Some basic questions about Christianity

01/31/2007 11:58:01 PM · #29

Just had to throw in my 2 cents about the triune God. I always heard it explained as an egg. There is a shell, whites, and yolk. It is all an egg (God), but has 3 separate parts (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit). Anyway, I though I would throw in that picture.

Also, some people believe that Jesus was crucified mid week and rose on a Saturday. I think this explains it best //www.ucg.org/booklets/JC/dieandlive_crucified.htm. I haven't researched it enough to know exactly, but it should bring on a lively conversation.

Just some additional ideas (amazingly, this is my first post since I am new here, so please go easy on me :-)

02/01/2007 12:02:04 AM · #30

Originally posted by skylercall:

Originally posted by levyj413:
I didn't know that Jesus was considered to be part of God, but rather thought he was a separate being.

Not all Christians believe that way.

The death of Jesus cannot be a sacrificial atonement that transcends time unless he was. And since the Bible says he was, there's not much point in arguing with it.

Modalists believe that God can only be in one state at one time, but that would mean that if the Spirit is now the "mode" of God, there's no-one sitting on the throne of the universe. The vision of the Father, Son, and Spirit was clearly shown at the Baptism of Jesus, and the Bible references the Father, Jesus, and the Spirit as each eternal. This would negate the tempporal/modal position.

Or do you mean Adoptionist? Why did the Angel tell mary God was sending the child?

Arianism? Jesus is referred to in equal to God many, many times.

Tri-theism? Umm, no.

02/01/2007 12:05:18 AM · #31

The foundation for the God of the three relitions is the same. However, I personally believe that when God revealed part of himself to us through Jesus, if we do not accept who Jesus is, then we are denying God (because Jesus makes up who God is). That sounds confusing. But what I am trying to say is that I consider my God (the triune God) to be a very different God from the non-triune God that other religions acknowledge, even though some historical elements are the same.

02/01/2007 12:05:43 AM · #32

Originally posted by WriteHeart:

Just some additional ideas (amazingly, this is my first post since I am new here, so please go easy on me :-)

Hello and welcome!

02/01/2007 12:09:00 AM · #33

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Yes, but it's not Gospel (or good news) because that Testament would put men back under the full yoke of written Law instead of Grace and the Law of the Spirit. Somewhat of a regression if it's a "newer testament". Also, the Koran says much to disagree with the OT, where the NT can be referenced back and forth and agreement can be seen across the ages, and the testaments can be seen in accord when one understands the phases of the covenants that God has initiated with man. The Koran/Kuran is more of an alter-testament.

WriteHeart

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

02/01/2007 12:16:48 AM · #34

Originally posted by klstover:

Originally posted by WriteHeart:
Just some additional ideas (amazingly, this is my first post since I am new here, so please go easy on me :-)

Hello and welcome!

Thank you klstover! I am loving it here. I just got a new DSL for the holidays and want to learn how to take great pictures! I have a very, very long way to go, but I love how the challenges are stretching me and forcing me to learn how my camera works

Being new, I was very curious to see how everyone would handle this thread. Typical communities become very argumentative, or even mean. I am very impressed with everyone's response here. I am glad to be part of such a great group of people.

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

02/01/2007 12:19:28 AM · #35

Originally posted by WriteHeart:

Originally posted by klstover:

Originally posted by WriteHeart:
Just some additional ideas (amazingly, this is my first post since I am new here, so please go easy on me :-)

Hello and welcome!

Thank you klstover! I am loving it here. I just got a new DSL for the holidays and want to learn how to take great pictures! I have a very, very long way to go, but I love how the challenges are stretching me and forcing me to learn how my camera works

Being new, I was very curious to see how everyone would handle this thread. Typical communities become very argumentative, or even mean. I am very impressed with everyone's response here. I am glad to be part of such a great group of people.

Yes, that happens here, too, on occasion, but for the most part, everyone tries to behave themselves. :)

skylercall

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

02/01/2007 12:27:40 AM · #36

Originally posted by levyj413:

Originally posted by skylercall:

Originally posted by levyj413:
I didn't know that Jesus was considered to be part of God, but rather thought he was a separate being.

Not all Christians believe that way.

Care to elaborate?

I believe in God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. I believe that they are each three separate beings.

In John 17:21-23 Jesus prays to God the Father that his apostles might be one even as they (God the Father and Jesus Christ) are one. I do not believe that he prayed for them to become one single person but each be together as separate beings.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

02/01/2007 12:32:34 AM · #37

Originally posted by skylercall:

Originally posted by levyj413:

Originally posted by skylercall:

Originally posted by levyj413:
I didn't know that Jesus was considered to be part of God, but rather thought he was a separate being.

Not all Christians believe that way.

Care to elaborate?

I believe in God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. I believe that they are each three separate beings.

In John 17:21-23 Jesus prays to God the Father that his apostles might be one even as they (God the Father and Jesus Christ) are one. I do not believe that he prayed for them to become one single person but each be together as separate beings.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

so you believe in the trinity or no? Those verses seem to indicate the three-in-one to me.

daboardergirl

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

02/01/2007 12:33:28 AM · #38

Originally posted by skylercall:

Yes...meaning "one" in purpose rather than physical form.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

02/01/2007 12:36:22 AM · #39

Originally posted by klstover:

The difference is, and what I think you're trying to say is, that Jesus and the Spirit combine to make this so much more of a personal and even individual experience. Jesus calls us as siblings, God calls us as children, and the Spirit leads us as individuals. It's not just a set of rules, it's the personal experience of all the facets of God.

Denying Jesus as part of God doesn't make sense in relation to the experience of salvation and Christian faith.

skylercall

Canon EOS-7D

02/01/2007 12:38:51 AM · #40

Originally posted by daboardergirl:

Yes...meaning "one" in purpose rather than physical form.

Exactly!

02/01/2007 12:40:43 AM · #41

Originally posted by skylercall:

Also from John 17:

8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your nameâ��the name you gave meâ��so that they may be one as we are one.

Mos things, when read in context instead of Cherry-picked, start to make sense again.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Nikon

02/01/2007 12:42:39 AM · #42

Originally posted by wavelength:

Jesus and the Spirit combine to make this so much more of a personal and even individual experience. Jesus calls us as siblings, God calls us as children, and the Spirit leads us as individuals. It's not just a set of rules, it's the personal experience of all the facets of God.

Denying Jesus as part of God doesn't make sense in relation to the experience of salvation and Christian faith.

I do agree with this.

levyj413

Apple iPhone 15 Pro Max

02/01/2007 12:44:28 AM · #43

Originally posted by skylercall:

Originally posted by daboardergirl:
Yes...meaning "one" in purpose rather than physical form.

Exactly!

Hmmm ... that brings me back to my original confusion. How is that monotheistic? Which is "the" God above all others? Or are all three believed to be omniscient and omnipotent? When you refer to God, do you mean God or Jesus? Sorry - trying to understand. :)

As an reminder for everyone, and not directed at you, skylercall: this is a thread to discuss specific questions I asked about Christianity. No one is proselytizing or preaching here, and we've had a very pleasant discussion so far. As a Jew, I've just always wondered some stuff about what Christianity means.

Message edited by author 2007-02-01 00:47:16.

daboardergirl

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Nikon

02/01/2007 12:46:05 AM · #44

Originally posted by wavelength:

Originally posted by skylercall:

Originally posted by levyj413:

Originally posted by skylercall:

Originally posted by levyj413:
I didn't know that Jesus was considered to be part of God, but rather thought he was a separate being.

Not all Christians believe that way.

Care to elaborate?

I believe in God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. I believe that they are each three separate beings.

In John 17:21-23 Jesus prays to God the Father that his apostles might be one even as they (God the Father and Jesus Christ) are one. I do not believe that he prayed for them to become one single person but each be together as separate beings.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be cone in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Also from John 17:

8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your nameâ��the name you gave meâ��so that they may be one as we are one.

Mos things, when read in context instead of Cherry-picked, start to make sense again.

Yes...however skylercall was referring to them being one in purpose, as previously stated. As for the definition of "one" in purpose, we believe it can be applied to any verses from John 17.

Message edited by author 2007-02-01 00:46:40.

levyj413

Apple iPhone 15 Pro Max

02/01/2007 12:46:08 AM · #45

Originally posted by wavelength:

Holy Father, protect them by the power of your nameâ��the name you gave meâ��so that they may be one as we are one.

So is God essentially talking to him/herself to show an example to others?

Message edited by author 2007-02-01 00:46:48.

02/01/2007 12:51:24 AM · #46

Originally posted by levyj413:

Originally posted by wavelength:
Holy Father, protect them by the power of your nameâ��the name you gave meâ��so that they may be one as we are one.

So is God essentially talking to him/herself to show an example to others?

I would say so, but also as communion between God and Man occurs most deeply through prayer and meditation. As Jesus had to give up his glorified self to allow that temptation might be real to him, Prayer was his mightiest connection to God. As with all believers (and I believe all men also) the Spirit is speaking to and teaching us at all times if we are open to it.

Further on Jesus being God, I can't get past the finality and authority with which John speaks on the subject.

Originally posted by John 1:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[b]

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of Godâ�� 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Sigma 70-300mm f/4-5.6 APO Macro Super for Canon

02/01/2007 12:55:45 AM · #47

Originally posted by daboardergirl:

Yes...however skylercall was referring to them being one in purpose, as previously stated. As for the definition of "one" in purpose, we believe it can be applied to any verses from John 17.

Yes, but in relation to the reading of John 1, there is no possible way the meaning of what John says is obfuscated unless you're intentionally blinding yourself. While John 17 may have been referencing purpose, John 1 is definitely not speaking of purpose.

nemesise1977

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

02/01/2007 12:56:10 AM · #48

OK Ill chime in :)

Why christians pray in the name of Christ is simple, he pretty much told us to. From the new testement we have

Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Jhn 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].

Jhn 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.

As for the trinity I dont agree with it in a traditional sence.
here is why
God refers to Christ as his Son many times and Christ prays to God. I also dont know of any place where Christ says he is God, if anyone can show me a refrence I would like to see it...Closest I have seen is when Satan tries to Tempt Christ and he quotes an OT verse "you shall not tempt the Lord God." but this is actually completing a scripture that Satan had modified. In the situation He is trying to get Christ to rely on the protection of angels and God if he jumped from a Pennicale to set him free but omited the fact that the scripture was for protection aginst accidents and not that one so go about recklessly jumping from high places. Christ simply completed the scripture (which I think is a paslm)
Next Christ Did say
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

As for the Holy Ghost/Spirit (same thing is just an archaic word VS a more modren one) Christ Said this
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

But other refrences make it quite clear that the Holy ghost is more or less the intangable Sprit of God, Instead of God walking with us and communing with us Like he did with Adam in Edan he sends his sprit to us.

So Christ was a physical Cchild Of God imbued since his conception with the Spirit of God sent to teach Humanity about God and his plans for mankind and a diffrent way to get salvation from our Sins and God wanting a closer more personal relationship with every one of his creations while also being the ultimate scarfice for our sins hence the name "lam of God" and the verse "By his stripes we are healed".
God is well God, the I am that I am.
Holy Ghost/spirit is the Spirit of God dewlling among and within us.

The concept of the Trinity was not really introduced until like the 2nd or 3rd century church as a way to illistrate a connection between the 3 entities and made Famous by St Patrick using an example of a Shamrock being 3 leaves of the same plant. This story and the popularity of St Patrick was later used by Catholic hiarchey at the time to help convert pagen Celts to christ by making a holiday for him which Falls during Lent and many locations allow for Breaking lent for St Patricks day which is why we have the saying "Everybodys Irish on St Paddys" Basicaly a warm freinldy Irish and Catholic way of join the Party!!

About the Verse in the song...well it is based off scriptue it it self is not a peice of faith or something to base faith off of. But best I understand it is the star appeared first in the east and night after night it appeared in a diffrent place and proceeded in a westward motion
leading to the birth place of Christ. I would Liken it in a way to how constelations change position in the night Sky evry night they are in a diffrent spot until they cross the horizon and don't appear until the next year.

Finally a bit of wisdom or so I think. God and Christ did not make Religions, man made them in their vain attempt to make God happy. if the truth shall set us free, then read the holy books of any faith and find for yourself what you think the truth is as it is one thing that no one can really take away from us, I myself chose to follow the teachings of Christ among them that I am not God and not all knowing and do not have the power to decide if someone is walking in the path with God and what their final destination will be. I pray for them all as well as for myself.

hope you manage to read though all this and understand it
and Godspeed

02/01/2007 12:57:14 AM · #49

From the short story "The Last Answer" by Isaac Asimov:

If you were an amoeba who could consider individuaity only in connection with single cells and if you were to ask a sperm whale, made of thirty quadrillion cells, whether it was one or many, how could the sperm whale answer in a way that would be conprehensible to the amoeba?"

That's why this is so difficult to get our heads around... it's just not on the same plane of existance or reality (like another spiritual biggie - eternity).

daboardergirl

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i