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02/06/2007 09:05:05 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
The fundamental difference is that abortion is not killing without reason: |
Neither is war. Neither is justifiable self defense. Neither is Capital punishment.
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
it occurs as a consequence of two competing rights clashing. |
Exactly.
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02/06/2007 12:56:18 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by "technostorm":
How would a tadpole be considered a fetus in the modern sense? It develops outside the body from an egg doesn't it? |
...So the difference between a tadpole and a feotus is it's womb. In the case of a tadpole it's womb is a pond....
This has been a long-standing argument I've received from people who support abortion. A tadpole is nothing more than a frog feutus. It's not a frog, nor is it quite the egg it once was. |
No.
While some frogs have fetuses, a tadpole is a larva. It's a juvenile form distinct from its parents. The pond is its environment not its womb.
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02/06/2007 01:16:30 PM · #53 |
So Giuliani has thrown his hat in the ring. A republican who is pro-choice, pro-gun control, pro-gay rights. While he only hits one of three for me on those fronts, it's refreshing to see someone with some policies against the party line.
A) It will be interesting to see how he survives the wall known as South Carolina in the primaries.
B) Why can't the dems come up with some refreshing candidates? |
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02/06/2007 01:43:07 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by "legalbeagle":
The fundamental difference is that abortion is not killing without reason: it occurs as a consequence of two competing rights clashing. |
There is the real issue isn't. So why is murder wrong? It's often the exact same thing. One person's rich and has money, the other is poor. He robs and murders. It was just a consequence of two competing rights?
Originally posted by "legalbeagle":
No - but neither is it usually considered a fully developed human. |
Neither is a kindergartener a fully developed human. In fact, most 10 yr olds haven't reached puberty and are thus not a fully developed human.
Originally posted by "legalbeagle":
Your life is obviously very easy, pure and you are obviously very strong. There are other people who do not live life in the rigourously righteous manner that you do. Maybe in your munificence you would permit them to deal with their mistakes? |
My mother was basically homeless when I was born. On a number of occasions in my life I have lived in near homeless state. As an infant, then again when I was 10 yrs of age and living in a dirt floor garage pissing in a bucket. More recently I hopped around with family for a while. So no...
But fixing mistakes doesn't mean ending another's rights, IMHO. If that is allowable there are a number of people I should have the right to blow away. (ie: the mortgage salesmen who lied to me and put me into a situation that cost me $20,000. Why can't I go right that mistake by aborting him. Not only would I be righting my mistake I'd be preventing many others from making the same mistake and being robbed, isn't that a good thing?)
Originally posted by "legalbeagle":
I don't understand: these are exactly the issues that govern the development of the law (at least here in the UK). Is your argument against abortion per se, or against late term abortion (for which I would have a lot of sympathy)? |
Late-term abortion I see as inexcusable. My issue is with taking responsibility for your actions, and not letting another's rights be destroyed for your convenience in escaping your responsibility.
Message edited by author 2007-02-06 13:43:16. |
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02/06/2007 01:57:11 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Just so you don't think I'm against you Jason (I'm generally "pro-life" or whatever that moniker denotes), but I highly doubt there are partial birth abortions beyond 23-24 weeks (term is 40 weeks)... |
Because the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's annual study on abortion statistics does not calculate the exact gestational age for abortions performed past the 20th week, there is no exact data for the number of abortions performed after viability. In the United States, 1.4% of abortions occur at 21 weeks or later[3](approximately 18,000 per year[4]). In 1997, the Alan Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions past 24 weeks to be 0.08% (approximately 1,032 per year).[5]
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion
Though I question why the CDC does not collect gestational information beyond 20 weeks. |
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02/06/2007 02:11:14 PM · #56 |
I would like to see Obama and Edwards team up, I think that's an amazing ticket. I'd rather see Hillary win over any random Republican, but I think that it's been demonstrated here that she has too many detractors within her own party. But on the other hand, if Giuliani ends up getting the nomination on the Republican side, that would merit some serious consideration as well. Fiscally Republican, socially Democrat, it's a combo I kinda like.
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02/06/2007 05:31:34 PM · #57 |
apologies.
Message edited by author 2007-02-06 18:00:35.
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02/06/2007 05:33:58 PM · #58 |
This has gone way off topic and veered into a winless debate that will do nothing but piss everyone off. Nice. When you get back to wanting to discuss candidates for the presidency, let me know.
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02/06/2007 05:35:40 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
The point I am making is that you do not have the problem of a pregnancy in disastrous personal circumstances. Other people do and wish to make a choice. I cannot believe that people generally take the issue lightly or view it as a mere convenience (with the possible exception of the morning after pill, itself at the boundary of the rational parts of your argument). |
I'm really not going to get into this argument other than to keep you both in line. Having done many rotations in Medical School, residency, blah blah blah outside my own profession I have witnessed cases where it is merely convenience. Whoops! We weren't very careful and now I'm pregnant. I can't judge what percentage this constitutes of abortions, but since I happened to come across more than one of these in my limited experience I cannot doubt it is at least not uncommon. |
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02/06/2007 05:35:51 PM · #60 |
| Say, how about we refocus this thread on Clinton's candidacy and continue the details of the abortion debate in its own thread (or in one of the previous threads on the subject) ... the specific pros and cons of that issue do not belong here. |
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02/06/2007 06:22:50 PM · #61 |
Rudy Giuliani's big selling point is how he "handled" 9/11. What did he do exactly? I'm still trying to figure that out. Let's see... he made some speeches... what else? I only know one thing that he did. In Union Square, which is the location from which I saw the towers burning, an impromptu "installation" occurred. It was sort of an amalgam of shrines and missing posters and all kinds of other posters. It was a place of healing, a place for people to gather. He had it torn down within a month of 9/11. And that is what I will always remember Giuliani for.
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02/06/2007 06:34:39 PM · #62 |
Perhaps the fact that you aren't quite sure what he did is his strongest selling point. It seems to me that if you do things right in such a crisis situation it should be fairly invisible. You naturally rally the troops with speeches and the sort, but you also have two zillion things behind the scene that you are in charge of keeping in order and not degrading into total chaos. I will give him full props for doing so. I mean look at the difference between the aftermath of 9/11 and Katrina. Yes, they were quite different in scale (Katrina being much larger), but Katrina was at least forseeable whereas I don't think many people saw 9/11 coming (at least on the local level).
I still think that he's going to have trouble in the Primaries. One question for the Republicans though is who else is a good candidate? McCain will have similar troubles in South Carolina and he's old. In the end, if the candidate that makes it through is as moderate as the two of those fellows, I'll be quite happy and I think so will our country.
Message edited by author 2007-02-06 18:35:55. |
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02/06/2007 07:03:26 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
One question for the Republicans though is who else is a good candidate? McCain will have similar troubles in South Carolina and he's old. In the end, if the candidate that makes it through is as moderate as the two of those fellows, I'll be quite happy and I think so will our country. |
Do you mean good as in good chance to win? Perhaps a McCain/Bush ticket? The Bush legacy isn't looking too good so one must think Jeb who has said he isn't running will still be in the mix.
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02/06/2007 07:10:07 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Do you mean good as in good chance to win? Perhaps a McCain/Bush ticket? The Bush legacy isn't looking too good so one must think Jeb who has said he isn't running will still be in the mix. |
Ouch. I would think that the name "Bush" would be every bit as polarizing as the name "Clinton". The hardcore republican constituency can only vote once like everybody else.
I will know the apocalypse is upon us if Jeb is on the ticket... |
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02/06/2007 07:15:23 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Do you mean good as in good chance to win? Perhaps a McCain/Bush ticket? The Bush legacy isn't looking too good so one must think Jeb who has said he isn't running will still be in the mix. |
Ouch. I would think that the name "Bush" would be every bit as polarizing as the name "Clinton". The hardcore republican constituency can only vote once like everybody else.
I will know the apocalypse is upon us if Jeb is on the ticket... |
I'm just saying.
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02/06/2007 07:24:47 PM · #66 |
Another reason I really really do not want Hillary to win. It'd be another Yalie.
If she wins it will be Bush/Clinton/Clinton/Bush/Bush/Clinton (and likely another /Clinton).
We'd be looking at 24-28 years of only Bushes & Clintons. And a little noticed fact. There has not been a single non-Yale president in 20 years. That's just disturbing. Even the last election would have resulted in a Yalie if Kerry had run.
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02/06/2007 07:31:09 PM · #67 |
| Maybe the Reps need to amend the constitution so Arnold can make a run. He's nicely moderate and seems to be able to think for himself as well... |
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02/06/2007 07:33:56 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Another reason I really really do not want Hillary to win. It'd be another Yalie.
If she wins it will be Bush/Clinton/Clinton/Bush/Bush/Clinton (and likely another /Clinton).
We'd be looking at 24-28 years of only Bushes & Clintons. And a little noticed fact. There has not been a single non-Yale president in 20 years. That's just disturbing. Even the last election would have resulted in a Yalie if Kerry had run. |
It's conspiracy! I believe just Bush and Kerry were skull and bone members and not the Clintons but I maybe mistaken.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Maybe the Reps need to amend the constitution so Arnold can make a run. He's nicely moderate and seems to be able to think for himself as well... |
You really think the dems will go along with that?
Message edited by author 2007-02-06 19:34:17.
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02/06/2007 07:36:10 PM · #69 |
Hillary's Platform....."I want to take that money....."
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02/07/2007 12:06:28 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by TechnoShroom:
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by "technostorm":
How would a tadpole be considered a fetus in the modern sense? It develops outside the body from an egg doesn't it? |
...So the difference between a tadpole and a feotus is it's womb. In the case of a tadpole it's womb is a pond....
This has been a long-standing argument I've received from people who support abortion. A tadpole is nothing more than a frog feutus. It's not a frog, nor is it quite the egg it once was. |
No.
While some frogs have fetuses, a tadpole is a larva. It's a juvenile form distinct from its parents. The pond is its environment not its womb. |
A tadpole is formed from a fertilized egg, layed by an adult female in a pond. Since a toad/frog has no womb, the fertilized egg grows in the pond, hatches and becomes an immature/juvenile, the later grows into an adult.
I believe life starts at conception, thus abortion is murder. Just my thoughts, Van |
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02/07/2007 02:19:03 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by vtruan:
Originally posted by TechnoShroom:
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by "technostorm":
How would a tadpole be considered a fetus in the modern sense? It develops outside the body from an egg doesn't it? |
...So the difference between a tadpole and a feotus is it's womb. In the case of a tadpole it's womb is a pond....
This has been a long-standing argument I've received from people who support abortion. A tadpole is nothing more than a frog feutus. It's not a frog, nor is it quite the egg it once was. |
No.
While some frogs have fetuses, a tadpole is a larva. It's a juvenile form distinct from its parents. The pond is its environment not its womb. |
A tadpole is formed from a fertilized egg, layed by an adult female in a pond. Since a toad/frog has no womb, the fertilized egg grows in the pond, hatches and becomes an immature/juvenile, the later grows into an adult.
I believe life starts at conception, thus abortion is murder. Just my thoughts, Van |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Say, how about we refocus this thread on Clinton's candidacy and continue the details of the abortion debate in its own thread (or in one of the previous threads on the subject) ... the specific pros and cons of that issue do not belong here. |
(Sorry, this does bother me, especially when we've been asked to stay on topic.)
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02/07/2007 03:26:35 PM · #72 |
Hillary = NO! Too Scary
Who I'd like to see?
Tommy Thompson - moderate conservative, was gov of a very blue wisconsin, was secratary of health for bush but resigned, great speaker, very motivational... Sadly he is too unknown and does not have the big $$$ behing him... but in a debate I think he'll draw a lot of attention.
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Thompson
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02/08/2007 09:49:09 AM · #73 |
Hillary Clinton goes to a primary school in New York to talk about
the world. After her talk she offers a question time.
One little boy puts up his hand. The Senator asks him what his name
is.
"Kenneth."
"And what is your question, Kenneth?"
"I have three questions: First - whatever happened to the medical
health care plan you were paid to develop during your husband's eight
years in the office as President? Second - why would you run for
President after your husband shamed the office? Third - whatever
happened to all those things you took when you left the White House?"
Just then the bell rings for recess. Hillary Clinton informs the kids
that they will continue after recess.
When they resume, Hillary says, "Okay, where were we? Oh, that's
right, question time. Who has a question?"
A different little boy puts his hand up. Hillary points him out and
asks him what his name is.
"Larry."
"And what is your question, Larry?"
"I have five questions: First - whatever happened to the medical
health care plan you were paid to develop during your husband's eight
years in the office as President? Second - why would you run for
President after your husband shamed the office? Third - whatever
happened to all those things you took when you left the White House?
Fourth - why did the recess bell go off 20 minutes early? Fifth -
Where's Kenneth?"
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02/14/2007 07:03:29 AM · #74 |
The following is a received mail note. I remember most of these from the news. How soon some forget.
The Clinton Body Bags...
Food for Thought ( How can we afford another Clinton? ) Just a quick refresher course lest we forget what has happened to many "friends"of the Clintons .
1- James McDougal - Clinton 's convicted Whitewater partner died of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key witness in Ken Starr's investigation.
2- Mary Mahoney - A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just after she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the
White House.
3- Vince Foster - Former White House councilor, and colleague of Hillary Clinton at Little Rock 's Rose Law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the head...ruled a suicide.
4- Ron Brown - Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown's skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors. The rest of the people on the plane
also died. A few days later the air Traffic controller commited suicide.
5- C. Victor Raiser II - Raiser, a major player in the Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in July 1992.
6- Paul Tulley - Democratic National Committee Political Director found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, September 1992. Described by Clinton as a "Dear friend and trusted advisor".
7- Ed Willey - Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods in VA of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill
Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.
8- Jerry Parks - Head of Clinton's gubernatorial security team in Little Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock. Park's son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were mysteriously removed from
his house.
9- James Bunch - Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a "Black Book" of people which contained names of influential people who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.
10-James Wilson - Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater.
11- Kathy Ferguson - Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson, was found dead in May 1994, in her living room with a gunshot to her head. It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed
suitcases, as if she were going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.
12- Bill Shelton - Arkansas State Trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in June, 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the grave site of his fiancee.
13- Gandy Baugh - Attorney for Clinton's friend Dan Lassater, died by jumping out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a convicted drug distributor.
14-Florence Martin - Accountant & sub-contractor for the CIA, was related to the Barry Seal Mena, Arkansas Airport drug smuggling case. He died of three gunshot wounds.
15- Suzanne Coleman - Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the head...ruled a suicide. Was also pregnant at the time of her death.
16- Paula Grober - Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.
17- Danny Casolaro - Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparently, in the middle of his investigation.
18- Paul Wilcher - Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with Casolaro and the 1980 "October Surprise" was found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993 in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.
19- Jon Parnell Walker - Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment balcony August15, 1993. He was investigating the Morgan Guaranty scandal.
20- Barbara Wise - Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her bruised, nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce.
21- Charles Meissner - Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane crash.
22- Dr. Stanley Heard - Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory council personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather and brother.
23- Barry Seal - Drug running TWA pilot out of Mena Arkansas, death was no accident.
24- Johnny Lawhorn Jr. - Mechanic, found a check made out to Bill Clinton in the trunk of a car left at his repair shop. He was found dead after his car had hit a utility pole.
25-Stanley Huggins - Investigated Madison Guaranty. His death was a purported suicide and his report was never released.
26- Hershell Friday - Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994 when his plane exploded.
27-Kevin Ives & Don Henry - Known as "The boys on the track" case. Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas airport drug operation. A controversial case, the initial report of death said, due to falling asleep on railroad tracks. Later reports claim the 2 boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks.
Many linked to the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.
THE FOLLOWING PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES/HENRY CASE:
28- Keith Coney - Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck, 7/88.
29- Keith McMaskle - Died, stabbed 113 times,
Nov, 1988
30- Gregory Collins - Died from a gunshot wound January, 1989.
31- Jeff Rhodes - He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in April 1989.
33- James Milan - Found decapitated. However, the Coroner ruled his death was due to "natural causes".
34- Jordan Kettleson - Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup truck in June 1990.
35- Richard Winters - A suspect in the Ives / Henry deaths. He was killed in a set-up robbery July 1989.
THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD:
36 -Major William S. Barkley Jr.
37-Captain Scott J. Reynolds
38-Sgt. Brian Hanley
39-Sgt. Tim Sabel
40-Major General William Robertson
41-Col. William Densberger
42-Col. Robert Kelly
43-Spec. Gary Rhodes
44-Steve Willis
45-Robert Williams
46-Conway LeBleu
47-Todd McKeehan
Quite an impressive list!
HILLARY FOR PRESIDENT? SURELY YOU JEST !!
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02/14/2007 02:31:00 PM · #75 |
Just remind me never to work on anything, around, or within 50 miles of that clan. They must me jinxed or cursed or something. ;)
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