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02/03/2007 08:46:47 PM · #51 |
About military recruiters.
I had the distinct pleasure of meeting my sons recruiter (whom he sought out himself). He came to my home and answered every question I could conjure up with what I felt was brute honesty (no frills, no cupcakes). My son has been in the corps over a year now, and everything that is happening, we were told about ahead of time. My son knew exactly what to expect, and we have had nothing but honesty and loyalty from dealing with his recruiter who happens to be over in IRAQ right now, and is a foot soldier (and also a Sargent).
I cannot speak for any other recruiters, but ours showed exemplary behavior and had he not, I would have been able to put the brakes on that whole operation trust me (Mom was the one he had to sell on that deal).
I will also say, that anyone in any job is capable of wrongdoing, deceit etc., to gain advancement. Any individual attempting behavior that is unbecoming a United States Military enlistee does not reflect the ideas and beliefs of the Military as a whole and therefore cannot be judged as such.
That would be like me saying people from NJ are assholes based on your performance here posthumous.
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02/03/2007 08:46:58 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
To re-focus a bit, does anyone want to comment on the recent stories about lies, fraud, and deception perpetrated by military recruiters? |
I'll take that - it's nothing new and nothing different than a percentage of used car salesmen, or timeshare salesmen, etc. There are people in every industry who lie to meet their sales quotas.
And to your inevitable reply - "Yeah, but in this case, the ones being lied to may be killed as a result" - If anyone joining the military is told by a recruiter that there is no chance of getting killed and believes it, they are probably expendable anyway. ...ok kidding about that, but you get my drift.
It was, is and probably always will be an ongoing joke in the military about the various things "my recruiter promised me", but my experience was that if you got it in writing, the military held up their end of the agreement if you held up yours. |
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02/03/2007 09:13:14 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by BradP:
I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. |
You're scaring me.
It seems that you're basically saying that we shouldn't question the manner in which the military conducts itself. What about Abu Ghraib? Our torture of prisoners there violated the Geneva Conventions. Should we just shut the hell up and turn a blind eye to it, because we should be so thankful for our freedom that we're willing to throw our values and human decency out the window?
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02/03/2007 09:29:06 PM · #54 |
Nah - was just a powerful moment in the movie really.
It was more about the "rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide" part of it I should have said.
We should all question things. We should all remember to think for ourselves.
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02/03/2007 09:34:14 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by BradP:
We should all question things. We should all remember to think for ourselves. |
I thought that wasn't allowed in the military ... |
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02/03/2007 09:40:24 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by BradP:
We should all question things. We should all remember to think for ourselves. |
I thought that wasn't allowed in the military ... |
For those of us outside the military, and especially those considering enlisting (which is what the OP is getting at), things should be questioned and evaluated. However, the military is not a democracy, just as an operating room is not a democracy. Never has been, never will be, and probably shouldn't be. The goal is for it to be a well oiled machine, with a predefined hierarchy.
Edit: In the military (and in an OR) everyone can share their opinion, but the hierarchy determines the who makes the decisions. Those decisions can be made taking into account other people's opinions, but those decisions will generally be the policy.
Message edited by author 2007-02-03 21:44:32. |
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02/03/2007 09:42:24 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by BradP:
We should all question things. We should all remember to think for ourselves. |
I thought that wasn't allowed in the military ... |
again, not true. In fact, military members are specifically given the power to stop another member (even their higher-ups) who is acting against military law (the Uniform Code of Military Justice, AND the Geneva Convention). |
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02/03/2007 09:49:38 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by asimchoudhri:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by BradP:
We should all question things. We should all remember to think for ourselves. |
I thought that wasn't allowed in the military ... |
For those of us outside the military, and especially those considering enlisting (which is what the OP is getting at), things should be questioned and evaluated. However, the military is not a democracy, just as an operating room is not a democracy. Never has been, never will be, and probably shouldn't be. The goal is for it to be a well oiled machine, with a predefined hierarchy.
Edit: In the military (and in an OR) everyone can share their opinion, but the hierarchy determines the who makes the decisions. Those decisions can be made taking into account other people's opinions, but those decisions will generally be the policy. |
No workplace is a democracy.
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02/03/2007 09:52:58 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by asimchoudhri:
For those of us outside the military, and especially those considering enlisting (which is what the OP is getting at), things should be questioned and evaluated. However, the military is not a democracy, just as an operating room is not a democracy. Never has been, never will be, and probably shouldn't be. The goal is for it to be a well oiled machine, with a predefined hierarchy. |
Well put into words, in a simplistic manner.
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02/03/2007 10:02:20 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by BakerBug:
There are people in this world that hate you because of your beliefs, |
indeed, and many of them seem to be on this thread.
Let's see, so far in this thread I've been accused of
-"speak[ing] for those grown men and women who decide they want to join the military"
-thinking that the youth are "unwashed masses" that need my guidance.
-having an "addled mind"
-being "incredibly naive"
-saying "laughable things"
-being an "asshole"
-thinking all war is wrong
-wanting to leave the U.S. defenseless and unprotected
All because I wanted to show that joining the military is not an uncontroversial, black-and-white, all-good proposition. And that goal was met with all the bile that rose up against me when I dared to suggest it.
And since I'm perfectly willing to let a young mind read this thread and come to his/her own solutions (if he/she can find it in the Rant forum), and since I have no interest in defending the straw men that are being attacked here, that's all I have to say for now.
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02/03/2007 10:03:41 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
My thanks to the vets who have contributed so far, though I would prefer to hear from vets who've actually been to war.
And  CalliopeKel, if you think conservative families with a tradition of military service are the only people joining the military, you are sadly mistaken. Some people take it as an economic lifeline. |
yes, you HAVE been hearing from veterans of war - ten years of service, thank you - maybe you will realize that your ASSUMPTION of something so miniscule as our status as veterans, could mean you are incorrect about other things as well...
though i doubt any of us can get through the obvious years of misinformation you have received, i would still appreciate my original question being answered by the OP... if you have the right to ask us to defend our opinions (which we have EARNED), then you could at least have the courtesy to answer our requests.
Might I add that the pride realized by many of our nation's finest, comes from thousands of man hours per MONTH spent on humanitarian missions throughout the world. Hell, I personally spent an average of 5-10 hours per WEEK helping the local community, including aid to the elderly (meals on wheels), school children (FREE network infrastructure installations during the internet's infancy), low income families (Habitat for Humanity)... 5 hours x 52 weeks x 10 years = what the hell have YOU done for our nation?
Maybe you should spend your time finding out what things the military does for the GOOD of our nation, instead of blasting those of us who have been there (and future members) for things you quite obviously neither understand, nor appreciate. |
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02/03/2007 10:06:14 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
::sigh::
May I ask what causes the OP such an aversion to our American military?
((BTW OP - i have literally caused the inside of my mouth to bleed, in order to ask that with politeness and respect so, please, if you don't mind, allow me the same courtesy with your response...)) |
It seems to me he has been nothing but polite and restrained in all his posts, without resorting to injuring himself. |
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02/03/2007 10:09:34 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by BradP:
We should all question things. We should all remember to think for ourselves. |
I thought that wasn't allowed in the military ... |
again, not true. In fact, military members are specifically given the power to stop another member (even their higher-ups) who is acting against military law (the Uniform Code of Military Justice, AND the Geneva Convention). |
Perhaps you should send a reminder of that to the officers who are trying Lt. Ehren Watada. |
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02/03/2007 10:09:59 PM · #64 |
We should all go stay at a Holiday Inn Express tonight and come back & read this the morning.
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02/03/2007 10:14:22 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by NathanW:
If it wasn't for the military in its infancy we'd all still be English Citizens, or been tossed off the continent by the Native Americans. |
I guess we real North Americans showed those lousy fraudulent North Americans. |
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02/03/2007 10:15:45 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Let's see, so far in this thread I've been accused of
-"speak[ing] for those grown men and women who decide they want to join the military"
-thinking that the youth are "unwashed masses" that need my guidance.
-having an "addled mind"
-being "incredibly naive"
-saying "laughable things"
-being an "asshole"
-thinking all war is wrong
-wanting to leave the U.S. defenseless and unprotected
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I'd say, that based on what you've posted in here, those accusations describe the way you portray yourself well.
Message edited by author 2007-02-03 22:16:50.
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02/03/2007 10:18:01 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I'd say, that based on what you've posted in here, those accusations describe you well. |
Time for a a cup of coffee Spaz.
I'll join you.
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02/03/2007 10:20:39 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Let's see, so far in this thread I've been accused of
-"speak[ing] for those grown men and women who decide they want to join the military"
-thinking that the youth are "unwashed masses" that need my guidance.
-having an "addled mind"
-being "incredibly naive"
-saying "laughable things"
-being an "asshole"
-thinking all war is wrong
-wanting to leave the U.S. defenseless and unprotected
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I'd say, that based on what you've posted in here, those accusations describe the way you portray yourself well. |
That's pretty unfair. (Not to mention just plain nasty.) Taking on an extremely unpopular position because he believes in it, then continuing to defend it reasonably peaceably against an astonishing tirade, is actually quite commendable, no matter what the argument. Dissent is never popular, but is certainly one of the reasons for the existence of the United States. (You may now point out the irony of this statement.) |
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02/03/2007 10:21:54 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
though i doubt any of us can get through the obvious years of misinformation you have received, i would still appreciate my original question being answered by the OP... if you have the right to ask us to defend our opinions (which we have EARNED), then you could at least have the courtesy to answer our requests. |
I wasn't asking for anybody to defend anything. That would be another one of those straw men I was talking about. I was asking for honest accounts of military experience, though I should have said combat experience.
And I already answered your original question.
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02/03/2007 10:25:06 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
No workplace is a democracy. |
There are many worker-owned and/or operated businesses which operate on a pretty democratic basis, perhaps more so than our national government.
Just a few with which I'm familiar are Nabalom Bakery, The Cheese Board Collective, The Rainbow Grocery, and The Berkeley Free Clinic, all of which are more than 20 years old.
Not that I think this would be a particularly effective method for organizing a military force, but it's absurd to think that a top-down hierarchy is the only successful business organizational model.
Message edited by author 2007-02-03 22:27:19. |
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02/03/2007 10:27:43 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
::sigh::
May I ask what causes the OP such an aversion to our American military?
((BTW OP - i have literally caused the inside of my mouth to bleed, in order to ask that with politeness and respect so, please, if you don't mind, allow me the same courtesy with your response...)) |
It seems to me he has been nothing but polite and restrained in all his posts, without resorting to injuring himself. |
Louis, thank you for the levity - we could all apparently use some...
It was never my intent to imply that he had been uncourteous to me, I simply requested that things remain as such... |
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02/03/2007 10:38:39 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by rossbilly:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by BradP:
We should all question things. We should all remember to think for ourselves. |
I thought that wasn't allowed in the military ... |
again, not true. In fact, military members are specifically given the power to stop another member (even their higher-ups) who is acting against military law (the Uniform Code of Military Justice, AND the Geneva Convention). |
Perhaps you should send a reminder of that to the officers who are trying Lt. Ehren Watada. |
tho
If your statement held merit, I would readily agree with you. Unfortunately, that person has indeed gone against the 'rules' of said UCMJ... Had he used the proper channels to appeal his case, things probably would have come out better all around.
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02/03/2007 10:42:54 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Let's see, so far in this thread I've been accused of ---snip--- |
If I was in that group, I apologize. I am my own worst enemy at times, hitting post before walking away and thinking about it, but do stand for what I have said, just didn't mean it to come off personally.
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02/03/2007 10:43:56 PM · #74 |
= It's a commitment that once agreed to cannot be broken without serious consequences. I've made the same committment to marriage and employers. I'm there and I'm reliable. I learned that in the service.
= Once you are in the service, you have no real freedom. Many decisions are made for you without your input. Real freedom is a real vague phrase. Didn't stop me from partying in Virginia, Oklahoma, Okinawa, South Carolina, or Michigan.
= There is the possibility that you could make the supreme sacrifice for your country. Seems preferable to dying from exhaustion on the assembly line to make the shareholders wealthier.
= You have no real privacy, especially in the beginning. Ever tried living in a house with three teenagers?
= The military decides your clothing and your hair style. Hair is overrated, and more employers ought to provide workwear so you don't always have to replace your wardrobe due to work related wear and tear.
= There is the possibility that you might be called upon to kill someone or cause someone's death. You should realize that before you take the oath to protect and defend. |
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02/03/2007 10:50:02 PM · #75 |
Don, I can't answer the combat question myself. I've never been in the military. But, I can tell you that I lost an uncle to Vietnam. When I say lost him I don't mean that he died there. He came home very much alive with no obvious injuries. The injuries were physiological (not sure I spelled that right). He came home a raging alcoholic with severe difficulty sleeping and uncontrollable rage. If you woke him out of a sleep you risked being killed. He was married with two children when he was drafted. He had a great job. He came home such a mess he never really worked again. His wife left him and he never saw those children again. The military refused to give him medical treatment. He died full of tumors (agent orange) at the age of 55.
On the other hand, as we talked about before, my daughter is joining the coast guard. This is more for economic reasons (as one of the things you listed) than a feeling of patriotism. I can't afford to send her to college. But, she will have in writing that she will not ever be required to serve in Iraq. Since we have other (extended) family members in the coast guard, we know this to be true. She will leave there with a career that will see her throughout life. I have pretty much talked her out of the "intelligence" that they want her for back into the medical field that she was originally interested in. When she leaves she will be a certified Nuclear medical technician.
I'm not anti-military even though they did wrong to my uncle. But I am anti-Iraq war.
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