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10/22/2003 01:11:35 AM · #1 |
Ok, I'm making myself a resolution - like Neuferland, I'm going to add comments to all I vote on, or as many as possible. This may take ages for 'Alone', but what the hey.
Why this sudden resolution? I'm glad you asked...
My 'Alone' submission got pounded in the first hour of voting - around a double handful of votes only, but NONE above 5, and majority below (including at least two 2's - I watched the scores closely). Whilst it may not be a ribbon winner or a top 10, it's a good shot, and it's definitely relevant to the topic - if you go past the 'person sitting alone' idea.
However, not one of these low voters have left a comment as to why. Do you think its a crap shot? Fine, say so! Not on topic? Ask and I'll give you my reasons!
Maybe it is a rotten photo (I'm obviously biased, but I dont agree) - maybe it is off-topic (again, I dont agree) - but if you think so, I'm not going to know why unless you tell me.
sleekr
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10/22/2003 01:55:08 AM · #2 |
| I don't think entrants should be soliciting voters to "Ask" so that they can "give... reasons". The photo and it's title are your means to get your idea across. |
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10/22/2003 01:58:20 AM · #3 |
Agree with you there entirely sleekr, though I don't have the time to comment on all I admit.
The one problem you might be having is that SOME people, I think, only like to leave a comment if it is 100% positive, not even just positive as it is trying to help someone.
Nice comments are always good to see :)
A comment that says "What a crap photo" serves no purpose at all, voting it a "1" says the same thing.
However, a comment that says "This photo is crap because ....." helps you think on it and agree or disagree with the person. "This photo is crap but if you had ...." can equally be very helpful indeed.
I admit I'd be a guilty party to sometimes scoring low but not actually leaving a comment, although in general I tend to not score very low, although there have been the odd exceptions. If I looked at my scoring overall I think I'd see a standard bell curve, but probably skewed towards the higher scores.
Message edited by author 2003-10-22 02:01:55. |
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10/22/2003 02:06:23 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
I don't think entrants should be soliciting voters to "Ask" so that they can "give... reasons". The photo and it's title are your means to get your idea across. |
In an ideal environment, yes, I agree. However, rather than considering how the photographer has interpreted the challenge, voters seem to only be considering how *they* interpret it. And that's not fair to anyone. I'd much prefer to see a range of ideas in challenge entries (and them being scored appropriately) than a couple of hundred cat/flower/insect shots.
In a previous challenge, I've seen someone comment that 'it didnt meed the challenge because of...' - which contradicted the actual challenge wording. That person changed their vote when this was pointed out to them. Just think how many entries in that challenge they may have -low-voted' due to this.
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10/22/2003 02:22:15 AM · #5 |
In response to sleekr's inquiry....
I've looked at the winners and thier scores, and I'm perplexed. Why the 1's and 2's on the top winners? Just curious as to the critical thinking behind the low scores to the top winners and the folks that gave them. I'm not looking to discuss majority idea of beauty. I would love to see or identify the "eye" of some of these top 10 1-givers. Please share. |
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10/22/2003 02:34:15 AM · #6 |
As I have voiced in a previous thread, I can't recall which one ...
I sadly think there is an small, thankfully, element that will vote down a photo to try and further their own. If you vote a 1 for a photo you basically are saying you think it is crap.
Classic example, to me, would be Kiwi's winner in the exposed challenge. It may not be your favorite photo but I'd really love to see anyone justify giving it a 1 or a 2, i.e. they think it is crap. There is certainly no doubt it met the challenge, so that's not an excuse either.
I would really love to know what the person who voted that photo as a 1 thinks would make a 10, or maybe they are so good that they gave 1's and 2's to absolutely everything as they do not meet their standard.
Sorry, but that photo could easily make a top magasine cover .... and someone giving it a 1, well, I can't honestly see a reason other than vote rigging (for want of a better term).
If anyone can explain how someone could see that as a 1 I would love to hear it, maybe I've missed something. |
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10/22/2003 03:00:01 AM · #7 |
i think the ones come from people who don't think the shot meets the challenge. In that case the one has nothing to do with the shot being good or not.
I don't do it that way - but that seems to be how some do it around here...
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10/22/2003 03:16:11 AM · #8 |
I agree in most cases xhoss, but I have seen 1's for challenge winners that so completely fit the challenge that you could almost comment that no imagination was used to meet it.
With the exposed one recently, which incidently had HEAPS of imagination, to me that very clearly does fit the challenge and I would have trouble trying to convince myself otherwise. Most certainly if that one didn't then 75% of entried didn't either. |
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10/22/2003 09:21:55 AM · #9 |
Kiwiness' blue-ribbon entries to the exposed and science challenges are great photos, very creative, and well deserving of their top honors, but to me they didn't meet the challenge as well as other entries. His exposed entry gives the impression of hiding more than exposure (the tool is a roller, not a scraper). The chemical formula for water is well-known outside the realms of science, so his science entry doesn't convey "science" to me (possibly because of my scientific background). I don't give 1's for not meeting the challenge, but some people do and like xhoss I think that is probably the reason for the low scores on these entries.
I didn't get a chance to comment on any entries this past week; just too busy with other things. I'll try to do better this week. I enjoy writing critiques; it just takes too long.
Message edited by author 2003-10-22 09:23:30. |
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10/22/2003 04:51:30 PM · #10 |
I've been trying to vote on all entries in a contest that I vote on. I've also been leaving as many comments as possible. I've made 110 comments since 10/4/03. 75 of those have been marked helpful (that's about 68%). I've voted on 'Irony' and 'Urban Landscapes'. I left many comments on the 'Recipe (Food)' contest even though I couldn't vote (not a member). I don't usually leave a "Nice shot." comment. I try to find at least one thing I like about the image. My problem when leaving comments is that when I can't find anything I like about an image I won't leave a comment. "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." That, however, doesn't mean if I don't leave a comment that I don't like the image.
One of my personal goals is to have 60% or more of my comments to be found helpful. Another goal is to improve my average vote, which is currently low with a 4.8929. (Sorry guys) I think part of that is because the first contest I voted on was 'Irony' and while there were a lot of great images there were a lot that I either didn't like or they were an easy out on the theme. I rarely give 1's or 2's for off theme but I do take at least one point off.
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10/22/2003 05:11:13 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by dr rick:
Kiwiness' blue-ribbon entries to the exposed and science challenges are great photos, very creative, and well deserving of their top honors, but to me they didn't meet the challenge as well as other entries. His exposed entry gives the impression of hiding more than exposure (the tool is a roller, not a scraper). The chemical formula for water is well-known outside the realms of science, so his science entry doesn't convey "science" to me (possibly because of my scientific background). |
Well that was an interesting read. I had a good chuckle thank you. But don't you think you are pushing too much towards a too stricter view of the challenge rules? The roller in my exposed entry was used in a figurative way, rolling OFF paint to reveal what is underneath. In my eyes meeting the challenge, but then again maybe not for some looking at the 1's and 2's I got there.
My H20 photo is, as far as I know, a chemical formula. Chemical formulas are a part of science aren't they? Maybe H2O is known outside of the realms of science, but does that stop it from being science? Maybe dissecting flowers would be more appropriate?
As I said, an interesting read.
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10/22/2003 05:22:29 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by dr rick:
Kiwiness' blue-ribbon entries to the exposed and science challenges are great photos, very creative, and well deserving of their top honors, but to me they didn't meet the challenge as well as other entries. His exposed entry gives the impression of hiding more than exposure (the tool is a roller, not a scraper). The chemical formula for water is well-known outside the realms of science, so his science entry doesn't convey "science" to me (possibly because of my scientific background). I don't give 1's for not meeting the challenge, but some people do and like xhoss I think that is probably the reason for the low scores on these entries.
I didn't get a chance to comment on any entries this past week; just too busy with other things. I'll try to do better this week. I enjoy writing critiques; it just takes too long. |
I think that Kiwi's pictures are well deserving of their ribbons - they are beautiful to look at, AND they are on topic.
Each challenge topic can be interpreted in different ways, some more so, some less, but the main point of the site is photography, not a strict interpretation of a topic. I think it is very interesting to see what different people will see in the different challenge topics, makes you see the world in a different way at times. BUT, the site is about photography, not about producing textbooks for particular topics.
Ursula
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10/22/2003 06:35:44 PM · #13 |
I think that Kiwi's pictures are well deserving of their ribbons - they are beautiful to look at, AND they are on topic.
Each challenge topic can be interpreted in different ways, some more so, some less, but the main point of the site is photography, not a strict interpretation of a topic. I think it is very interesting to see what different people will see in the different challenge topics, makes you see the world in a different way at times. BUT, the site is about photography, not about producing textbooks for particular topics.
Ursula
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That is my philosophy as well, photographic skill/beauty first, topic adherence second.
Message edited by author 2003-10-22 18:38:47. |
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10/22/2003 06:55:44 PM · #14 |
| My "alone" picture also got pounded early. I was sitting at 6.2 and thinking this could be a great start and then I went down to a 5.6 in about 1 hour or less. My picture probably isn't higher than 6.2 but it really took a pounding and I also would like to here why. I am trying to give comments on pictures but can't always get to all of them. My voting has also changed. I do not give out 1's or 2's or even 3's unless they are really struggling in my eyes (it is rare). It's all subjective anyway but a comment here and there would be nice. |
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10/22/2003 07:01:25 PM · #15 |
| Those of you who are complaining about the sudden drop in votes after the first hour or so, I could answer that question quickly and with ease but then I would get a lot of nasty emails for my comment so let me suggest...ask yourself "Who is voting during that time." Then you will understand why your scores are dropping in the first few hours of voting. |
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10/22/2003 07:15:02 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
"Who is voting during that time." |
All the people who were moments earlier waiting with bated breath for the previous contest to end?
I usually get right to voting once I've seen how the last challenge fared. But maybe I'm not picking up the right hint. I'm trying to stay naive of any pseudo-hidden politics. ;)
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10/22/2003 07:29:38 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by LucidLotus:
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
"Who is voting during that time." |
All the people who were moments earlier waiting with bated breath for the previous contest to end?
I usually get right to voting once I've seen how the last challenge fared. But maybe I'm not picking up the right hint. I'm trying to stay naive of any pseudo-hidden politics. ;) |
I guess a large number of those voting in the first couple of hours are people, like me, who aren't based in the North or South American continents. Believe it or not the whole world doesn't work to EST. |
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10/22/2003 07:38:16 PM · #18 |
| The intent of my previous comment was to point out how Kiwi's wonderful photo's might be construed to "not meet the challenge". Like many of you (but unlike a few others), I don't count meeting the challenge very highly when voting, especially when I can easily see how the photos can be construed as meeting the challenge. I gave these photos high scores for their beauty, creativity, and technical excellence. But for the reasons I mentioned, they didn't get any "bonus points" for outstanding exposition of the challenge topic. |
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10/22/2003 08:29:12 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by dr rick:
The intent of my previous comment was to point out how Kiwi's wonderful photo's might be construed to "not meet the challenge". Like many of you (but unlike a few others), I don't count meeting the challenge very highly when voting, especially when I can easily see how the photos can be construed as meeting the challenge. I gave these photos high scores for their beauty, creativity, and technical excellence. But for the reasons I mentioned, they didn't get any "bonus points" for outstanding exposition of the challenge topic. |
Pardon me, but when you say they did not get bonus points for "outstanding exposition of the challenge topic", that still would be according to your own interpretation of the topic. You seem to say at the beginning of your paragraph that you see them as meeting the topic. So, if they meet the topic, why penalize them for not meeting your own criteria for the topic?
Ursula
PS - Pardon me again, if I seem a bit touchy on this issue. I am rather bad at meeting topics, my husband accuses me of interpreting most everything rather loosely, so it's a touchy issue with me. And there's been a lot of what to me seems like bickering about the interpretation of the various topics. I do strongly believe that there are many different ways to looks at most everything in life.
Message edited by author 2003-10-22 20:32:10.
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10/22/2003 09:42:05 PM · #20 |
Correct. According to my own interpretation. Which will be different from other people's. To me, "meeting the challenge" isn't a yes-no determination. Most photos meet the challenge just fine. A few meet it exceptionally well (at least for me); I give extra points for those.
Yes, there are many different ways to look at most everything. That's what makes life interesting. |
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10/22/2003 09:56:14 PM · #21 |
| I completely agree there with Dr Rick. It really isn't a yes/no sort of thing. If you look at most past winners, they do meet the challenge exceptionally well and they have extraordinary shots, that's why they win. Really, I am new to the site and I have liked what I have seen. I made an entry in the "All Alone" contest and I have been tracking my score as well. For just beginning, I am quite content with my 4.56 whatever (I really expected a lot worse). I must say though, the main reason I joined this site was to learn how to make my photography better, which means I am looking for any criticism I can get. Sure it's nice to get a good comment, but I think some of the best commesnt are the ones that say, "I like how you did this, but you could..." sort of thing. So far, out of 92 votes, I have received 1 Comment. I would really really like to know how to improve my photography through what other people have to say. If you think it's crap, just tell me why, it really won't hurt my feelings, because really, the competition is just a side fun thing to do, you know, just to see how you would fair, at least thats what I did. What I am trying to say is, sometimes it would be nice to know how I could improve rather than numbers, the comments (whether good or critical)are worth more to me than the poits or score. |
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