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02/03/2007 10:52:25 PM · #76 |
Hijacking my thread (My son is in Iraq in General Discussion). Posting links to deragatory websites that are anti-military,that have no credible standing and warning any passers by that a career in the military is a bad choice is HARDLY being peaceable.
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02/03/2007 10:57:55 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
::sigh::
May I ask what causes the OP such an aversion to our American military?
((BTW OP - i have literally caused the inside of my mouth to bleed, in order to ask that with politeness and respect so, please, if you don't mind, allow me the same courtesy with your response...)) |
The military is for killing people. I have an aversion to that. Even if it is necessary sometimes, it is only natural that I should have an aversion to it. When a lawyer joins the ACLU, I don't see a thread celebrating what he is doing for my freedom, yet he is doing far more for my freedom than any soldier in Iraq. |
I'm afraid your answer is only partial... you stated that 'the military is for killing people' - this is not entirely true, only a by-product of the military's function and purpose. As written, your statement comes across as 'young people, DON'T join the military because you will be forced to kill people!" that may not have been your intent, but nonetheless could be construed as such
Let me be clear on a few points:
1. I fully support anyone's right to disagree with our governments decisions, as it is the foundation of this entire country.
2. I feel very strongly that the average individual making up our U.S. forces is a good and honorable person who works hard to help ALL people. Because of this, I tend to answer quite passionately in defense of those indivuals and the careers they fulfill.
3. If I have stated any items incorrectly, or wrongfully accused anyone, then I hereby apologize... however, i do not recall having 'called' anyone anything, and recognize that no one has wronged me personally, either.
Quite enough for now - I would still agree to disagree, have that cup of (something warm & relaxing), and let this cool off before anyone else's feelings / pride are hurt. |
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02/03/2007 11:19:13 PM · #78 |
Brad and Ross, thanks for the sentiment. I knew I was stepping into a hornet's nest and fully expected to get stung. I just wanted to air my point of view. You might think it's obvious to a young person, and you might think that a military recruiter is going to present a balanced picture. But I don't think that. Thus this thread.
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02/03/2007 11:31:05 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Brad and Ross, thanks for the sentiment. I knew I was stepping into a hornet's nest and fully expected to get stung. I just wanted to air my point of view. You might think it's obvious to a young person, and you might think that a military recruiter is going to present a balanced picture. But I don't think that. Thus this thread. |
I agree that the "balanced picture" may not be portrayed by the military recruiter, which is unfortunate, but most people will likely seek out other information.
However, with regard to the "obvious to a young person," an 18 year old has the ability to consent for medical procedures (in certain circumstances 14 year olds can consent for their own surgical procedures), can get married without parental consent, is tried in adult courts of law, and (other than alcohol consumption) is considered an adult. As an adult, they have the right to make decisions about these things. Do they understand things the same way they will when they are 30? Probably not, but they either competent to understand (and thus can sign up for the military on their own), or they are not competent to understand. |
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02/03/2007 11:36:38 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by BakerBug:
There are people in this world that hate you because of your beliefs, |
indeed, and many of them seem to be on this thread. |
Personally, I don't hate you... I can't you see since I don't know you. My participation in this discourse was solely to bring to light the fact that your views seemed skewed due to a personal bias against the military.
I may have been mistaken, but viewed from my perspective, your comments could readily be interpreted as being condescending, and seemed to suggest that people who wish to enlist in the military are all ill-informed and need to be protected.
You are indeed entitled to your opinions, but I would hasten to point out that your initial approach in this instance was bound to raise the hackles of some and generate some negative comments.
Just a thought.
Ray
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02/03/2007 11:54:38 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
you might think that a military recruiter is going to present a balanced picture. But I don't think that. Thus this thread. |
No one in their right mind would think that, just as no one would expect a Ford dealership to give them an honest evaluation of their cars versus those of Honda or GM.
Millitary recruiters' job is to recruit people for the millitary. Duh.
I find it very hard to believe you can live in the US of today and not have heard a whole lot of information about what an awful institution the American millitary is (and you can define awful however you like) from mass media, the movies, vets and the rumor mill in general before stepping into the recruiter's office.
Before hating your own country became vogue, a millitary career was viewed with respect. Personally I have more respect for someone who decides to sign up and pursure a career in the services than someone who parties their way through college, takes a position with some company that is likely committing all sorts of atrocities socially and enviornmentally, and then spends the rest of their pathetic life in the pursuit of the latest blinking piece of electronic shit they see advertised on TV each night.
Misguided or not, at least there's a good chance that someone who pursues a life in the millitary is motivated by something more substantial than consumerism and self gratification.
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02/03/2007 11:57:19 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
What I would like to understand is what is the final goal of all this action in Iraq, and how that will benefit the American people. |
Our troops in the middle of the world's largest oil producing region. Pray that your leaders are smart enough to continue to tag along. |
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02/04/2007 01:09:19 AM · #83 |
Originally posted by asimchoudhri:
However, with regard to the "obvious to a young person," an 18 year old has the ability to consent for medical procedures (in certain circumstances 14 year olds can consent for their own surgical procedures), can get married without parental consent, is tried in adult courts of law, and (other than alcohol consumption) is considered an adult. As an adult, they have the right to make decisions about these things. Do they understand things the same way they will when they are 30? Probably not, but they either competent to understand (and thus can sign up for the military on their own), or they are not competent to understand. |
I'm beffudled by this and many other irrelevant arguments on this thread. Where did I say an 18 year old should not make a decision? I was contributing some information to that decision.
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02/04/2007 01:14:39 AM · #84 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by asimchoudhri:
However, with regard to the "obvious to a young person," an 18 year old has the ability to consent for medical procedures (in certain circumstances 14 year olds can consent for their own surgical procedures), can get married without parental consent, is tried in adult courts of law, and (other than alcohol consumption) is considered an adult. As an adult, they have the right to make decisions about these things. Do they understand things the same way they will when they are 30? Probably not, but they either competent to understand (and thus can sign up for the military on their own), or they are not competent to understand. |
I'm beffudled by this and many other irrelevant arguments on this thread. Where did I say an 18 year old should not make a decision? I was contributing some information to that decision. |
I thought that by your statement "You might think it's obvious to a young person" you were suggesting that the 18 year olds were less likely to understand what they were getting into. |
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02/04/2007 01:22:42 AM · #85 |
Originally posted by asimchoudhri:
I thought that by your statement "You might think it's obvious to a young person" you were suggesting that the 18 year olds were less likely to understand what they were getting into. |
Am I mad or condescending to think an 18 year old might need some more information before making this decision? I believe that anyone at any age is capable of being ignorant of anything.
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02/04/2007 01:27:44 AM · #86 |
I had to laugh when I read the original post. It was presented almost like some kind of exposee of secrets that most people considering the military wouldn't ever be aware of. That's ridiculous. If someone is thinking about joining, and is not aware of those things you mention...well, I can't even finish that statement, I can't even possibly begin to fathom any person not realizing that. "You mean, the military might have to perform in.....MILITARY functions???? Oh MY Gosh!!!"
I was in the Navy 9 years. Was in during the first Gulf war. No, I didn't see combat, a small percentage of troops do in these modern times. Most roles are of a technical, and supportive nature. Was there negative things in those 9 years? Sure! But heck, I totally hate my current job! Was there good things in those 9 years? You bet! I don't recall any time in my life that was all good with not at least some bad in there. I could spend all night telling you of bad things about those 9 years, but I could spend just as long telling you of good things, things that I would never have seen, or learned, or experienced otherwise. One thing that I could probably not ever to be able to explain to anyone though that has not been there, is the feeling from serving that I believe most vets have. You see, when people talk down the military, or the flag, or our country, etc, do I like it? Hell NO! It turns my stomach sour. But...I respect their right to say it, I love them dearly, I feel good, I am proud, I am honored, to have given up 9 of the best years of my life, ready to die if that was necessary, to give up some little 'freedoms' of my own for a few years, to make sure that they have that privilage, that choice, that ability to say or do what they feel like, even though it is a spit in the eye to folks like me.
So say and do whatever you like man, and enjoy yourself. ......and......... you're welcome.
taterbug :-)
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02/04/2007 04:44:29 AM · #87 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Our troops in the middle of the world's largest oil producing region. Pray that your leaders are smart enough to continue to tag along. |
Thankfully my 'leaders' are keeping their distance from the quagmire in Iraq. We're not in the coalition of the willing. Public opinion in this country is strongly against the war. There was even uproar when it was discovered that US war planes were landing here to refuel. Our media is obviously misleading us.
But if the US wants to continue to pour troops into the region to keep the price of my petrol down, then great. Carry on. |
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02/04/2007 10:25:18 AM · #88 |
You want a "veteran's" opinion, here you go.
I've been in the Army for 5 and a half years. I was in the delayed entry program between even before my Senior Year of high school. My "trained" job is "Chemical Operations Specialist" I am supposed to deal with all stuff WMD related or Nuclear Biological and Chemical(NBC - or as my unit calls it: "No Body Cares") It's an out of date job, but that is another topic for later.
I've taken two trips to Iraq. Once with the attached to the 3rd ID for the invasion of Iraq, as a 19 year old kid. It was fun as hell. I was near the front, but not in the shit. I spent 111 Days there. I got a fat paycheck and that was about it. Things were calm then. Returned to Ft. Hood and less than nine months later I was going back to Iraq with the 1st Cav Division.
With in the first month of taking over our sector this all happened:
1) Perform first aid on one of my best friends - He was hit by shrapnel and burned severely on the face by a Rocket Propelled Grenade(RPG)
2) My convoy was "professionally" ambushed and all roads were closed. We had to spend the rest of the night at another post, and then return to our post in the morning only to reload/refuel and go back out on patrol.
3) My Battalion lost 3 Soldiers in two different events.
Then things quieted down. Until November 17. I was serving as a gunner on a HMMWV. Securing the District "City Council" building so the bomb squad(EOD) could dispose of a rocket that hit the building but didn't explode. When they do the controlled detonation everyone has to take cover. I was working my way into my vehicle when I was struck in the chest by a RPG. It had ricocheted off the back hatch of the HMMWV and was deflected under the gun shield, right into my vest. Not to go into details, the vest saved my life, but a lot was screwed up underneath. I was evacuated to Walter Read Medical Center where I spent most of December recovering. I made it home on the 23rd.
Enough back story here is my opinion: I did join the Army for collage money. I picked a "Safe" job so i would not have to see Combat, but I did and now am a stronger person for it. I have learned to take life one day at a time. So when I look at the Army I see that I've had good days, and I've had bad, I've had Great day, and not so great days. I've had more good days then bad so I can say with good conscious that my time in the Army has been good, even great. I have the privilege of working directly with my Battalion Commander and Command Sergeant Major and they have 18 and 28 years of service. They both say, "The Army is easy... You only need to know three things. 1) Be where your supposed to be, when you need to be there. 2) Do what you are told, 3) Be damn good at your job"
If I knew when I enlisted all that I would go through, and would have to do it all again, I would not hesitate. I am proud of my service, and happy to serve with all branches. I wish those over seas now the best of luck and that they stay safe. When I am thanked for what I do, Iâm usually at a loss for words. So my usual response is âNo, Thank you for your supportâ That is all we need. |
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02/04/2007 11:13:15 AM · #89 |
Robert, Thank You! I can't put into words how proud I'm of you and our men & women putting there life in front of all the political crap. I needed a little insight with my son who has a big chance of going over there once trained in the medical field.
It really blows me away when I hear that we are over there just for the oil. Do people really think one country controls the price of oil. Have you ever heard of OPEC, If I'm not mistaken there is eleven international country which controls the price of oil. What I hear mostly is about our troops and our loses. Does anybody care about the innocent men, women & children being abducted/killed. The loses of the good people in that nation never seems to be a topic. I'm going to stop. Not interested in a debating or trying to change anybodyâs opinion. All I have to say, God Bless our troops, I support them 100%. |
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02/04/2007 11:55:29 AM · #90 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Thankfully my 'leaders' are keeping their distance from the quagmire in Iraq. We're not in the coalition of the willing. Public opinion in this country is strongly against the war. There was even uproar when it was discovered that US war planes were landing here to refuel. Our media is obviously misleading us.
But if the US wants to continue to pour troops into the region to keep the price of my petrol down, then great. Carry on. |
Ok, I had to respond John. Its country like yours I canât believe. How quickly you forget. The US has supported and backed your country for ever. Just in financial support alone, 18.5 billion dollars just in 2005 alone and what 20% of exported goods to the US. Not to mention the military technology weâve given you. I look at the US as the peace keepers of humanity. Countries like yours just step back, in time of needed support. The funny thing is, if you needed us we would be there for you.. â¦Shitâ¦Iâm done.
Message edited by author 2007-02-04 14:20:47. |
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02/04/2007 12:45:38 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by ace flyman:
Originally posted by jhonan:
Thankfully my 'leaders' are keeping their distance from the quagmire in Iraq. We're not in the coalition of the willing. Public opinion in this country is strongly against the war. There was even uproar when it was discovered that US war planes were landing here to refuel. Our media is obviously misleading us.
But if the US wants to continue to pour troops into the region to keep the price of my petrol down, then great. Carry on. |
Ok, I had to respond. Ray. Its country like yours I canât believe. How quickly you forget. The US has supported and backed your country for ever. Just in financial support alone, 18.5 billion dollars just in 2005 alone and what 20% of exported goods to the US. Not to mention the military technology weâve given you. I look at the US as the peace keepers of humanity. Countries like yours just step back, in time of needed support. The funny thing is, if you needed us we would be there for you.. â¦Shitâ¦Iâm done. |
Gee ACE, don't let the fact that I didn't proffer those comments stop you from making all kinds of misguided and erroneous statements about my country. You might want to re-check some facts before making accusing statements of this ilk.
As an aside, you might want to take the time to read the comments I actually did make on the subject matter...you outlook might undergo a slight adjustment. Sorry ACE, but in this instance you have the wrong target in your sights.
Ray
Message edited by author 2007-02-04 12:53:34. |
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02/04/2007 12:52:10 PM · #92 |
Sorry Ray....Facts came from Google off a site I believe generated from Ireland....No hard feelings.
Message edited by author 2007-02-04 15:41:23. |
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02/04/2007 12:56:20 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by ace flyman:
Sorry Ray....Facts came from Google off a site I believe generated from your country....No hard feelings. |
No offense taken, but do email me the Google site as I would be particularly interested in what it says. I will readily accept the figures as they relate to export and the like, but would dispute that we receive aid from the USA in the conventional sense.
Ray. |
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02/04/2007 02:05:43 PM · #94 |
Ray, I was totally wrong to isolate Ireland out. Iâm not a political major. Facts on the numbers are correct. Itâs easy to throw money at problems, yet not be able to solve the real issues. Iâve been reading on some of the adversities Ireland has gone through. I should really stay out of the political game. To take information out of context is a big problem for every one. When my wife gets home Iâll have her find the site I was on. It had a lot of cool history information on Ireland. (By the way, Love the beer). Itâs countries like Canada, mine and many, many others who will hopefully keep us from Armageddon.
Message edited by author 2007-02-04 14:48:34. |
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02/04/2007 02:14:11 PM · #95 |
| ermm.. This is getting a bit confusing. Just to set the record straight; Ray is from Canada, I am from Ireland. The original quote you responded to was mine. |
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02/04/2007 02:24:00 PM · #96 |
oops....And we wonder why the state of world is in its current condition...Lol. Went back and corrected. Another example why I should stay out. Yet I do believe some of my comments hold some merit
edit; Ray, so sorry, none of my comments were directed at Canada.
Originally posted by jhonan:
ermm.. This is getting a bit confusing. Just to set the record straight; Ray is from Canada, I am from Ireland. The original quote you responded to was mine. |
Message edited by author 2007-02-04 14:46:46. |
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02/04/2007 03:18:37 PM · #97 |
I don't think anyone would wish CalliopeKel's son anything but best wishes for a safe return from Iraq. Having had several relatives and friends serve tours there, I understand how nervewracking it is - and it must be all that much more so for a mother facing her son's deployment.
However, CalliopeKel's post did more than request well wishes for her son. It came across as advocating the military as an excellent career choice. In these current times, advocating military service is tantamount to advocating the US military presence in Iraq. And whether or not you agree with that presence (these threads show just what a polarizing issue it is), it is difficult to argue that political beliefs are not intertwined in the issue. In fact, there is nothing much less political than the current war.
It is natural to expect that a thread advocating the US military would be met with posts from those who oppose the current campaign in Iraq. Anyone who expresses a strong viewpoint on such a contraversial subject is poking a hornet's nest. But in this case, Posthumous was actually not the one who originally put his viewpoint out there - it was CalliopeKel who did so.
Again, no one (least of all myself) wishes for anything more than a safe return of CalliopeKel's son and all the other servicemen and women out there. But there is nothing wrong with questioning the prudence of the current military campaign - or even some of the practices of the military. I actually believe Posthumous tried to keep it civil. I hope everyone else will respect his view as well. |
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02/04/2007 03:39:12 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by noraneko:
advocating military service is tantamount to advocating the US military presence in Iraq. |
I strongly disagree with this statement.
You may choose to link these two issues together, but you are making a broad assumption that may not be accurate.
I think I have made it clear in my previous posts, that the military does not make policy. This is the job of our elected leaders. It is very easy to support the military, and military service, without supporting the decisions made by elected officials. |
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02/04/2007 04:42:04 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by ace flyman:
Countries like yours just step back, in time of needed support. The funny thing is, if you needed us we would be there for you.. â¦Shitâ¦Iâm done. |
You know what, for the past 5 years I've not met one person in this country who supports the War in Iraq. One reason I can think of is that the objectives of the war have not been presented clearly. When you have everyone saying the war is about oil (and I know it's not as simple as that) but the only response you see coming from Mr Bush is that it's about 'freedom', 'democracy' and 'our way of life', then I'm afraid the oil argument sounds more logical.
And perhaps our media is to blame as well. All we've seen coming out of Iraq for the past 5 years is death and destruction. I often hear the retort that there is reconstruction going on, and that people are better off now then they were under Saddam. But again, it just doesn't add up.
If the US wants support from other countries (which they seem to be rapidly losing at the moment) then perhaps they should start selling us the real reasons for the war, and where they see it all ending. At this point I'd even be happy to support it if it was all about our western oil-based economy. But please stop with this nonsense about fighting terrorists over there so you don't have to fight them at home. |
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02/04/2007 05:05:10 PM · #100 |
I'm giving up my crusade. My link on CalliopeKel's thread was deleted. The Site Council has decided that saying the Military is a great career option is not inflammatory political speech, but speaking against joining the military during a time of war is inflammatory political speech. Perhaps they are right, since what makes speech inflammatory and political are the assumptions of the prevailing culture that the speech occurs in. This may give you a better idea of what the prevailing culture is at DPC.
I would love for the veterans to start a vets-only thread speaking honestly and openly about their experiences, without trying to influence potential candidates one way or the other. Robert Myers' account of actual combat is just the sort of truth that I would like to see in the General Discussion forum, side by side with the threads that cheer on not just the human beings wearing the uniforms, but the millitary institution itself.
And yes, I know that Mr. Myers' political beliefs are not the same as mine. I am not an ideologue. That is not what this is about.
Message edited by author 2007-02-04 17:05:43.
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