not everyone is aware even now. |
Poor muckpond, he gets no respect. |
D'oh, sorry, Rob! :D
|
|
|
|
02/20/2007 04:58:35 PM · #35 |
|
|
|
02/20/2007 04:59:49 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by idnic:
This is nothing new. If you search the forums you'll see many conversations about the software that alters original files and the DQs associated with it. Still, I appreciate Terry's Rob's reminder since obviously not everyone is aware even now. |
what's new is that we will be disqualifying images without exception if a valid original cannot be produced.
and since we've never "officially" defined what is a "valid original" before, it's nice to have this all in one, succinct sticky thread don't you think?
edit: gramer
Message edited by author 2007-02-20 17:00:04. |
|
|
|
02/20/2007 05:03:05 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
......Terry's Rob's ...... |
*giggle*
And yes, Rob, I do think its nice to have all the details tucked into one post. :)
|
|
|
|
02/20/2007 05:10:56 PM · #38 |
My understanding is that Picasa does not alter the original file no matter what you do to it, unless you export it to a different folder (and then its a copy, so the original is still untouched). I think Picasa just saves the changes in a separate data file, that tells the program what actions to perform to the image for viewing purposes. So if you use Picasa as your viewer (after transferring files via My Computer) your original should be OK, even if you tell Picasa to rotate it for viewing purposes. Can anyone confirm if this is correct?
(This may only be applicable to jpegs, as I don't know if Picasa works as a RAW viewer.) |
|
|
|
02/20/2007 05:12:15 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
huf! |
Paul Huf? |
|
|
|
02/20/2007 05:15:17 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by skewsme:
Why not post a list of transfer software that, when used correctly, will not alter the exif or original file (e.g. canon camera window)? |
Because most (maybe all) transfer software CAN alter files in certain situations. For example, if you're using a Mac, the default way to import photos is through iPhoto. You could also simply drag them off the media card mounted on your desktop or use the software that came with your camera, but iPhoto is the default. Now, iPhoto automatically saves a copy of your original file whenever any change is made, BUT it's not always obvious that you changed something...
If you shot a photo in portrait mode with a camera that can auto-rotate images, iPhoto will automatically rotate your images on import and save the unrotated original as a backup. What many people don't expect is that when you Revert to Original, iPhoto calls up the original file and helpfully rotates it again, so it's still modified even though you may think it's the original. If we look at the EXIF data on such a file, there's no way for us to know if the file was merely auto-rotated or if you did a Photoshop war dance on it and then imported/exported through iPhoto. Obviously, we can't acccept that.
The solution is easy for Mac users: just manually locate the file within the Originals folder of your iPhoto Library. This doesn't change anything as far as workflow. It's simply a matter of knowing where the "real" original is located if you need to send it in for validation. Each applications will have its own issues, and it's a good idea to know what your software is doing with your files regardless of whether they're for DPC. |
|
|
|
02/20/2007 05:15:53 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by GinaRothfels:
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by GinaRothfels:
I always use cut and paste, so I'm okay. The only thing I've often wondered about is whether using the rotate buttons in 'Windows Picture and Fax Viewer' has any effect on the file, bearing in mind that the cameras I use have an orientation sensor (as do most current cameras). |
I remember a discussion about this that concluded that using rotate in Windows Picture and Fax Viewer *does indeed* alter the file.
So I'd just be safer than sorry and not do it. |
Eek, now I have to look at all my photos sideways to decide whether they have potential as challenge entries. That will hurt. |
I don't understand.. if your camera has an orientation sensor, they should be going on your computer in the correct orientation anyway...?
Or did you mean the cameras you use *don't* have an orientation sensor?
My DS doesn't, and I've been looking at pictures sideways since I got it. hehe. It's an art form.
*EDIT* CJ brought up a good point.. you *can* always temporarily save copies of images in another directory in order to rotate them to look at them. I never do it because I've never needed to.. but there it is. |
My camera DOES have an orientation sensor, and they open the right orientation in PS Elements regardless of whether they have been rotated in 'Windows Picture and Fax Viewer'. As for duplicating them, my computer is so slow that I don't want to duplicate things and make it even slower. Once stuff is there I never seem to find time to delete it again.
|
|
|
|
02/20/2007 05:16:08 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
and since we've never "officially" defined what is a "valid original" before, it's nice to have this all in one, succinct sticky thread don't you think?
|
It's pretty nice, indeed, but I'm pretty doggone sure that the rules have ALWAYS said something VERY close to...
Originally posted by Challenge Rules:
retain your original, unedited file (exactly as recorded by your camera) |
.
The "exactly as recorder by your camera" is pretty much a dead giveaway, to me.
I'm not ATTEMPTING to be a dick, I'm just saying that there's no need for the citizens to rise up against a speed limit that has been posted for years, just because it is being enforced rigidly. It's not a new speed limit. It just happens to have a flashing yellow light attached now, saying, "Hey, this is the speed limit. It's enforced." |
|
|
|
02/20/2007 05:16:17 PM · #43 |
Okay.
Dump your files into a folder by simple copy/paste straight from your camera/card.
Download the tiny file sized and free Irfanview.
Go to the folder with jpegs you just dumped on your harddrive.
Open the first file with irfanview.
Hit enter to go to fullscreen view (want to leave this view, hit escape or enter)
To go to the next file hit space, to go back a file hit backspace.
Want to rotate an image? Hit R to rotate 90 degrees to the right, hit L to rotate 90 degrees to the left. Nothing will happen to your file as long as you don't save it. The file won't stay rotated and nothing will be altered. Just hit space to move on or escape to leave the program.
I have used Irfanview as my filebrowser for longer than DPC has existed, it's the first thing I put on any computer I work on.
All those windows default viewers from microsoft really suck and many others are resource hogs or clutter up your drive with thumb databases or crap in your temp folders.
|
|
|
|
02/20/2007 05:16:44 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by EstimatedEyes:
(This may only be applicable to jpegs, as I don't know if Picasa works as a RAW viewer.) |
Picasa definitely reads RAW. |
|
|
|
02/20/2007 05:21:12 PM · #45 |
I typically use the image transfer software for ease of use. (In my case Nikon capture) and organize, priortize my pictures etc. I select the picture I am going to use for the given challenge and do whatever editing is required. Once I have completed my work I copy the original picture from the camera directly to a special folder and mark it as read only. This way no image software tries to catalog it etc.
Just out of curiousity how long do we have to hang on to our originals for? I typically ditch the original 48 hours after voting is completed but I'd like to ensure I am safe here.
|
|
|
|
02/20/2007 05:22:36 PM · #46 |
Oh, and when getting a new camera. Ignore all those warnings to install the CD first. Nine times out of ten XP/Vista will recognize your camera as a drive. Some camera's you have to tell to behave that way (Sony W's for example). The software from almost all camera makers sucks beyond belief anyway.
Also on many factory support sites there are often small programs to help USB recognition without all the software clutter that is installed by default from CD's.
A card reader can be as cheap as a 10 bucks....
|
|
|
|
02/20/2007 05:22:45 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by skylercall:
Originally posted by GinaRothfels:
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by GinaRothfels:
The only thing I've often wondered about is whether using the rotate buttons in 'Windows Picture and Fax Viewer' has any effect on the file. |
I remember a discussion about this that concluded that using rotate in Windows Picture and Fax Viewer *does indeed* alter the file.
So I'd just be safer than sorry and not do it. |
Eek, now I have to look at all my photos sideways to decide whether they have potential as challenge entries. That will hurt. |
Take a picture you don't care about (or a copy of one you do) and right click on the thumbnail within widows explorer and click on rotate thumbnail. Check the file size after this and you will see that it is smaller. Keep rotating it and keep checking the file size. It gets smaller and smaller every time. As for opening the file in Windows Picture Viewer you can rotate it there to look at. Just don't save it. |
That's actually what I was asking about, not rotating in Photoshop. No saving involved. But how do I know it's not doing a save that I don't know about?
|
|
|
|
02/20/2007 05:25:46 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by GinaRothfels:
No saving involved. But how do I know it's not doing a save that I don't know about? |
Some software definitely appears to do some saving that it's not asking you about. |
|
|
|
02/20/2007 05:29:14 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by GinaRothfels:
Originally posted by skylercall:
Originally posted by GinaRothfels:
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by GinaRothfels:
The only thing I've often wondered about is whether using the rotate buttons in 'Windows Picture and Fax Viewer' has any effect on the file. |
I remember a discussion about this that concluded that using rotate in Windows Picture and Fax Viewer *does indeed* alter the file.
So I'd just be safer than sorry and not do it. |
Eek, now I have to look at all my photos sideways to decide whether they have potential as challenge entries. That will hurt. |
Take a picture you don't care about (or a copy of one you do) and right click on the thumbnail within widows explorer and click on rotate thumbnail. Check the file size after this and you will see that it is smaller. Keep rotating it and keep checking the file size. It gets smaller and smaller every time. As for opening the file in Windows Picture Viewer you can rotate it there to look at. Just don't save it. |
That's actually what I was asking about, not rotating in Photoshop. No saving involved. But how do I know it's not doing a save that I don't know about? |
We must be getting lines crossed somewhere.. I never once mentioned photoshop. I meant saving copies in a new folder to open with Windows Picture Viewer so you can rotate and look at them at leisure without having to mess up your originals. Also, it was my understanding that any camera that has an orientation sensor and auto-rotates in camera, will be copied over to the hard drive already auto-rotated.. but I guess I was mistaken on that point?
anyway, I didn't mean anything about photoshop. I never save copies of my images when I work in photoshop myself.. I just be sure to use "save as..." in order to leave the original completely untouched. |
|
|
|
02/20/2007 05:32:04 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
what's new is that we will be disqualifying images without exception if a valid original cannot be produced.
|
Have there been cases where exceptions have been made? I have seen DQ's to some of the longstanding members with multiple ribbons be DQ'ed for this reason. I am curious if there have been cases where you have looked passed the valid original. Or is this just a case where this thread is more of a formal reminder to everyone. |
|
