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01/11/2007 01:43:33 PM · #626 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
The 'game over' idea is probably the most unacceptable one for us to get our heads around. We are so desperate to hold on to our existence that we find it unthinkable that we should just stop existing. |
It isn't an easy thing to accept. The idea that we hang around in heaven, or as ghosts, or whatever, is very attractive. The sudden cessation of consciousness is very hard to accept. However, from another perspective, everyone dies and I miss relatively few of the dead or their contributions - there is no *need* outside of a personal one for most people to continue in some other state. Our concern stems out of an intense self interest (and perhaps biological imperative) to protect the most valuable thing that we have.
My personal preference is the Shakespearean approach to eternal life: in immortal works, and through my genetic inheritance (though he phrased it more poetically). Now I need to get on and create some immortal works (or some babies!)!
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01/11/2007 02:05:15 PM · #627 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
My personal preference is the Shakespearean approach to eternal life: in immortal works, and through my genetic inheritance (though he phrased it more poetically). Now I need to get on and create some immortal works (or some babies!)! |
But even that isn't immortal. The Earth will cease to exist at some stage. And (if humans haven't already self-destructed) it is only a matter of time before the Universe ceases to exist.
So, this leaves one conclusion. Our existence here on Earth is a meaningless accident. There is no purpose or reason behind our existence.
I mentioned that 'game over' death is hard to accept. But the idea that everything is meaningless is even harder to accept. At that rate every committed atheist should be throwing themselves off tall buildings. |
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01/11/2007 02:11:02 PM · #628 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
the idea that everything is meaningless is even harder to accept. |
Looks like we're back to the beginning...
Originally posted by scalvert:
Regarding your question on the meaning of the universe, why must there be one? Ask yourself this: what is the meaning of life for a gorilla? It would be the pinnacle of arrogance to think that all animals were merely put here to serve humans, particularly when we can drive them to extinction while being "good" Christians (or Muslims or whatever). If they're not here for us, do they have a purpose or their own responsibility for proper moral behavior? After all, it has been shown that social chimpanzees have a sense of "self" and understand the concept of fairness, yet they can also exhibit "evil" behavior, including cannibalism. If their purpose is simply to exist and propogate their species, perhaps evolving to future lifeforms or serving as food for others, would it not also be arrogant to assume that humans are any better? |
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01/11/2007 02:15:59 PM · #629 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by jhonan:
the idea that everything is meaningless is even harder to accept. |
Looks like we're back to the beginning...
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It's just the whole athiesm thing... It's just so... depressing! |
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01/11/2007 02:35:21 PM · #630 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
It's just the whole athiesm thing... It's just so... depressing! |
Sorry about that, but the notion that we're all doomed from birth unless we follow certain written demands isn't exactly cheerful news either. Personally, I'd rather do some good now (where I KNOW it matters) than worry about the remote possibility of a cushy afterlife that only exists for the few practitioners of the correct interpretation of the correct denomination of the correct religion. How many suicide bombers do you think there would be in the Middle East if people weren't so willing to do anything to receive an assumed (but entirely unproven) reward for their actions in an assumed (but also unproven) afterlife? |
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01/11/2007 02:37:01 PM · #631 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
I mentioned that 'game over' death is hard to accept. But the idea that everything is meaningless is even harder to accept. At that rate every committed atheist should be throwing themselves off tall buildings. |
Nope. No need for that. At the risk of introducing much schmaltz, life is just too good for simply throwing in the towel and fizzling out one's consciousness as an act devotion to the belief in nothing. :) Also, there's much satisifaction to be gained from assisting in the ending of others' suffering, even in the simplest and most banal ways. Since one finds oneself in the condition of self-aware consciousness, easing oneself through it by way of enjoying other people's lives ain't so bad. |
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01/11/2007 02:40:42 PM · #632 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by jhonan:
It's just the whole athiesm thing... It's just so... depressing! |
Sorry about that, but the notion that we're all doomed from birth unless we follow certain written demands isn't exactly cheerful news either. Personally, I'd rather do some good now (where I KNOW it matters) than worry about the remote possibility of a cushy afterlife that only exists for the few practitioners of the correct interpretation of the correct denomination of the correct religion. How many suicide bombers do you think there would be in the Middle East if people weren't so willing to do anything to receive an assumed (but entirely unproven) reward for their actions in an assumed (but also unproven) afterlife? |
You are not doomed from birth, and you do not need to follow any rules. Jesus saved you when he died on the cross. |
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01/11/2007 03:20:18 PM · #633 |
Originally posted by boomtap:
You are not doomed from birth, and you do not need to follow any rules. |
Judging from RonB's posts, that kinda depends upon who you ask. At the very least, he appears to suggest that you must believe in Christ in order to be saved (which automatically dooms Amazon tribesmen and others who don't have a Bible to tell them who they're supposed to believe in). Your assertion about rules also reduces the Ten Commandments to the Ten Recommendations. ;-) |
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01/11/2007 03:29:45 PM · #634 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by boomtap:
Looks like the thread finally bit it...wow that was a big one. |
Shannon must be out taking pictures for one of the challenges. Paul, too. |
If only!
I can't even find anything to call the "best" of 2006 : (
I did however get some shots of what I'm pretty sure is a Peregrine Falcon yesterday : )
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01/11/2007 03:56:26 PM · #635 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by boomtap:
You are not doomed from birth, and you do not need to follow any rules. |
Judging from RonB's posts, that kinda depends upon who you ask. At the very least, he appears to suggest that you must believe in Christ in order to be saved (which automatically dooms Amazon tribesmen and others who don't have a Bible to tell them who they're supposed to believe in). Your assertion about rules also reduces the Ten Commandments to the Ten Recommendations. ;-) |
Only those to whom the message of the gospel has been given need to believe in God's Christ ( messiah ). The Amazonian tribesmen are being told even now ( I know this because I have been on two medical / evangelical mission trips to the Amazon myself ). God will judge those who died without having received the message of the gospel by different standards ( e.g. did they believe that there WAS a "God"?, did they seek to understand Him?, did they understand that they did things that their conscience told them were "wrong"?, did they seek to make amends for those acts/thoughts? ). Note: these are just examples of those things that I believe God would judge. Do not, repeat NOT, hold me accountable to itemize/defend all of the things that God will judge when a person has not heard the message of the gospel. That is strictly God's prerogative. But to those to whom the message HAS been given, the New Testament is clear that Christ is the way. |
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01/11/2007 04:10:36 PM · #636 |
Originally posted by RonB:
But to those to whom the message HAS been given, the New Testament is clear that Christ is the way. |
This reminds me of a discussion I once had with a devout Christian. I asked him how he knew that The Bible is the true word of God. He replied "Because it says so in The Bible!"
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01/11/2007 04:12:02 PM · #637 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by boomtap:
Looks like the thread finally bit it...wow that was a big one. |
Shannon must be out taking pictures for one of the challenges. Paul, too. |
If only!
I can't even find anything to call the "best" of 2006 : (
I did however get some shots of what I'm pretty sure is a Peregrine Falcon yesterday : )
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Ah, very nice, Paul. The Peregrine Falcon is truly an example of God's marvelous work in creation. The fastest animal in the world - clocked at a speeds well over 200 miles an hour. I can't imagine that evolution wold lead to a species that requires such speed. Surely the Peregrine would survive just as well diving only half that fast. My response, of course, is that God doesn't create mediocre stuff - He wants us to MARVEL at what He creates. And marvel, I do.
Message edited by author 2007-01-11 16:21:27. |
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01/11/2007 04:20:47 PM · #638 |
Originally posted by Keith Maniac:
Originally posted by RonB:
But to those to whom the message HAS been given, the New Testament is clear that Christ is the way. |
This reminds me of a discussion I once had with a devout Christian. I asked him how he knew that The Bible is the true word of God. He replied "Because it says so in The Bible!" |
And that's true. The problem is that one can only know that that's true if they believe.
That's because Scripture is the inspired word of God and, as such, can only be fathomed when it is illuminated by the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit doesn't occur until one exercises belief. Until one believes, the Bible is just a book. |
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01/11/2007 04:21:10 PM · #639 |
Originally posted by Keith Maniac:
Originally posted by RonB:
But to those to whom the message HAS been given, the New Testament is clear that Christ is the way. |
This reminds me of a discussion I once had with a devout Christian. I asked him how he knew that The Bible is the true word of God. He replied "Because it says so in The Bible!" |
Known as "begging the question". Circular arguments are the only way to defend an indefensible position. |
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01/11/2007 04:22:08 PM · #640 |
Thanks Ron. The nice thing is that whether that bird accompanied Noah or evolved a la Darwin makes not a bit of difference (to me anyway) in being able to appreciate the beauty and complexity of such a marvelous creation.
In a slight bit of irony or poetic justice, for the last 2-3 years there has been a nesting pair of Peregrines atop the corporate headquarters of Pacific Gas and Electric Company, our local mega-utility. In the spring, there's usually an active web-cam covering the nest. |
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01/11/2007 04:22:38 PM · #641 |
Originally posted by RonB:
My response, of curse, is that God doesn't create mediocre stuff ⦠|
Thatâs because you put down bad design, like pseudogenes, to THE FALL. Good design = God. Bad design = THE FALL. You always have an âoutâ. (The same can be said for prayer. God answers prayer with âyesâ, ânoâ or âwaitâ.)
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01/11/2007 04:23:01 PM · #642 |
Originally posted by RonB:
That's because Scripture is the inspired word of God ... |
How do you know that? |
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01/11/2007 04:33:25 PM · #643 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Keith Maniac:
Originally posted by RonB:
But to those to whom the message HAS been given, the New Testament is clear that Christ is the way. |
This reminds me of a discussion I once had with a devout Christian. I asked him how he knew that The Bible is the true word of God. He replied "Because it says so in The Bible!" |
And that's true. The problem is that one can only know that that's true if they believe.
That's because Scripture is the inspired word of God and, as such, can only be fathomed when it is illuminated by the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit doesn't occur until one exercises belief. Until one believes, the Bible is just a book. |
So all I need to do is believe in The Bible, and then it will be clear to me that the Bible is true. Is that what you're saying?
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01/11/2007 04:46:53 PM · #644 |
Originally posted by RonB:
I can't imagine that evolution would lead to a species that requires such speed. Surely the Peregrine would survive just as well diving only half that fast. |
Faster predators can catch prey more easily, so it's an obvious survival advantage. Since the bird is more or less "falling" to achieve that speed, it would need to develop the ability to fly up to a good altitude, enough eye resolution to spot prey at a distance, stereoscopic vision to help coordinate aim, and the strength to pull up from a steep dive. It seems like your imagination is more of a limiting factor than any particular obstacle to the natural development of these features. |
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01/11/2007 04:54:11 PM · #645 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by RonB:
I can't imagine that evolution would lead to a species that requires such speed. Surely the Peregrine would survive just as well diving only half that fast. |
Since the bird is more or less "falling" to achieve that speed, it would need to develop the ability to fly up to a good altitude, enough eye resolution to spot prey at a distance, stereoscopic vision to help coordinate aim, and the strength to pull up from a steep dive. |
In order to maintain air speed velocity, a falcon needs to beat its wings 43 times every second, right?
Sorry, couldn't resist... |
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01/11/2007 05:00:01 PM · #646 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by RonB:
That's because Scripture is the inspired word of God ... |
How do you know that? |
Why, because I believe :-)
If you did, you would, too.
When I read the bible as a youngster, I found it to be an interesting book.
When I read it again ( and again,...) as a believer, I found/find it to be much, much more than just a book.
It's like the difference between getting a chastising letter from your mother and getting a HOWLER from your mother ( for you Harry Potter fans ). There is a BIG difference between reading and experiencing.
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01/11/2007 05:01:55 PM · #647 |
Originally posted by Keith Maniac:
In order to maintain air speed velocity, a falcon needs to beat its wings 43 times every second, right? |
Huh? A falcon doesn't beat its wings at all to achieve that velocity. It soars at a "normal" speed to high altitude, then folds its wings against its body and dives. Am I missing your point? |
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01/11/2007 05:07:04 PM · #648 |
Originally posted by RonB:
There is a BIG difference between reading and experiencing. |
This would sum it up for me. :)
If I had time, I would draw a map of the directions this thread has taken. ...or maybe I'll just get a spirograph. :) |
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01/11/2007 05:08:52 PM · #649 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Keith Maniac:
In order to maintain air speed velocity, a falcon needs to beat its wings 43 times every second, right? |
Huh? A falcon doesn't beat its wings at all to achieve that velocity. It soars at a "normal" speed to high altitude, then folds its wings against its body and dives. Am I missing your point? |
Sorry, I was just kidding. It was a quote from Monty Python and the Holy Grail :)
<slinks back to his corner> |
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01/11/2007 05:11:18 PM · #650 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
.......the beauty and complexity of such a marvelous creation....... |
creation?
Huh? |
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