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11/15/2006 04:50:39 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by UNCLEBRO:
I, for one, don't think "trolls" exist.
I think they have been created by the hype and hysteria surrounding people who cannot come to terms with the fact that somebody may actually not like their picture. |
And that's just fine. I don't expect that everyone will like my photo.
But it's not exactly like the people that lowball you will tell you why, either.
That would take decency, courage, honesty, and consideration, which is not apparent in the average 1-2 score, and I think we all know that.
And to be honest, I am not here for a popularity contest......I'm here to learn what I can about photography.
Judge it on composition, color (Except B&W Challenges), whether or not it met the challenge, and the relative merits of it as a picture, not whether or not its subjective value is there for you.
I don't really get anything whatsoever out of knowing that I got a couple of 1s and 2s other than a disdain for the people who have so little concern for constructive analysis of the photography.
Here's a challenge......if you give someone a 1 or a 2......tell 'em why.
And from where I sit, you better have your vote cast on some pretty solid footing as to why it didn't meet the challenge or why it's just a bad picture.
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11/15/2006 05:00:15 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by heathen:
*Exceptions - Los Angeles will produce more highly rated (plastic and oversaturated...err, I mean tan) people, whereas Arkansas will produce many more low rated (soft edges) people* :) |
I think your generalizations are disgraceful and bigoted!
You left out West Virginia in your selection of "soft edges" people.
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11/15/2006 05:05:23 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Here's a challenge......if you give someone a 1 or a 2......tell 'em why. |
Do you think DPC provides a welcoming and inviting environment for those types of explanations? Take a look at the number of threads bashing those votes and the number of threads trashing individual comments. Even you yourself just said that a 1-2 vote lacks decency, courage, honesty, and consideration. People need motivation to go the extra mile and fear of public humiliation or retaliation generally isn't it. |
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11/15/2006 05:26:39 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
If you can't learn from low votes then you cannot take credit for high votes as the numbers are simply pretty things that have no reflection upon skill level thus providing no incentive to excel. That hurt my brain. Maybe we should have a PC all inclusive non-gender, non-racial ribbon that is sensitive to all photos but does not create barriers based upon pet preference. That way nobody feels left out and all photographers are kindred spirits. |
I agree with your basic thinking, except the PC stuff, but IMNSHO, around here, a 3 or a 4 *is* actually a low vote.....you will NOT get anywhere into the top 50 with anything that has a 4 at the front.....even a 4.9999.
By the same token, what has been the highest ever DP Challenge score?
I'd bet the farm that it hasn't been much over an 8 if that.
I agree with whomever it was that says that they basically use a 4 to 7 scale......that's pretty much where I am; I have given a couple of 2s......but they have been DNMC and had other issues as well. And I went with a comment when I did that.
I think everyone here has had that "HOLY SH*T!!!" once or twice when they saw a spectacular pic......even though that *is* a subjective reaction, that's what I want people to do when they see a shot of mine.
I have also only given about a half dozen 10s since I've been here in August.....and I will honestly admit that those votes were subjective.
One of those pics I gave a 10 vote reduced me to tears because of the quality of the shot and the way it affected me, and started a relationship with the photographer, after a comment on it, who is half my age and has talent up the wazoo, and is now a mentor to me.
He didn't get a blue for that shot, he got a yellow, and subjectively, I didn't feel that the first place shot even came close.
But I have learned so much with the one-on-one that I get from him when I send him a pic for critique.....and he lets me have it on what I lack or miss in my shots or processing.
And he's constructive in his critiques......and makes suggestions as to how to do better.
My work here has gotten progressively better.....part of that is because I'm starting to know what to look for in challenges to grade a picture.
That only comes from honest study.
I mostly only vote in the challenges that I enbter and that sucks because I have to grade a lot of pictures better than mine.
I learn a LOT that way!
So.....I learn, I communicate, and I get more than just photography here......it's a whole experience and even with the competitiveness, people bond and help each other.
Which just brings me back to wondering what it is that just makes some people think they can just completely trash someone's efforts without so much as a thought.
Oh, and to the person that talked about wasting his/her time by having to look at it to vote.......remember that maybe the submitter would just as soon you didn't look at all if you're going to have that attitude. People take the time to review your work. If that was the attitude most people use, this site would have imploded a long time ago.
And yeah, I'm a know-nothing neophyte who probably would be wasting your time, but that attitude you expressed certainly isn't any help to my skills as a photographer.
Think about it.....
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11/15/2006 05:29:37 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by mk:
Do you think DPC provides a welcoming and inviting environment for those types of explanations? Take a look at the number of threads bashing those votes and the number of threads trashing individual comments. Even you yourself just said that a 1-2 vote lacks decency, courage, honesty, and consideration. People need motivation to go the extra mile and fear of public humiliation or retaliation generally isn't it. |
May I refer you back to my earlier posts where I stated I'm also known as PollyAnna? 8>)
I just think if there was accountability for votes like that, there'd be less of them.
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11/15/2006 05:34:23 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I just think if there was accountability for votes like that, there'd be less of them. |
Two things to this.
First, both in and outside the DPC world the statement you made is absolutely true. If people feel someone can come up to them later and retaliate against them for their vote, they simply won't vote. This is why voting is always secret.
Second ('second' meaning second point in my response, and approximately the 43,765,432nd time the point has been made in other threads), requiring someone to justify their 1/2/3/4 - whatever cutoff makes you feel good about your photo - is just forcing them to put in words the emotions that ought to be clear by the way they voted in the first place. They hate your picture, it sucks, and they wish you'd find a new hobby. |
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11/15/2006 05:34:36 PM · #57 |
| Like I've said before, If you have an average vote cast of 4.0 or lower, you are saying that "on the average", every picture is a 4 and every picture is sub par. I just can't believe that anyone could think that way. Would these same people be happy if they got all 4's? |
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11/15/2006 05:41:08 PM · #58 |
No that is not what the math is saying. You can't tell what the math is saying because you have no access to the underlying data. That person could have voted 8 on five hundred entries and 1 on five hundred others. And so what if they do think most pictures are sub-par? There's a lot of crap submitted in the challenges. A lot of boring, mundane, I-just-had-to-submit-something, crap that is a complete waste of time to look at. More and more of it too as you can see by the fact that there are 300+ entries in a lot of the challenges now.
Just like people thinking their kid is a super smart, super special little darling - it doesn't mean in someone else's eyes your kid isn't another run-of-the-mill, moronic little runt. If you like your entry, print it out and stick it on the wall. Have your friends over to admire it. Sell it at a show. But don't think other people are in some way malicious or ignorant for not sharing your opinion or, for that matter, sharing what may have been a majority opinion on your shot as represented by the votes it received.
Originally posted by some ass who always retorts:
stuff it routerguy, your average vote is 4.0439 |
Just thought I'd save someone some typing.
Message edited by author 2006-11-15 17:41:50. |
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11/15/2006 05:41:39 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by bmartuch:
Like I've said before, If you have an average vote cast of 4.0 or lower, you are saying that "on the average", every picture is a 4 and every picture is sub par. I just can't believe that anyone could think that way. Would these same people be happy if they got all 4's? |
Ask  agenkin. That's precisely what he does and he seems fine with it.
The good news is that people who have a voting scale skewed so low are voting such across the board, not just on your individual photo. If you follow the scores threads, you'll notice that the "trolls" seem to come in waves. So someone voting on a lower scale just happens to be rolling through the photos just then and hits everyone roughly equally. It all evens out and the good pictures will win and the bad pictures will not, just as it should be.
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11/15/2006 05:48:05 PM · #60 |
Nikonjeb
Yeah, I concur my attitude is a bit sharp at times and is not as productive as it could be. Oh well, this is cyberland and you have no idea whether I even own a camera or even exist. My entity cannot help you with your skills as only you can. The best inspiration someone can get on this site is to ask sincere questions, read tangible discussions and then put that knowledge into practice. Perfect practice will bring results. Photography in of itself is not a group effort but rather a solo pursuit that needs to be honed and learned. Unfortunately, many would expend more energy into validating their crap rather than honestly judging their own work realisticly. Poop is poop no matter how you dress it up. The templates are there, simply look at the top entries in each challenege and you will find where the inspiration should come from .......on a photo site.....at least I believe.
As for the "trolls", maybe there are other issues there and these may be the same people who enjoy kicking puppies. Only they know. Hmmmm
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11/15/2006 06:01:21 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Oh, and to the person that talked about wasting his/her time by having to look at it to vote.......remember that maybe the submitter would just as soon you didn't look at all if you're going to have that attitude. People take the time to review your work. If that was the attitude most people use, this site would have imploded a long time ago.
And yeah, I'm a know-nothing neophyte who probably would be wasting your time, but that attitude you expressed certainly isn't any help to my skills as a photographer. |
You talk like I am handing out 1,2,3's on a grand scale and that I feel like my time is totally wasted with most photos. The times that I give a 1 is extremely rare and when I do I really do feel offended and like my time was wasted. Because when I give a 1, the photo must suck extremely bad or be so DNMC+utter crap. In 99% of those rare cases the other votes agree with me, because those shots end up with an average between 2 and 3.
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11/15/2006 06:13:51 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Unfortunately, many would expend more energy into validating their crap rather than honestly judging their own work realisticly. |
A bit harshly put, but I tend to agree.
I often wonder how people would vote on their own photo in a challenge if they seriously acted like it was not theirs. What comment would they give in that situation? How seriously do they judge their own work before they put it up.
Personally sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. That's why I don't participate in so many challenges. Many times I sit there looking at a finished photo and think: No, it is not what I wanted it to be, it is not good enough, I will not put it up and not participate in this challenge.
And sometimes I do let one trough that I think is not good enough, the one for the Fire II is a fine example.
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11/15/2006 06:43:39 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by Azrifel:
Originally posted by Ivo:
Unfortunately, many would expend more energy into validating their crap rather than honestly judging their own work realisticly. |
A bit harshly put, but I tend to agree.
I often wonder how people would vote on their own photo in a challenge if they seriously acted like it was not theirs. What comment would they give in that situation? How seriously do they judge their own work before they put it up.
Personally sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. That's why I don't participate in so many challenges. Many times I sit there looking at a finished photo and think: No, it is not what I wanted it to be, it is not good enough, I will not put it up and not participate in this challenge.
And sometimes I do let one trough that I think is not good enough, the one for the Fire II is a fine example. |
Look at your entry as a thumbnail on the front page next to the thumbs of the previous week's winners - does your entry really belong in that group? I usually find it quite easy to see the answer.
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11/15/2006 06:53:12 PM · #64 |
| I recently submitted a Vice magazine style tribute picture for a challenge and it is getting hammered. Plenty of 1's I am sure. Damn prudish trolls :P. I considered pulling it but screw it. Its staying, I took It and I like it. This is really a population pleaser competition. Enjoyable but not to be taken seriously. I might even be inclined to make some pleaser's one day... maybe... |
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11/15/2006 06:56:17 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by bmartuch:
Like I've said before, If you have an average vote cast of 4.0 or lower, you are saying that "on the average", every picture is a 4 and every picture is sub par. I just can't believe that anyone could think that way. Would these same people be happy if they got all 4's? |
Ask agenkin. That's precisely what he does and he seems fine with it.
The good news is that people who have a voting scale skewed so low are voting such across the board, not just on your individual photo. If you follow the scores threads, you'll notice that the "trolls" seem to come in waves. So someone voting on a lower scale just happens to be rolling through the photos just then and hits everyone roughly equally. It all evens out and the good pictures will win and the bad pictures will not, just as it should be. |
Hey Rebecca, I'm not saying these things because I get 1's on my photos. I'm sure that everyone does. If someone thinks my shot is garbage, feel free to give me a 1. It would be nice if they said why though. I know there are some shots that I think are 10's and other people think they are 1's. What bothers me is when some people give them to everyone. I'm sorry but I don't feel that that many pictures are THAT bad. Yes some are not very good but I'd say that most of them fall between 4-7, not 2-5. |
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11/15/2006 07:00:49 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by bmartuch:
Like I've said before, If you have an average vote cast of 4.0 or lower, you are saying that "on the average", every picture is a 4 and every picture is sub par. I just can't believe that anyone could think that way. Would these same people be happy if they got all 4's? |
Ask agenkin. That's precisely what he does and he seems fine with it.
The good news is that people who have a voting scale skewed so low are voting such across the board, not just on your individual photo. If you follow the scores threads, you'll notice that the "trolls" seem to come in waves. So someone voting on a lower scale just happens to be rolling through the photos just then and hits everyone roughly equally. It all evens out and the good pictures will win and the bad pictures will not, just as it should be. |
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11/15/2006 10:36:15 PM · #67 |
Hmm...
Maybe I'm not doing my judging correctly.
I have the scale right and as long as I don't skew it by saying arbitrarily that I won't vote a 2 or 3, I have, then the thing I need to change is my criteria. I thought that I was supposed to try and judge the picture by what its intent *conveyed* is as I see it and how it meets the challenge through its intent and execution.
Therefore, technical aspects such as focus, contrast, saturation, alignment, composition, and shadows/light IMO need to be considered.
That's just my understanding.
So.....to use my opinion and tastes totally subjectively seems to me to sort of defeat the purpose of the challenge.
And as far as getting any helpful input, how is someone's taste supposed to help anyone with their skills?
I don't know how some people think. I guess we all have our ideas as to what makes a good photo and what doesn't.
BTW, just from the pedantic department, this pic. the #1 pic of the "Best of 2005" challenge got a 7.9874.
//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=281896
105 - 10s, 89 - 9s, 109 - 8s, 89 - 7s.......1 - 2, and 2 - 3s
This is what I mean by voting that makes no sense.
I think we can all agree how rare it is that over 100 people would give a perfect score......how on any level can a photograph that good *EVER* be a 2 in anyone's mind?
I have learned something about the different takes on voting through this thread......and if anything, it has taught me to be more careful in the votes I make, and certainly not lose any sleep over what I get.
Message edited by author 2006-11-15 22:38:26.
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11/15/2006 10:54:00 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
how on any level can a photograph that good *EVER* be a 2 in anyone's mind? |
They can think it's ugly. Pretty simple really. |
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11/15/2006 11:14:14 PM · #69 |
edit: did not read post correctly. Deleted comments.
Message edited by author 2006-11-15 23:18:26.
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11/16/2006 07:10:48 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by TechnoShroom:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
how on any level can a photograph that good *EVER* be a 2 in anyone's mind? |
They can think it's ugly. Pretty simple really. |
And that's the crux of the whole issue from the word go for me.
Shouldn't the photo be judged on its merits as a photograph at least as much as its subjective appeal?
Well......I've beaten this dead horse as much as I can trying to understand the troll issue.
Thanks for all your input......I guess I'll just never understand some people.
Message edited by author 2006-11-16 07:15:21.
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11/16/2006 10:42:53 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Shouldn't the photo be judged on its merits as a photograph at least as much as its subjective appeal? |
A technically perfect photo of a turd would still be a photo of a turd would it not?
The two go hand in hand. One is going to weigh more heavily than the other depending on the perspective of the viewer. Valuing either more and arriving at a low score doesn't make one a troll.
Message edited by author 2006-11-16 10:44:30. |
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11/18/2006 11:35:43 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by TechnoShroom:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Shouldn't the photo be judged on its merits as a photograph at least as much as its subjective appeal? |
A technically perfect photo of a turd would still be a photo of a turd would it not?
The two go hand in hand. One is going to weigh more heavily than the other depending on the perspective of the viewer. Valuing either more and arriving at a low score doesn't make one a troll. |
And if the challenge was "Excrement Occurs", then it should do better than a 1 or a 2.
That's what I was referring to about that pic that got 105 10s.
The second place picture did absolutely NOTHING for me on a subjective level, and were I to get pedantic about it, I could tear it down to a 4 or maybe even a three if I was basing my voting subjectively, but voting the pic on its merits, I could not give it anything below a 5. The WOW! factor wasn't there for me.....it obviously was for a lot of people or it would not have made it to second.
And yes, voting something with an abysmally low score simply because you don't like it regardless of its having met the challenge and being technically correct absolutely, categorically, and emphatically *IS* being a troll.
But that's just my opinion based on my perception of how voting should be done.
Isn't this the basic format that I keep seeing here and there?
Meets Challenge - 2
Creativity - 2
Technical Stuff - 2
Overall Appeal - 2
Biased Wow - 1
Total = 9
So, if you have a zero for a biased wow, a zero for overall appeal, and a zero for creative appeal, but it still met the challenge and it was technically correct, the turd pic should still do a 4 if you're being honest.
I know I'm swimming upstream here, but these examples I keep getting thrown don't exactly cut it as even a rationale for this behavior much less as justification or even excuse it.
I guess I just need to let it go; people are gonna do what they wanna do, and just do my best to vote with consideration and a conscience.
I can do that! 8>)
Oh, and in case anyone wonders.....these are my numbers.
Avg Vote Cast: 5.8951
Avg Vote Received: 4.7670
I see a lot of better stuff than what I submit and I do pass on some to the next pic if I think I'm not the right person to vote on a shot.
Some shots I just don't get or in some cases can't even figure out what they are.
So I take a pass and vote the next one.
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11/19/2006 02:31:11 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
And if the challenge was "Excrement Occurs", then it should do better than a 1 or a 2. |
Perhaps or perhaps not. Depends on the photo and the voter.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
And yes, voting something with an abysmally low score simply because you don't like it regardless of its having met the challenge and being technically correct absolutely, categorically, and emphatically *IS* being a troll. |
No.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Isn't this the basic format that I keep seeing here and there?
Meets Challenge - 2
Creativity - 2
Technical Stuff - 2
Overall Appeal - 2
Biased Wow - 1
Total = 9 |
This is a format a select few claim to use. I would wager it's not even a full percentage point of voters who use a "system" like this to vote.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
...people are gonna do what they wanna do, and just do my best to vote with consideration and a conscience.
I can do that! 8>) |
Yes, you should vote as you see fit. Others should vote as they see fit.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I see a lot of better stuff than what I submit and I do pass on some to the next pic if I think I'm not the right person to vote on a shot. ... So I take a pass and vote the next one. |
As the viewer, you're always the right person to vote on a photo. After all the challenges are nothing more than a poll of your opinions. |
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